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originally posted by: [post=22736344]UKTruth
As for the broader issue of gun crime, if that is what you meant, then the solutions (IMO) do not have anything to do with gun laws - rather fixing the environment and living conditions of millions of people who are not given the same opportunities as others.
originally posted by: Gaspode
a reply to: SlapMonkey
Thank you for your gracious post and apology. And I apologize for my frustration getting the better of me.
These are emotional times - for me; I'm sure for most people.
My opening post is as much a rhetorical as a philosophical question. It is also a challenge: Gun control? Is that really the best or only solution anyone can come up with? Or should I rather ask - is that the best the politicians can come up with? Do they really care? You and I - our friends and family - we're the ones that have to sit in a movie theater with the chance of getting shot up by a nutjob. We have to send our kids to school with the knowledge that some moody emo teenager might have a bad day and kill our children. We are to ones going to concerts, to have fun and relax and enjoy freedom but may face a storm of bullets. There were 22 000+ people that could do nothing to stop it. 60 are no more. 500 have scars. Thousands of lives were changed forever.
Are we going to do nothing until the next one and we can have this discussion again?
Or can we at the very least agree that we can't do nothing?
originally posted by: SlapMonkey
originally posted by: Gaspode
a reply to: SlapMonkey
Thank you for your gracious post and apology. And I apologize for my frustration getting the better of me.
These are emotional times - for me; I'm sure for most people.
That's 0.000001% of the population that will commit these horrendous acts in any given 365-day period.
So, what laws should be passed that negatively affects most law-abiding citizens' rights to purchase and own tools that they will never use with evil intent or to take a life in order to MAYBE (but probably not) stop murderous crazies from doing this stuff?
I submit that the answer is: None. There are no laws that will stop this, but they will disproportionately affect law-abiding citizens' rights.
originally posted by: Wayfarer
Just so I'm clear, I have seen 3 unique opinions in this thread from individuals in support of guns rights regarding the recent tragedy in LV as well as the issue as a whole:
1. Do nothing - There are no amount of deaths, no limit to mass shootings that should in any way/shape/form limit/hinder/modify the existing gun laws or infringe in any way upon the 2nd amendment. Americans must simply become desensitized to the violence so we stop viewing it as a 'bad' thing and rather just accept it as a way of life.
2. Increase the proliferation of guns / relax the restrictions on guns - by adding more guns into the mix, we increase the odds that a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun.
3. Focus on increasing healthcare/mental health services to ameliorate some of the causal factors that drive people to commit gun violence.
Personally I find the first 2 options abhorrent, and they've been talked to death already (in this thread and countless others of the last couple of days). The third option actually has some mass appeal, if only because its a net positive in all cases. Are there individuals here that support the third option as the best yet still vote for politicians that work to remove/reduce/limit access to healthcare (mental or otherwise), or is it partly due to the nature of the political divide that the type of politicians that support the third option tend to be against the first 2, and therefore those who do in fact think option 3 is the best approach feel hamstrung in their voting choices and side with some principle therein of options 1 or 2 as being intrinsically more important?
originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
originally posted by: Wayfarer
Just so I'm clear, I have seen 3 unique opinions in this thread from individuals in support of guns rights regarding the recent tragedy in LV as well as the issue as a whole:
1. Do nothing - There are no amount of deaths, no limit to mass shootings that should in any way/shape/form limit/hinder/modify the existing gun laws or infringe in any way upon the 2nd amendment. Americans must simply become desensitized to the violence so we stop viewing it as a 'bad' thing and rather just accept it as a way of life.
2. Increase the proliferation of guns / relax the restrictions on guns - by adding more guns into the mix, we increase the odds that a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun.
3. Focus on increasing healthcare/mental health services to ameliorate some of the causal factors that drive people to commit gun violence.
