Oklahoma City police officer shoots, kills man holding metal pipe

a reply to: norhoc

No. He wasn't blind and stupid. If you read up on the situation, it says that he mostly communicates with his hands. He is also a bit slow. He was apparently trying to communicate with the officers but they took that as a aggressiveness and shot him.

originally posted by: norhoc
a reply to: TobyFlenderson



So again , you were there and know what exactly happened?

I'm usually on the LEO side as well, and while reading your comments you seem emotionally involved in this. step back for a second. You weren't there either. One officer decided to fire his taser. If both did that, perhaps this man would still be alive and just got tased a good bit, but we will never know. Maybe the shooting was totally justified, but until the facts come out, neither outcome that could have happened can be dismissed.

If you are a member of LE, thanks for your service and stay safe.

A couple things worth noting...

According to the NYT article, the man "ambled" off his porch and towards the officers. He didn't run... he didn't charge... he didn't leap... He "ambled" --

walk or move at a slow, relaxed pace.

Doesn't sound very threatening to me. And the article also states:

...Sgt. Christopher Barnes, fired multiple shots and that Mr. Sanchez, who was hit more than once, was pronounced dead in front of his house.

Not very specific there. Where exactly "in front of his house"? Two steps from the porch? By the sidewalk? On the sidewalk? The street?

Are we even sure the victim -- yes, VICTIM! -- was even approaching the officers, and not his father sitting in his truck?

Further, couldn't help but shake my head in disgust at this part:

Captain Mathews said the police did not know yet why one officer pulled out his Taser while the other had his handgun.

“You can get tunnel vision or just get locked in on the person with the weapon,” he said, speaking generally about what officers can encounter during chaotic scenes. “I don’t know what the officers were thinking. They very well could not have heard everyone yelling around them.”

So the well trained and well-armed -- and therefore well-protected -- officers can get skeered and lose cognitive function and abilities and kill someone in cold blood because he's scared that someone might be a threat... tunnel vision? Can't hear the masses yelling right at you? Can't do a damn thing but shoot the guy dead???

But by God the average citizen sure doesn't get that same courtesy or respect. Hell! We don't even get that recognition that maybe... just maybe... the average Joe or Jane Blow might get confused, scared, panicked or whatever. Nope. No tunnel vision for us! No loss of hearing for us! We just better do what they say when they say and how and where they say... or we're dead. AND IT'S ALL OUR FAULT.

a reply to: Krakatoa

He was deaf,not blind,he saw weapons aimed at him yet he made an advance towards them,you can be killed by being hit over head with a steel pipe,the guy was stupid,only has himself to blame,that was a case of using common sense

a reply to: Boadicea

NYT is known for their unbiased reporting? The police said he advanced towards them with the pipe raised. Also to the people saying he “ communicated with his hands” i don’t know of any signs in Sign language that require a pipe. And to the individual saying I sound emotional you need to rethink what emotional sounds like. I am being the antithesis of emotional and am just stating the use of force and the facts as they are now. And with the UOF and facts as we know now the officers actions were justified, a deaf guy or a menally impaired guy can still cause serious bodily harm or death with a metal pipe.

a reply to: Boadicea

Have you ever been in avlife threatening shoot or no shoot scenario? I have yes it is easy to get tunnel vision no matter how well trained you are , add to that neighbors shouting out things and comingbtowards them as well things get drowned out. Think about just being outside with multiple people talking or shouting towards you, can you make out what they are saying? Now add to that a guy with a weapon( metal pipe) in his hand coming towards you with it raised.

a reply to: norhoc

And to the individual saying I sound emotional you need to rethink what emotional sounds like.

Well, that wasn't me. I think exactly the opposite. I don't hear any emotion in your posts... no compassion... no sympathy... no heart whatsoever. A disabled man is dead at the hands of government agents presumed guilty without due process and you have absolutely no regard for the tragic consequences.

In fact, I don't hear any regard for the sanctity of life whatsoever. Much less any respect for our absolute inalienable natural right to life. None.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

If you read up on the situation, it says that he mostly communicates with his hands.

It is a shame that he didn't put his pipe down in order to speak more clearly then.

He is also a bit slow.

I guess that is why he neglected to put the pipe down.

a reply to: butcherguy

Yeah. I imagine it was a combination of his slowness and being deaf. There was no reason for the police officer to use his gun. If they both had tasers it would have been fine.

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: Krazysh0t

If you read up on the situation, it says that he mostly communicates with his hands.

It is a shame that he didn't put his pipe down in order to speak more clearly then.

He is also a bit slow.

I guess that is why he neglected to put the pipe down.

did he pick up the pipe upon seeing the officers, or was he already holding it, (no wielding according to the cops)

was he running towards the trying to attack the police, or it doesn't really matter..

....

the real funny thing is how no one was this inquisitive or siding with the LEOs action when it was that Muslim officer who shot the woman charging at her car...

strange how he was guilty of all things known to man...

a reply to: Boadicea

I do have regard for human life, which is why i believe anyone ( police included) have a right to defend themselves from an attacker with a metal pipe. Again I know of no sign in ASL that requires the use of a metal pipe. Sounds like police showes up to investigate a hit and run and this guy wanted them gone and was acting in a threatening manner with a weapon. I believe in the sanctity of human life, however, i also believe in personal responsibility for ones actions. If police ask you to do something and have their weapons drawn it is a good idea to drop whatever is in your hands and comply. You don’t have to like what they are doing but the first step in not ending up dead is to not go towards police with a weapon.

originally posted by: norhoc
a reply to: Boadicea

Have you ever been in avlife threatening shoot or no shoot scenario? I have yes it is easy to get tunnel vision no matter how well trained you are , add to that neighbors shouting out things and comingbtowards them as well things get drowned out. Think about just being outside with multiple people talking or shouting towards you, can you make out what they are saying? Now add to that a guy with a weapon( metal pipe) in his hand coming towards you with it raised.

