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Spain is dropping the hammer on Catalonia.

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posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 03:11 PM
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a reply to: ufoorbhunter

We didn't let them. We had little choice.

Kraytar, Aden.

As for Catalonia, Spain best remember the brutal history, how these lands are distinctive from Spain and that talks are preferred but violence isn't out of the question.

Spain is hard-balling them. It won't work. Spain needs Catalonia but Catalonia doesn't need Spain.

Decentralisation is the future.

a reply to: tadaman

Yeah... Catalonia would be invaded if it was sovereign. They couldn't field a modern army, they don't have strong connections to a nuclear power to the north and they definitely wouldn't find any support or even membership with NATO.

Pray tell, who would invade them?




posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 03:23 PM
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Is Spain a free, and reasonably democratic, nation? Or not?

Catalonia is, as I understand it, an autonomous state within a greater state? If so, that implies that they may leave if the majority so choose.

The balkanization of Europe continues. I wonder how this trend--is it a trend, yet?--will work out?



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 03:42 PM
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a reply to: RAY1990

When every sub group of Europe follows them, their former countries will go after them, then the strongest power in Europe that still gets oil and food sent to it will dictate terms to all. That is who will take over.

I dont expect a Roman legion or the Gauls to invade, but I do see all that land still retaining its value to everyone still standing.

Hell, France might offer to take them in, and the Basques. Then Spain will go to war with France. A formal war. It has been tried before and that was the avoided consequence.

They are free to live as they please. They dont have the strength to stand alone and so can not provide a barrier to the rest of Europe. Spain can not allow any more of its peninsula to be cut up. Especially at its borders.

I am telling you, Spain is willing to fight. It always will be. Europe will fall into ruin one LAST time.





edit on 9 21 2017 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 04:04 PM
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a reply to: tadaman

Many sub groups are fighting for independence, others are fighting for EU membership. I mean the early 90's saw nationalist movements and war in Europe, maps were even changed.

One thing was certain though. Who the bad guys were and who nearly everybody stood with. European nations are not ran by dictators and despots anymore, it seriously respects human rights and the majority of Europeans are educated to a standard.

Europe won't be carving itself up anytime soon, a lot must happen for the opportunists to even have an opportunity.

Collapse of the European powerhouses.
A want for conquest.
Collapse of human rights.
Lack of education.

I don't see that happening anytime soon.

The fact is the political world has been slow in catching up with the times, political nationalism is a bloated dying horse being beaten to death (a conspiracy?) in the next 50 years nations will have to decentralise power. In most Western nations governmental funding isn't working effectively for regions, with some bankrolling others or some getting an unequal amount of funding.

I see the Swiss system working better and being adopted more in the future, just like how it's cantons are fully autonomous and ran by the people.

I may be wrong. But then decentralisation seems to work.

If Spain or any European nation declares war upon another we won't see Europe in arms, we'll see a pariah nation state.

Just my two pence.



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 04:15 PM
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a reply to: AndyFromMichigan

The hypocrisy of Spain over Gibraltar and Catalonia has reached a new level.



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 04:16 PM
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a reply to: seagull

It's natural social evolution.

More and more people on the same stretch of lands usually equates to the want and need for more autonomous capabilities.

Politically speaking, this has always been a good excuse for a bit of gerrymandering. 1 MP (UK) simply cannot effectively serve 300,000 people.

I think it'll work out fine, considering many of us complain about corruption and how much fat government and bureaucracy has on them.

It could usher in a golden age of commerce. Immigration alone can be a burden on regions whilst being good for the nation as a whole. Consider regions being able to control their own policies to suit their needs.

I'm probably dreaming I know...



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 04:19 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

How would we sanction Spain?

Would the EU be sanctioned or would the EU act on behalf of the world and possibly boot them out?

Serious question.



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 04:21 PM
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a reply to: RAY1990

I can agree with most of that. I just see that things happen faster now.

What used to be a slow process of decline that could be corrected at different stages in the past can happen overnight now.