Personally I find the first 2 options abhorrent, and they've been talked to death already (in this thread and countless others of the last couple of days). The third option actually has some mass appeal, if only because its a net positive in all cases. Are there individuals here that support the third option as the best yet still vote for politicians that work to remove/reduce/limit access to healthcare (mental or otherwise), or is it partly due to the nature of the political divide that the type of politicians that support the third option tend to be against the first 2, and therefore those who do in fact think option 3 is the best approach feel hamstrung in their voting choices and side with some principle therein of options 1 or 2 as being intrinsically more important?
Start with the victims of 43% of the gun deaths in the US: veterans. 43% of all gun deaths in America are due to Veterans taking their own lives.
originally posted by: Wayfarer
originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
originally posted by: Wayfarer
Just so I'm clear, I have seen 3 unique opinions in this thread from individuals in support of guns rights regarding the recent tragedy in LV as well as the issue as a whole:
1. Do nothing - There are no amount of deaths, no limit to mass shootings that should in any way/shape/form limit/hinder/modify the existing gun laws or infringe in any way upon the 2nd amendment. Americans must simply become desensitized to the violence so we stop viewing it as a 'bad' thing and rather just accept it as a way of life.
2. Increase the proliferation of guns / relax the restrictions on guns - by adding more guns into the mix, we increase the odds that a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun.
3. Focus on increasing healthcare/mental health services to ameliorate some of the causal factors that drive people to commit gun violence.
Personally I find the first 2 options abhorrent, and they've been talked to death already (in this thread and countless others of the last couple of days). The third option actually has some mass appeal, if only because its a net positive in all cases. Are there individuals here that support the third option as the best yet still vote for politicians that work to remove/reduce/limit access to healthcare (mental or otherwise), or is it partly due to the nature of the political divide that the type of politicians that support the third option tend to be against the first 2, and therefore those who do in fact think option 3 is the best approach feel hamstrung in their voting choices and side with some principle therein of options 1 or 2 as being intrinsically more important?
Start with the victims of 43% of the gun deaths in the US: veterans. 43% of all gun deaths in America are due to Veterans taking their own lives.
You've brought this up a lot, and I literally can't recall a single individual on this forum or any other that would argue against increasing financial & medical support for our veterans. I think you're preaching to the choir here.
But in the case of LV the 200+ deathcount was not veteran suicide, so I think the thrust of what we're discussing here are approaches to gun control that may possibly reduce that type of gun violence/mass shootings.
originally posted by: Gaspode
There must be a reason to have a right. A right needs to be justified. If I told you I have a right to have access to free Internet, your first question is going to be “Why”? You can’t simply claim a right without reason.
I would however like to point out that due to the constant rise of suicide, measures have been placed to try and prevent it. Suicide hotlines, therapists, general awareness on what the signs of depression are, and so on. They may not be 100% effective, but we do know of many success stories. It is probably impossible to imagine what the statistics would have been if there were NO suicide prevention measures in place. What we do know is that the solution was not immediately “gun control” because people were able to recognise that those that want to commit suicide will do so with or without a gun.
If you were given the opportunity to save a single human life - that is 0.000000001343724805159903% of the earth’s population – by some action you take, would you do it?
You are using a stupid index and you can't admit your error.
There is zero account taken for variables such as population densities, large urbanisations or poverty. Using it to compare countries and conclude on the question at hand is nonsense.
originally posted by: Involutionist
Again, when weighed PER CAPITA, American has the highest rate of gun violence. How come...?
originally posted by: SlapMonkey
The problem with this question, though, is that it reaches out for emotional reactions instead of logical responses, but I'll attempt some logical thought.
originally posted by: SlapMonkey
I must cite human nature and the entire history of the human race -
The common occurrence between all of these instances is a deranged psychopath who will not stop until they find a means to their deranged end, which is mass destruction of human lives.
This is not something that can be legislated away--hell, even if we pinpointed the genetic marker that was the DNA culprit that causes people to do this, what would we do then? Would we cull that population at birth because they might one day do something horrendous?
