Active Shooter Las Vegas, Mandalay Bay

a reply to: JinMI

Yep that is odd, you made me take another look at that rifle over his foot, i had it in mind the muzzle was resting on the chair, your correct its on a bi-pod.

hmm back to the revolver maybe. He is laying half on a rifle with his left hand across the butt of it, though its difficult for me to imagine how it got in that position, if this was the weapon also.

So much for giving anyone doubt if you cant talk about the scene. Off to bed.

a reply to: Diabolical1972

I think Gem was indicating that no images or links to can be shared. That's the way I understand the T&C's anyway.

a reply to: Diabolical1972

Yes, JinMI is correct. You can discuss the scene/images to your heart's desire. Just don't post any images that contains gore or dead bodies.


(I think people are smart enough to find the images by themselves should they wish to see it.)

a reply to: TrueBrit

When someone dies suddenly gravity takes over asap. The whole body colapses at the same time and fals down.
If this person shot himdelf in the head the Weight of his whole arme would force the whole arm downwards asap. The rest energi from the gun would probably only add motion to the wrist gripping the gun. The gun should not have been laying abowe his head but rather it should have been more beside him. Because gravity pull everything streight down.

The other think is that when death suddenly happeneds a person standing, the persons head Often fall forwrards, bringing the upper part of the body forwards as well, and you collapse towards your knees.

a reply to: spy66

Gravity does, but fulcrum and pivot and moment are involved here. Gravity was not the only active force in this process.

a reply to: TrueBrit

It is when death suddenly happeneds. It will be bodyweight compared to the mass of the gun.

A hand gun and its rest energy will never move a dead body arround. Not even the arm because the arm is to heavy in dead state.

a reply to: spy66

Recoil energy, however, will throw an arm around.

It happens all the time. If you want an example which correctly demonstrates how much a recoil will move a person around, try watching an inexperienced shooter keep hold of a .357 unaided.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Yeah, but that person is alive. That is a big difference compared to dead Weight.

A live person vil automatically react to shock. Dead mass will not.

a reply to: spy66

Dead mass will not, you are right. There is less resistance, so all you have to think about is recoil force, which is more than enough to throw an arm through an arc.

a reply to: TrueBrit

No it is not. The recoil will only move the wrist at most. There would be no active nerves to active any muscels to help creat motion.

Everything will have a downward motion.

What happens to the handgun in the case of a suicide by handgun is a very chancy affair. Sometimes the gun is dropped or the recoil throws it away from the body.
If the the central nervous system (brain, brainstem, spinal cord) is affected either by direct action or through hydrostatic shock, the arm/hand might be drawn in towards the body and the hand may tighten... or might not.

Judging by the stain on the front of the shirt that is shaped like the revolver, I would say that the hand tightened and the arm drew in to the chest.

Regarding the leg and the rifle, the legs can quiver and kick involuntarily (death throes) after the shot is fired. The gun may have been standing against something and was kicked, causing it to fall.

Far too many possibilities with no way to prove what occurred without viewing a video.... if one exists.

Here is some statistical info: NCBI

The location of the gun following suicidal gunshot wound was studied by reviewing 574 such deaths in which the scene was investigated by a medical examiner investigator and the body was examined at the Bexar County Medical Examiner's Office in San Antonio, Texas. The position of the gun could not be established in 76 cases. In the remaining 498 cases, the gun remained in the deceased's hand in 24% of the cases. In 69% of the cases, the gun was on or near the body but not in the hand (i.e., touching the body or within 30 cm of the body). The gun was found >30 cm from the body in the remaining 7% of cases. In the case of handguns, the gun was found in the hand in 25.7% of individuals. For individuals using long guns, the firearm was in the hand of the decedent in 19.5% of cases. The gun had a greater chance of remaining in the deceased's hand if the person was lying or sitting when the gunshot wound was received. Variables such as gender of the individual, wound location, and caliber of handgun were not significant in predicting whether the gun stayed in the hand after a suicidal gunshot wound.

From this, we see a one in four chance that the gun remains in the hand.

a reply to: butcherguy

It only looks like the arm would be moving towards the body do to gravity. So how this would look/be depeneds on the position of the arm.

When the light goes out there is no reaction, there are no active nerves.
People who have seen sudden death knows that the body falls like a sack of potatoes. And that any motion if any comes After the fall.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: TrueBrit

It is when death suddenly happeneds. It will be bodyweight compared to the mass of the gun.

A hand gun and its rest energy will never move a dead body arround. Not even the arm because the arm is to heavy in dead state.

Have you ever shot a gun? The recoil moves you even when you have muscles and all the weight of the arm holding it still... maybe you should take a look at some of the kinetic energy that is released in recoil alone..

a reply to: spy66

When the light goes out there is no reaction, there are no active nerves.

That all depends on the location of the wound.

I have provided statistical info regarding the question of whether the gun stays in the hand or not.

25% chance that a handgun stays in the hand after the suicide.

a reply to: Konduit

i hate to feed the trolls, and i'm not going to go back through the thread and see if someone has posted about it.
but does anyone find it strange, or can they explain ( other than it being a posed image by the cops), how he shot himself
and not knock the rifle over that is over his foot in that photo.

i suppose he could have been sitting on his butt with his legs stretched out, just seem unnatural.

a reply to: butcherguy

I agree. I mentioned earlier that the handgun should be beside him not abowe his head.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: butcherguy

I agree. I mentioned earlier that the handgun should be beside him not abowe his head.

I think it was moved from his chest by the SWAT team to clear it away from the shooter until he was certified to be dead. I have not read anywhere that this didn't happen, and it is SOP for cops to do that.

a reply to: spy66

When the light goes out there is no reaction, there are no active nerves.

ever heard of a T Zone Shot, it is the area from the outside corners of the eyes to the upper lip.
in a hostage crisis situation snipers often aim there to prevent involuntary muscle contraction, signals are still travel through the body when the moment of death happens and it is not unusual for contraction or other body moment to occur.