All power now hinges on the "feeling" of faith in money being backed by these powerful houses. We got a glimpse in 2008 of how far things can go when faith is rocked.

They still hold the ability of checkmate by removing or adding to the money supply. The problem is they expect the people to return to them this time for the solution like always.

Autonomy is a good thing. The problem is that small, entirely free lance states with fickle ties to others will always lead to greater war for all. Europe knows its own history.

I dont think there is a single city left in Europe that hasnt been sacked several times. They should avoid excess in ideology during times of prosperity. They have something that works. Playing with the balance is playing with fire.

If Europe had more guns, the protests now held daily across Europe would be small scale revolutions.

I know no one will listen, but we are being herded into self destruction.

So fat, so comfortable, so wealthy a people and entirely unguarded beyond some BS security forces, like a civilian garrison in the old days....show and nothing more...so very tempting.


edit on 9 21 2017 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 04:27 PM
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originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
a reply to: tadaman

We Brits let all our Empire have self determination,

Last time i checked, The Yanks, the Irish, the south african boers asked the empire if they could leave by shooting the british army in the face. The rest britain had to leave before they got strung up.

ps, Go Catalan.


Not really for the second empire period. Post WW2 the British Empire was well under control, it's true that India was going like it or not, but the rest of the empire was very controllable. Britain was very powerful post 1945 militarily and economically and there was no real threat to its empire from within. Our Empir was destroyed by the Soviets who undermined it from outside through their infiltration of the colonies with new ideas of independence, socialism and revolutionaries training camps etc. There was no prospect of most countries getting independence but the Soviets had turned the mind screw and empire also became incredibly expensive and what for? To control some kak holes in the middle of nowhere. By then our multinationals were strong enough to retain overall control of the economies of much of the post empire with no need for boots on the ground.



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 05:07 PM
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a reply to: tadaman

Things do happen fast.

Money - just like how we lead ourselves, money too will need drastic changes in the future. Let's say all monies collapse at some point, do you not see this if anything enhancing autonomy within regions?

Europe has been sacked a lot, ironically though most of this was done by non-Europeans. We've had many major wars over time and I've come to find that Europe for the most part has held an ideology of "standing off" if France lost too many men of fighting age it could have been invaded by a neighbour, so defeating England means nothing if the Holy Roman Empire came in and steam rolled you over.

Hence all the alliances, hence WWI.

As for guns, Europe has guns, the EU has done good on legislation but it can't take armaments belonging to nations. If their was political need it isn't unheard of for militaries themselves to cause the uprisings, especially in Europe.

Again though, defend against whom?

France and Britain would level Europe if their existence and people faced annihilation. It might be difficult for some to shoot another at 200 yards but MLRS systems, jet fighters and artillery need only coordinates. We are not as undefended as you think.

If Europe imploded, I can all but guarantee you that the likes of Russia, China and even the US would be running around screaming like that hysterical woman at a bar fight. You know the ones, the kind that egg on a fistfight but become hysterical once knives and glasses start piercing skin.

Europe is not pacified and I wouldn't wish to be their enemy.
edit on 21-9-2017 by RAY1990 because: Autocorrect...



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 05:30 PM
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There's no guarantee a Catalonia referendum would return a "leave Spain" vote. Polls have been indecisive. The point the Spanish government have pressed is that Catalonia is part of Spain and running a referendum independently is constitutionally abhorrent.

Anyway, with the Scottish Nationalists running to support the "leave Spain" politicians, we have the Gathering of the Malcontents. What a fun party that would be.



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 05:32 PM
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originally posted by: seagull

The balkanization of Europe continues. I wonder how this trend--is it a trend, yet?--will work out?


A grass roots counter trend to the EU PTB pushing for a USEU with a federal govt and it's own super-army?



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 06:45 PM
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a reply to: tadaman




I am telling you, Spain is willing to fight. It always will be. Europe will fall into ruin one LAST time.


Who are they going to fight? Themselves? Do they want another Franco?



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 06:46 PM
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a reply to: teapot

I read about that "super-army"...

