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The Postmodern Socialist

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posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 12:42 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: solargeddon


Your universal health care employs more people for your tiny island than any other agency except maybe the Chinese military. Oh, sorry, it's the 5th biggest employer with 1.7 million employees. There are 65 million people in the UK.

...

Do you think it's operating at top efficiency with that many employees relative to the population of your island? And how much exactly are paying for all those salaries, pensions, etc., until those employees die? How much is that compared to what is actually being spent to keep you healthy?


The "fifth largest employer in the world" is a canard spread by the people who want to break up the NHS and sell it off to the same financial institutions that run US healthcare. It includes everyone who works for the NHS even if they are not employed by the NHS.

Sod efficiency. That's a management priority.

We want effectiveness. We want to know there's help there when we need it, free at the point of use. On the whole, we get it. The people who are chipping away at the NHS, hamstringing the practitioners, are the same people who want us to believe it's the fifth largest employer in the world.

My GP is wonderful at helping me to manage my health, as was the GP I had before him. I hear the same about other doctors from friends who can be bothered to be proactive about their health. You go, you ask, they help. It's not a national policy priority because the people at the very top think in the short term, financial year to financial year, election to election. Which, again, suits the people who want to sell it off to their pals in the City.

Like Churchill said of democracy, the NHS ain't perfect but the alternatives are far worse.




posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 12:45 PM
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originally posted by: Bone75


Absolutely. I'm just making sure the Kulaks get their fair share of the blame. No one takes them into account when they're throwing death tolls around.

Probably because there are many more Kulaks here than Communists.



A good point well made, Sir.

As we move towards the centenaries of the October Revolution and the Armistice, we'd also do well to remember the barbarism of the White Russians and why Germany capitulated.



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 12:47 PM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope



No, the rest are not reliant on the state. Charity is also available.


Yes, they are reliant on the state because charity cannot come close to providing for people's needs. Charity, at least in this country, is highly corrupt and has been a laughable talking point from pro-capitalists since I can remember.



“Unchecked capitalism”? That sounds like a socialist phrase to me. But there are many indexes of economic freedom available online, and the countries at the top have higher living standards than those at the bottom.


Indeed. And a few countries that use socialist programs are higher on the list than the US.



No they are perfect examples. It's just that you'd prefer to resort to sophistry to hide the facts, likely in a fit of cognitive dissonance.


They are perfect examples if your goal is to provide an elementary argument that does not provide full context of what has occurred in those countries to explain the direction it went.

Sophistry indeed.



The demonstrable facts are available. West and east germany used two very different systems. One collapsed, the other flourished. To dismiss that as a factor is what makes my point about arguing with postmodern socialists quite clear.


One collapsed, the other flourished. Like I said, very elementary argument without much needed context to explain the complex reasons they fell/flourished.

It is a factor, but not the only factor. That is why your point is not very clear.



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 01:19 PM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Someone may have pointed it out but "Capitalism" is really in bed deep with socialist. We have a socialistic mindset driving capital big money bizz decisions, included in costs ect, ect but called something else. Socialism thrives were capital thrives.

Are you really going to take a good look at socialism in america and tell me its really failed? All the tax money hand outs to interested parties including to big to fail this and that? Everyone has the hand in the jar. Its way the working class are like pull mules for the big capital/social bang wagon.



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 01:32 PM
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a reply to: introvert




They are perfect examples if your goal is to provide an elementary argument that does not provide full context of what has occurred in those countries to explain the direction it went.


It is a simple fact that East Germany's economy was outpaced by West Germany's. Not only that but life was so dismal under socialism, that they had to build a wall to keep people from fleeing. People were so desperate to flee that they would risk their lives to do so. People risk the same trying to flee North Korea.



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 01:41 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: introvert




They are perfect examples if your goal is to provide an elementary argument that does not provide full context of what has occurred in those countries to explain the direction it went.


It is a simple fact that East Germany's economy was outpaced by West Germany's. Not only that but life was so dismal under socialism, that they had to build a wall to keep people from fleeing. People were so desperate to flee that they would risk their lives to do so. People risk the same trying to flee North Korea.


Like I said, very elementary argument. There is a lot more context to that particular example that is not being provided.



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 01:47 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
We have over 200 years of evidence suggesting Socialism has failed both in theory and in practice. Perhaps worse than its failure is the destruction, the lost lives, the decades of stifled expression, art, innovation, and the tyranny and totalitarianism left in the wake of its attempted implementations.


True!


Capitalism, their mortal enemy, has only gotten better. It never collapsed as predicted, the proletariat never revolted as predicted, and life under capitalism never got worse as predicted. In fact, the exact opposite occurred. Freedom, opportunity, happiness, and innovation all increased.


True?

Comparing when to when?

During my lifetime...

Crony Corporatism has ever more reigned entirely supreme.

There's been an ever increasing division of the haves and have nots the past 20 years?

Banksterism is running entirely amok.

Massive segments of my entire generation completely dick moved on entirely worthless school loans that carry mandatory wage garnishment repayment.

The elections are 100% hijacked by corporations, collectives of corporate interests, etc. The corporate MSM is completely integrated with the election process and ensures no third parties have an iota of a chance of succeeding, meaning we just keep getting screwed our whole lives, while each year the 'two parties' bases becaome increasingly radicalized in attitude especially with the identity politics the parties have added to where we're now seeing bonafide hyper-bigoted (SJW Supremacy * White Supremacy) increasingly infect the mainstream of both sides to the tune of mob riots, mass murder events, and so on.

Essentially all media (news, newspapers, tv channels, tv shows, radio stations, music industry, etc) owned by 6 megaconglomerations.