For me, the long and the short of it boils down to whether we want to live in a free society or if we want to be so burdened by laws and regulations that are in the name of the "greater good"--even though said laws relate to something so statistically miniscule--that it makes the over-arching legislation negatively affect more law-abiding citizens than it positively affects the nation as a whole.
If you look at it objectively, the numbers don't lie: In a country with at least 323-Million people (and an additional estimated 11-Million illegal immigrants), the frequency of these nutbags that do these mass killings is fantastically low. Real mass shootings--not the loosely defined "four people killed or injured," but true, evil mass shootings--happen relatively rarely. But, let's say that it happens once a day on average (which it doesn't) by uniquely different people, that's still only 365 people out of about 330-Million.
That's 0.000001% of the population that will commit these horrendous acts in any given 365-day period.
So, what laws should be passed that negatively affects most law-abiding citizens' rights to purchase and own tools that they will never use with evil intent or to take a life in order to MAYBE (but probably not) stop murderous crazies from doing this stuff?
I submit that the answer is: None. There are no laws that will stop this, but they will disproportionately affect law-abiding citizens' rights.
I would propose a different question: Are we ever going to admit and accept that doing something for the sake of doing something will not stop the flawed individuals existing in humanity from doing their best do to their worst?
Look, I don't claim to have all of the answers, but I do know bad "solutions" when I see them, and nearly every single proposition that surrounds these violent acts are terrible approaches that will do little-to-nothing to inhibit or stop future incidents.
originally posted by: SlapMonkey
The difference between hotlines and therapists and awareness is that this is all done without government, for the most part--or, at least, it can be. There doesn't need to be legislation passed in order to do that.
These things exists for psychopaths as well, except maybe not dedicated hotlines. Maybe this is working better than we know, but there's no way to track how many people have been "therapied" out of doing something like Vegas or Orlando, so we'll never really know.
I know that all of these comments were directed to the 800-pound gorilla in the room, but some of them I want to chime in on--I hope that you don't mind.
As far as this question goes, it's about weighing the effects, and if the thing that is being proposed that might save a human life negatively affects 323.1-Million other people by negating their rights, the answer should be an obvious and emphatic "No!," even as heartless as it sounds and how hard that decision might be to live with on some level.
And that's the crux of the issue: Do we make massively important decisions with our hearts, or with our minds? Sometimes the best thing to do has consequences that may end up being measured in dead bodies, and that's unfortunate, but the reality of life and being a society and living on a world with differing beliefs and cultures, there will never be a 100% safe, one-size-fits-all solution to any problem, including that of mass murderers. Like I said in my other recent post to you, you cannot legislate away that which exists in the hearts and minds of people.
I am not willing to trade or negatively affect the rights of hundreds of millions of people to save the life of one or a few. Some may say that this approach lacks sympathy or empathy, but it doesn't, it's just more heavily considered with logic. That doesn't mean that it's an easy approach to take with this issue.
originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
...
The reason for the Bill of Rights is essentially to ensure that the tyranny that Europe brought upon its people was not brought upon Americans. It defines what is "American". Our voice is given to us by God (or we were naturally imbued with a voice, however your religious pendulum swings), and no man has a right to silence it without invoking a tyranny.
Man must be capable of self defense, not trying to fend off soldiers trying to rape their wives, or wolves eat their livestock (or, in modern times, having psycho serial ripper come in your house, or coyotes trying to eat your livestock). We were not gifted with strong bodies like the animals, but we gifted with a strong mind to make tools for defense. These are "arms", and we are naturally given the right to defend ourselves to the best of human ability. You never know in rural areas what kind of defense someone will need to put up and lord knows the sheriff isn't only minutes away.
Those rights have a reason, and are mostly based in natural law (which predates the colonies by quite a bit).
RE: your final point....my guns and me have not, and will not shoot someone in a movie theater. I fail to see how that is relevant. I know that Holmes was an asshole, and did just that. I didn't, and have done nothing to indicate that I would ever bring harm to someone else. I won't even kill insects in my home (they get put back outside where they came from).