Who's going to be in this army? I can not see France or Germany being willing to go along with this.



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 06:58 PM
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Stupid stupid move, look at history how often has a brutal crackdown on people that want independence worked, it may work for a while but it will lead to further discontent driving people that may be meh on the leave camp into the leave camp.

Sit and talk, use the power of the central govt to make the case for staying etc..

Saddens me loved my trip to that area, good people beautiful land, great food.



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 08:38 PM
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a reply to: seagull

They will fight themselves, any European country or entity and do so regardless of being able to win or not.

It is their disposition. The Spanish mind is geared for war after constant instruction by it.

Spain is also at a tipping point. The people are getting mentally prepared for conflict. They see it as an opportunity. They also dont feel very "European" as much as they feel Iberian. Like it always was for them.

It will take a Hanibal and his war to unite them for more purpose outside of their peninsula.


edit on 9 21 2017 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 08:55 PM
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a reply to: RAY1990

I did not mean to imply that Europe is an open gate militarily. They have defenses and some of the best minds at their command. The population is not armed or mentally fit for conflict. That is a big factor in considering war.

The overall picture to me is that beyond its first wave of regular forces, that it is banking on the show of force of others.

I see it as being like a light garrison at the walls in the old days, marching torches and dolls around the actual defenders to give an impresion of a costly fight should an enemy be watching.

Once the shell cracks, there is a period of time that is needed to gear for war. Europe has scaled down its industry to favor a peace time economy with no regard given to future needs.

Its not like they can replace the soldiers and arms they have should they fail in time for more war.

Do they call China and place an order?

We will all fight eachother. It doesnt matter what first alliances exist. We all lose. This much peace we currently enjoy will bring far worse horrors when we trade it in for something else.

I only advocate for caution. Things happen more than once before people learn. I dont want us to lose yet another civilization before its time.


edit on 9 21 2017 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 22 2017 @ 12:42 AM
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originally posted by: RAY1990
a reply to: seagull

It's natural social evolution.

More and more people on the same stretch of lands usually equates to the want and need for more autonomous capabilities.

Politically speaking, this has always been a good excuse for a bit of gerrymandering. 1 MP (UK) simply cannot effectively serve 300,000 people.

I think it'll work out fine, considering many of us complain about corruption and how much fat government and bureaucracy has on them.

It could usher in a golden age of commerce. Immigration alone can be a burden on regions whilst being good for the nation as a whole. Consider regions being able to control their own policies to suit their needs.

I'm probably dreaming I know...


Catalonia has a population of 7.5 million. Norway has a population of 5 million. Scotland has a population of 5 million. Ireland has a population of 4.773 million. Denmark has a population of 5.73 million. Catalonia has more than enough population to justify being their own country.



posted on Sep, 22 2017 @ 03:13 AM
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originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
a reply to: tadaman

We Brits let all our Empire have self determination,

Last time i checked, The Yanks, the Irish, the south african boers asked the empire if they could leave by shooting the british army in the face. The rest britain had to leave before they got strung up.

ps, Go Catalan.


Not really for the second empire period. Post WW2 the British Empire was well under control, it's true that India was going like it or not, but the rest of the empire was very controllable. Britain was very powerful post 1945 militarily and economically and there was no real threat to its empire from within. Our Empir was destroyed by the Soviets who undermined it from outside through their infiltration of the colonies with new ideas of independence, socialism and revolutionaries training camps etc. There was no prospect of most countries getting independence but the Soviets had turned the mind screw and empire also became incredibly expensive and what for? To control some kak holes in the middle of nowhere. By then our multinationals were strong enough to retain overall control of the economies of much of the post empire with no need for boots on the ground.

Post 1945 Britain was bankrupt. We were called the poor man of Europe for a reason. Ironically our fortunes only took a turn for the better after we joined the Eu in the 70's. As for the Navy, yeah we had built up a massive fleet but seriously negleted it year after year.



posted on Sep, 22 2017 @ 07:18 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



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