Americans Hopeful This Will Be Last Mass Shooting Before They Stop On Their Own For No Reason

a reply to: Gryphon66

I'd also add that not every problem needs a solution. Sometimes problems already have solutions. In this case, it could be that the weapons used are illegal entirely. The solution is in place, but didn't work.

Maybe the solution should be to not push an agenda and earn the trust of people that are being argued against. Because lord knows the usual cast has been making increased calls for gun control. It defies logic.

a reply to: Finspiracy

You're right. Stripping away at our freedoms is not a punishment......

a reply to: MOMof3

Yes and there is a process to Amend the Constitution. Until that is done ... the 2nd is part of it.

a reply to: Gryphon66

No doubt, no doubt and by the way I agree with you 100% we have to take a step back and talk to each other and find a common path forward.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: Wayfarer

So you have faith in the Fed to remove a constitutional right, and not over reach with maybe the first, or finish the death of the 4th?

Yes. Neither of what you referenced are killing people wholesale. Are you ok with innocent people dying so that you may own a gun? How many is too many then?

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

I'd also add that not every problem needs a solution.

Are you saying that this problem doesn't need a solution? Or has a solution (which is clearly not working)?

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: Gryphon66

No doubt, no doubt and by the way I agree with you 100% we have to take a step back and talk to each other and find a common path forward.

On more than just this issue. We need to ask ourselves why we only concentrate on the items we disagree on, rather than finding the ones we agree on.

It's my contention that we are/have been conditioned to this circumstance, and if we are going to be angry at anyone or hate anyone, it is, for lack of a better term, TPTB.

Our Constitution is clear. Americans have a Right to Carry that is as sacrosanct as any other.

a reply to: Gaspode

The truth is sometimes hard to accept. The truth is two fold, 1) you gotta gun problem in the form of any crook or crackpot can get a gun regardless of what laws you pass, and 2) you got far more than your share of hateful, evil, twisted psychopaths in your country. So much more than other countries that its fair to say that US is a society that breeds psychopathy and evil.

You gotta serious, chronic and growing "people" problem.

a reply to: joemoe

Amendments do not remove the law or right.

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: Wayfarer

So you have faith in the Fed to remove a constitutional right, and not over reach with maybe the first, or finish the death of the 4th?

Yes. Neither of what you referenced are killing people wholesale. Are you ok with innocent people dying so that you may own a gun? How many is too many then?

That's not a fair statement.

As has been pointed out to everyone, there are plenty of ways to kill people, and even kill people in large numbers without the use of a gun.

Vehicles plowing through crowds.

Pipe bombs and can be made with everyday items bought from a store with no license required.

The problem is not guns.

The problem is people who want to kill or go out with a bang.

You say you want to find a solution: yet you insist that the problem has to be guns.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I'd like to highlight this if I may. We are being conditioned, as a nation, into absolutism. We are going to have to turn this trend around, as a People, and start compromising to find actual solutions to actual problems ... or we are lost.

IMO

Very well said -- and I agree totally.

I would add that we are being conditioned -- and almost forced -- into looking at our fellow people as bits and parts. Whether it's our race, gender, religion, politics, and on and on... it goes beyond party politics, even identity politics. We cannot look at others as a wonderful combination of many qualities. We're forced to pick one characteristic and think of that as the whole.

And it doesn't work.

originally posted by: Gaspode
But isn't there middle-ground on the issue? If we take gun control off the table for the sake of the second amendment and gun owners, what alternatives are there? Or is mass shootings (and gun violence) now just part of our daily lives? Just another daily occurrence we have to live with?

Number one, mass shootings--REAL mass shootings, where the intent is the massive deaths of innocent people--are exceptionally few and far between, but since we live in a country where a mass shooting is defined as 'four or more people,' we get a massive number of "mass shootings" listed and reported. But the reality is that "mass shooting" is a term used to elicit emotion and incite knee-jerk reactions, as we're seeing after this actual mass shooting.

But the reality is that we already are living in a world of "middle ground," where we have a Second Amendment that tells us that our right to keep and bear arms "shall not be infringed," yet we as a nation have allowed such infringements in the name of middle ground. We must undergo federal background checks; we have instances that bar citizens from gun purchases and ownership; we allow states to determine the ability of an individual to carry their firearms in public; some states allow private companies to determine if said carrying is lawful in their establishments; the federal government bars weapons on their property; there are some limitations on magazine capacity in some states; we have to have special licenses and pay special fees in order to own certain weapons; states are allowed to tell us how we must store weapons in our own homes and vehicles, etc., etc.

How people can say that we don't have a middle ground when it comes to a nation whose citizenry has a right to keep and bear arms is an affront to both logic and reality.

People die in cars - car manufacturers make cars safer, speed limits and other road laws are applied by the government and so on.
People die at the work place - better health and safety measures are put in place to protect workers.
Safety measures are put in place wherever human lives are lost.
Except when it comes to guns. Because you know, second amendment.

Your arguments is absolutely flawed, and I've already stated a few of the said safety measures put in place already.

And yet, people still die in cars, people still die in workplace accidents, and people still die at the hands of myriad things that are supposedly safe--yet, none of the things that you mention are a right. We don't have a right to own a car or hold a job, yet we do absolutely have a solidified right to keep and bear arms.

You say, "Because, you know, second amendment," as if our constitution shouldn't mean anything, or that the second amendment has something wrong with it. You can belittle it all that you want to, but if you would educate yourself a bit better on what often happens to countries who do not have a right to keep and bear arms, and educate yourself on the basis of why the founding fathers included this as the second amendment, you might not be so dismissive of the second amendment and use it as a sarcastic, passive-aggressive point in your crusade for a "middle ground" (that, again, already exists).