High Frequency Stock Trading firms are completely undermining 'all' the regular folks who attempt to participate in the stock market.

Speculators artificially driving up prices like they did the gas "shortage" in 2008 that ensured the engineered housing collapse was effectively a death sentence for 'half' of Middle Class America.

Multi-National Corporations have the same Constitutional Rights as living breathing human being citizens.

Inflation continues to degrade the value of the currency. The wealthy position their loot that they're not effected by it, while the less money people have and make the more it steals the little wealth they do have right out from under them.

Machine automation & AI is increasingly postured to leave few jobs for humans in our immediate future.

Even the Democrat's are selling the US on Corporate Fascism in the name of socialism (as Obamacare is government mandated corporate insurance enforced by an all powerful monolithic centralized government).

Trade organizations (ie WTO) and bogus names "free trade deals" (ie NAFTA) have wiped out our manufacturing here, and drive child and even slave labor abroad.

Shall I go on?

NOTE: Technically I'm not talking about Capitalism. There is some of that around, but Corporatism runs everything. We've been suckered that Capitalism is one in the same as Corporatism. The effect has been that socialist leaning people blame the above sorts of pitfalls on Capitalism, and in response capitalist types defend the likes of said darkness 'because we cant criticize "capitalism"'. In other words, we're all being hoodwinked into fighting each other while we're all being sold down the river together.

The reality of it all is, the more socialism goes towards communism, and the more capitalism goes towards crony corporatism, the more indistinguishable they become.



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 02:15 PM
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originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: introvert




They are perfect examples if your goal is to provide an elementary argument that does not provide full context of what has occurred in those countries to explain the direction it went.


It is a simple fact that East Germany's economy was outpaced by West Germany's. Not only that but life was so dismal under socialism, that they had to build a wall to keep people from fleeing. People were so desperate to flee that they would risk their lives to do so. People risk the same trying to flee North Korea.


Like I said, very elementary argument. There is a lot more context to that particular example that is not being provided.


For instance?



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 02:17 PM
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a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

It's weird right? All those things occur and, still, nothing better has replaced it.



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 02:21 PM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope

As long as the Corporatocracy reigns supreme (mainly because the confusion and division caused by aforementioned indistinctions between Capitalism vs. Crony Corporatism [Fascism]) it'll slide more and more towards the likes of what you get with totalitarian communism. Rejoice!



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 02:25 PM
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originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

As long as the Corporatocracy reigns supreme (mainly because the confusion and division caused by aforementioned indistinctions between Capitalism vs. Crony Corporatism [Fascism]) it'll slide more and more towards the likes of what you get with totalitarian communism. Rejoice!


Anywhere in particular that has proven to be true?



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 02:48 PM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Where has what proven to be true?

My list above is so ubiquitous it just goes without saying.

The liberals / Occupy people / SJW's blame all those pitfalls of unyielding Crony Corporatism on "Capitalism".

So of course the conservatives take defense of said corporatism in the good name of capitalism.

As and such, it seems you're playing dumb in response to my attempt to crack that cold hard iceberg of division?!?!?!?!



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 02:53 PM
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a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

I'm just trying to think of an example of Corporatocracy sliding into something not unlike totalitarian communism.



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 02:57 PM
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"The Postmodern Socialist"

That's an interesting title, I thought, let's go see what's happening.

First sentence: "We have over 200 years of evidence suggesting Socialism has failed both in theory and in practice."

Gave up right there and then.



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 03:03 PM
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originally posted by: audubon
"The Postmodern Socialist"

That's an interesting title, I thought, let's go see what's happening.

First sentence: "We have over 200 years of evidence suggesting Socialism has failed both in theory and in practice."

Gave up right there and then.


That's the first step of the postmodernist method—giving up.



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 03:46 PM
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As it turns out, the postmodern socialist employs the ignorance, sophistry, and the leap of faith, to dispel any criticism and evidence against his beloved worldview. The methods are not innocent—how could they be?—but cynical and Machiavellian.



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 04:11 PM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope

You already replied that you knew it was flawed...Not really sure which side of the argument you are on...

I already pointed out some flaws in previous posts...which you actually responded to.



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 04:48 PM
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originally posted by: kelbtalfenek
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

You already replied that you knew it was flawed...Not really sure which side of the argument you are on...

I already pointed out some flaws in previous posts...which you actually responded to.


I said there were flaws, not that I knew it was flawed. Believe it or not there is a difference.

As for your points, I skipped them because this thread is about socialism, and didn't feel like responding to the deflection.



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 05:02 PM
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originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
The reality of it all is, the more socialism goes towards communism, and the more capitalism goes towards crony corporatism, the more indistinguishable they become.


I tend to agree with you on corporatism. I hear all the criticisms of socialism and communism and I just laugh. We are about as far away from communism as you can get in this country. Wealth inequality is insanely high. Most people in this country if you miss one or two paychecks and you lose your house. If you are one of the lucky ones this place is great! If you are in the bottom 99% not so much. Retirement security, healthcare security, leisure time security are non-existent. We have extreme corporatism in this country where everyone buys products from the same company store. It doesn't matter what you pay in taxes. It doesn't matter how much we spend on socialism. ALL THAT MATTERS IS THE PURCHASING POWER OF YOUR TAKE HOME PAY.

I'm really sick of people making comments like the OP. Money talks everything else is BS. "Socialism" who cares! It's all about the purchasing power.


edit on 23-9-2017 by dfnj2015 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 23 2017 @ 05:16 PM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

The OP couldn't provide an example of actual socialist policies in the US other than cooperative farms.



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