As a matter of fact, I have. And yet... I didn't kill anyone in cold blood!!! I have watched my un-armed dad disarm men without shooting them either. My dad was awesome, but am I supposed to believe that he was some superhero doing superhero things that no one else can do? Especially officers of the law? Shooting anyone should be the last resort... not the first. There are better -- safer -- options:

Scots Police Teach US Cops How To Avoid Gun Use

Google results for "police reform ideas": 6,210,000 results. Thats six MILLION two hundred ten thousand.

Give police whatever defensive protection possible -- from vests to training to whatever else will help protect them and feel safe. But I absolutely unequivocally refuse to accept giving them a badge and a gun and a license to kill.

If cops rant able to disarm a man with a simple pipe they should change jobs.

Seriously are cops this badly trained and have zero courage.

It won't be long before start shooting cops first out of presumed necessity of self defence of ones a life.

originally posted by: norhoc
a reply to: Boadicea

I do have regard for human life, which is why i believe anyone ( police included) have a right to defend themselves from an attacker with a metal pipe. Again I know of no sign in ASL that requires the use of a metal pipe. Sounds like police showes up to investigate a hit and run and this guy wanted them gone and was acting in a threatening manner with a weapon. I believe in the sanctity of human life, however, i also believe in personal responsibility for ones actions. If police ask you to do something and have their weapons drawn it is a good idea to drop whatever is in your hands and comply. You don’t have to like what they are doing but the first step in not ending up dead is to not go towards police with a weapon.

sounds like you were on the scene...

but if I was there with my lawfully obtained gun, and I saw a man who already had a stick (or "pipe" according to LEOs) get gunned down on his property, I know you who I would likely be shooting at.

Every incident of use of lethal force by law enforcement should be subject to a citizen's review board selected from the community in which the shooting took place.

You'd see these incidents drop in frequency immediately.

a reply to: Boadicea

So because there are 6.2 million ideas on police reform that means these officers were wrong? I am sure there are more than 6.2 million google results and flat earth theories, it does not mean they are true.

a reply to: odzeandennz

Good luck with your shooting at the police. I bet if you did that people on here would be saying the police had no right to shoot you

originally posted by: norhoc
a reply to: Boadicea

I do have regard for human life, which is why i believe anyone ( police included) have a right to defend themselves from an attacker with a metal pipe.

An attacker, huh? I haven't seen any mention whatsoever that he attacked them. Guilty until proven innocent, eh? Or, in this case and so many others, guilty before and after being shot in cold blood by government agents with absolutely no due process. Gotcha.

Again I know of no sign in ASL that requires the use of a metal pipe. Sounds like police showes up to investigate a hit and run and this guy wanted them gone and was acting in a threatening manner with a weapon.

"Sounds like", huh? You got all that from the few facts known? I can't believe what is reported... but you can presume to know what was in this guy's head and heart? Guilty until proven innocent -- but he never got that chance, did he?

Fact: We have absolutely no reason to believe that the dead guy even knew why the police were there, much less what his desires and/or intentions were. The father hadn't even gotten out of his truck, much less told his son what was going on. And the officers sure never told him. Nor do we have any idea just how far from his porch the dead guy had walked, much less how far away he was from the officer who was so darn scared he had to shoot first and ask questions later.

But you've already deemed him guilty of attacking police because he "wanted them gone" and was acting in a threatening manner.

Just this summer, I was approached by officers investigating a break-in while in my front yard gardening and holding -- nay, wielding! -- a very sharp metal spade. That would make quite a weapon, eh? And yet, the officers didn't presume I "wanted them gone" or that I was "acting in a threatening manner with a weapon" -- much less shoot me dead in cold blood! And even more shocking, I didn't attack them! They went home that night and slept in their warm comfy beds!!!

I believe in the sanctity of human life, however, i also believe in personal responsibility for ones actions.

Unless they have a badge and a gun, eh? Somehow police aren't responsible for creating threatening situations, much less assuming the worst about folks, and certainly not for shooting dead folks that posed no threat. Police are allowed to have cognitive breaks in a stressful situation -- can't see... can't hear... can't think -- but the rest of us don't get the same privilege. Nope. We'll just demand that the ones with the least power, the least control, and the least information be responsible for them.

If police ask you to do something and have their weapons drawn it is a good idea to drop whatever is in your hands and comply. You don’t have to like what they are doing but the first step in not ending up dead is to not go towards police with a weapon.

No. The first step is for the one initiating the interaction -- the LEOs -- to do so responsibly and reasonably in order to avoid such situations to begin with.

a reply to: Boadicea

Like the Georgia Tech student that was killed earlier in the week for holding a multi-tool.

New York Times

a reply to: Boadicea

You are making a ton of assumptions as well, also you didn’t end up in a confrontation with police proves my point that when you don’t act in a threatening manner everyone goes home at night. If you took that same metal spade and raised it an went towards the police it would have been an entirley different scenario. That is why use of force is a continuum it is constantly in play up and down.