So leaving the gun control discussions up to the multitude of other threads, what is left? When will this be the last one?

Or are we praying this will finally be the time this issue just disappears forever entirely by itself without anyone doing anything - as The Onion suggests?

You can't pen an OP that alludes heavily to gun control and then pretend that you don't want this thread to discuss gun control.

The reality of life is that there will never be a "last one" of anything, but it's obvious that laws and government control mean nothing. The Mandalay Bay has a strict no-weapons policy on their property, yet that was ignored. It is already unlawful to fire any firearm within the city limits of Las Vegas ("except in a regular licensed shooting gallery"), yet that law was ignored. It is illegal to destroy someone else's property, but the shooter broke out windows in his room, ignoring that law. It is illegal to own/possess a "Class III" firearm without a license...it's possible that he ignored that law, but that is unclear. And then there's the biggie: It is absolutely illegal to murder and assault people, yet this f*cker ignored these laws and destroyed the lives of 59 people and caused injury to 500+ more people through his actions.

So, please, in all of the grand wisdom of those calling for stricter gun control measures, how would one more law have stopped this guy from doing what he did?

The short answer is, it wouldn't, but stricter gun control measures will absolutely steepen the problem for law-abiding people to practice their second-amendment rights and protect themselves and their families.

Destruction of human life will always be a thing as long as humans are on this planet--if you are unwilling to accept this, or willing to thing that controlling firearms even further is going to change that, I don't think that you have a grasp on reality or history.

a reply to: TerminalVelocity

Guns are the easiest way to achieve that. So you are arguing that because people can find other (usually more difficult) ways to kill lots of people that its not worthwhile to limit the easiest ways to do so?

originally posted by: Gaspode

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

I'd also add that not every problem needs a solution.

Are you saying that this problem doesn't need a solution? Or has a solution (which is clearly not working)?

How many people were murdered Sunday in America?

Concentrating on peak anomalies (massacres) as more important than what happens every day is really just giving in to another control mechanism.

By the way, based on averages, 43 people died Sunday from murder. And 43 on Monday. And 43 today, and tomorrow and so on.

The question that needs answering is WHY ARE WE KILLING EACH OTHER?

a reply to: Boadicea

Spot on, as usual.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Gryphon66

I'd also add that not every problem needs a solution. Sometimes problems already have solutions. In this case, it could be that the weapons used are illegal entirely. The solution is in place, but didn't work.

Maybe the solution should be to not push an agenda and earn the trust of people that are being argued against. Because lord knows the usual cast has been making increased calls for gun control. It defies logic.

I've argued for gun control in the past. I've been part of that "usual cast." I've realized, however, that the guns are not the issue. As surely as the NRA has had an enormous effect on our national consciousness in the promotion of weapons and firearms sales, the other side (which is not so obvious) is working just as hard to convince us that the weapons themselves are the problem, that we can just ignore our Constitution this one time to make things safer.

BS.

My current thinking has returned to what I believed as a teenager. We all need to carry. Every citizen. We need to be trained in personal defense (and offense) just as surely as we are trained to read and write. We need to understand that death can be present for us at any moment. We're sold an illusion that if we do A, B or C that we're somehow protected or made immune from the immediacy of life and death.

Every adult carries a sidearm, minimum. I can guarantee that the levels of good manners and decorum would skyrocket ... after we cleaned up the initial mess.

a reply to: Gryphon66

100% in line with your thinking there, its one of the reasons I walked away from the republicans and democrats.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

My current thinking has returned to what I believed as a teenager. We all need to carry. Every citizen. We need to be trained in personal defense (and offense) just as surely as we are trained to read and write. We need to understand that death can be present for us at any moment. We're sold an illusion that if we do A, B or C that we're somehow protected or made immune from the immediacy of life and death.

Every adult carries a sidearm, minimum. I can guarantee that the levels of good manners and decorum would skyrocket ... after we cleaned up the initial mess.

Are you saying you think there would be less gun shootings with this approach? Can you explain in this most recent situation in Las Vegas how your ideal scenario would play out?

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: Gryphon66

100% in line with your thinking there, its one of the reasons I walked away from the republicans and democrats.

Something I am in the process of (again), and something that we all must do (soon).

a reply to: Wayfarer

Guns may not always be the easiest way.

Ban all guns, and set aside the FACT that anyone can still obtain a firearm illegally: you have two things:

1) The internet.
2) Access to common everyday things that can be turned into a weapon.

Number one helps people to learn how to do something. In fact, you can learn how to do just about anything with the power of all the information located on the internet.

Number two: Do you have any idea how many things that our out there that are not controlled items that when put together right can make a pretty good bomb? Either one that explodes, one that ignites (thermal), or one that released chemical compounds that can burn people or destroy their ability to breath?

So you succeeded in banning all fire arms....and the ammo...you'll have to to. Do you have any idea what you can do with gun powder?

Oooooh wait......... fire works. You're going to have to make those illegal too......again.......gun powder.

LV was not a sudden crime of passion. LV was planned. It's quite obvious this was not a hot head that was walking around with a gun and suddenly lost it. This was a person who planned what they did, and took the time to make it happen.

Anyone that is that determined would still do it, even without guns. Guns may have made it slightly easier, but not having guns would not in any way, shape or form prevented this individual from killing a lot of people if he was that determined in the first place.

Again: the problem isn't guns. The problem is people.