Originally posted by Estragon
Estragon is not an American and has no interest other than the historical, political and intellectual, in either party ( though I'll admit that, were I one of the citizenry of the second most populous of our former colonies, I'd vote GOP).

That has always been obvious, dear Estragon, to everyone but you, on occassion!

The back & forth over Election Theft 2000 is now and always should be an open topic of debate: no clear cut resolution ( the type that both sides acknowledge), has ever been proffered.

Thomas - wake up already - the US media, as regulary pointed out by the rest of the world's media - is in colusion with the Republican power brokers that helped to install the least qualified candidate - GW Bush. Your continued denial of that fact is starting to border on ignorant, and I'd hate to think that of you!

If I was them ( The Democrats ) I would say Euro-Americans. They'd have more votes.

[Edited on 7-7-2003 by ultra_phoenix]

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix

I think when you give some specials rights to an ethnic group ( blacks, whites, yellows...pick up the color you want ), it's an advantage for this group, but in the same time, it's a disadvantage for the others groups who don't receive the same advantage.

UP:
You know in a perfect world with perfect people i would totally agree with you...and i personally am not a fan of AAP...reality is a pimp. the world we americans live in is a world full of racist. there are two types--those that know and acknowledge they are racist--and those that don't and get defensive when you tell them they have racist ideals. if there were no racist then there would be no need for programs like AAP. But reality, there are racist therefore AAP in some form is necessary.

But you didn't ask about AAP you asked about a racist leaning and the leaning had lil to do with whether or not affirmative action is discrimination.

TC: No one is getting special treatment because of the color of their skin. Its the reaction some have to people of color that created the need for these programs. Change the reaction then maybe we can wipe the slate clean. But as long as racist are sitting behind the desk and at the head of the class there will be need for laws against racial discrimination and government intervention in placement and hiring practices.

Originally posted by Saphronia

1) But you didn't ask about AAP you asked about a racist leaning and the leaning had lil to do with whether or not affirmative action is discrimination.

2) TC: No one is getting special treatment because of the color of their skin. Its the reaction some have to people of color that created the need for these programs.

1) I didn't ask what was the NAACP because I knew what was the NAACP. ( National Association for the Advancement of Coloured People ).

2) Ok, it's for TC, but I would like to say something.

In my country, we have 3 community :

The Flemmish, in the North, the Walloon, in the South and the German in the East. Flemmish are speaking Dutch, Walloon French and German, well, German.

We don't have any problems between the Walloons and the German or the Flemmish and the German. But when it comes to the Flemmish and the Walloon...Gee...

I worked with a company, who was based in the North ( and believe me, when you're a Walloon, it's allmost impossible to find a job in the Flemmish area). More than 250 workers. South-Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Singapori, English, Palestinian (1 ), Indians....really a lot of different people from different horizon. Everything was fine. I didn't have any problem with most of the Flemmish (99% ), but I've been in troubles with 3 Flemmish co-workers.

They were all from the Vlaams Block ( a Flemmish far-right Party ). They were hating us ( 2 friends and myself : only 3 walloons for +/- 80 Flemmish ) not because we had a different color skin. We were ( and we are still ) whites men, borned in the same nation as them. No, they were hating us because we were speaking French and not Flemmish.

Racist, and they can be whites, blacks or from an other colors, will have ALLWAYS a " very good reason " to hate someone, "only " because there is a difference. The difference can be in the skin color, the religion or the mother tongue, they don't care. They have their " very good reason ".

My point is that I was very proud to join this company. I didn't ask for any special right or favor. No, I had just the good skills and the good background. I'm really happy that there was no special law ( quota ) to force the company to hire me. If I had to have job, only because there is a special law, I would feel ashamed and diminished.

Also, I've some friends who didn't have a job because the job has been given to an immigrant. Why ? Because of a law. My friends were not racist, but now, some of them are.

I tryed to explain them these immigrants are NOT responsible, but the policy makers who did the law ARE responsible, for what happened. But they don't mind. So, a law has created some new racist.

That's why I don't believe in all these laws. They bend to create more racism problem, when in theory, these laws are there to solve these so-called racism problem.

You'll not eliminate racism with a law. It has to come from the people themselves and NOT from a law.

I hope you have a clear pic of what I mean. I know it's, sometime ( often ? ), not so easy to understand what I mean.

That was very informative U_P, thanks for the knowledge1

It is the same here in regards to immigration and extended benefits including tax deferments also I believe...but AAP does not apply universally in businesses hiring decisions. I think EOE is an incentive more so.
I was a human resource clerk for a mid-size company for a while and we hired a disproportionate # of immigrants with permanent residency of African country origin- I was told by my manager that it "looked good for us" to do so.....

Originally posted by Tyriffic

1) That was very informative U_P, thanks for the knowledge1

2) I was told by my manager that it "looked good for us" to do so.....

1) You're wellcome Tyriffic.

2) Ok. And what did you tell him ? " Sir yes Sir " or something else ?

Actually, it wasn't a command, we we were having conversation and the topic came up concerning the large # of applicants fitting this category...no deep conspiracy!!

wow that is very interesting. i didn't know that? hmmm

(know the topic is dying but i been away for awhile)

UP: AAP=Affirmative Action Plan not to be confused with NAACP--two different things.

As for the "creates new racist" idea. I don't think that affirmative action does that. You have to understand how the plans work to really know who it does and doesn't help. It's not people of color on a large scale in most cases. There is a whole mess of protected groups. Black folk just get the blame for all of it...that's racist...i don't here the racist getting angry that white women are excelling only when its black folk and when we excell it must be part of some program created to "uplift us."

Racist create the need then blame the system. Like I said people are judged by the color of their skin here because of the history of legal discrimination. There are racist that use their position whether they know it or not.

AAP or some other form of leveling is mos def needed for all the protected groups. Only folk without any knowledge of being discriminated against would think otherwise when they look around and see the disproportionate number of white men at the head of every industry in this country. If you think the system is okay then you must think white men are more apt to succeed than any other race, nationality, and gender. That's foolish.

Al Gore is not actually you President.

George Bush Snr is actually running the show.