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Oklahoma City police officer shoots, kills man holding metal pipe

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posted on Sep, 20 2017 @ 11:32 PM
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a reply to: norhoc

I never said he was just sitting on his porch..my initial post states it was a dumb move..I just don't think it was a death sentence move..one of the cops clearly thought the same as me
Why does one figure a taser is appropriate and another figures it ok to kill him..the dead guy had no record or police interactions previous to this.




posted on Sep, 20 2017 @ 11:35 PM
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The source in the OP didn't have a lot of detail, leading to a lot of speculation in this thread. This article at the NYT has more meat, including interviews with neighbors.

Despite Pleas, Oklahoma City Officer Fatally Shoots Deaf Man


Julio Rayos, a neighbor who lives a few homes away and knew the man was deaf, said he saw the confrontation unfold and sensed trouble. Continue reading the main story He said that he ran toward the officer with his wife and his 12-year-old daughter, all three of them screaming that the man could not understand the officer. “Don’t kill him, he’s deaf,” his daughter yelled. “Don’t do it!”



Mr. Sanchez was known for wandering up and down the streets during the day, even in heavy rain, and running laps in the parking lot of an American Legion post next to his home. He never left home without the pipe, wielding it shoo away stray dogs, Mr. Rayos said. Mr. Sanchez also used the pipe to communicate with people, moving it around to try to convey what he meant, Mr. Rayos said. It was the same motion Mr. Sanchez made before the police shot him, Mr. Rayos said.


So the guy's neighbors knew a lot more about the guy than the officers. To be expected. Should the officers have known about this guy and his pipe? Sure, in a small town Barney Fife perfect world with neighborhood policing. But we don't live in that world.

The part that's troublesome to me is that the cries of the neighbors went completely unheard or ignored. Intel that could have deescalated the situation was not used. The NYT article quotes the Chief talking about tunnel vision. Real thing in a stressful situation, sure, but do these officers really loose that much tactical awareness when a dude with a pipe walks off his porch? What if a commanding officer was there barking orders? Would they not hear that either?

From the sounds of it, the first officer had determined that less-than-lethal was appropriate. Perhaps he did hear the neighbors and would have moved to deescalate. Then cowboy back-up arrives, pulls iron and the rest goes south. Oops. Now I'm speculating along with everyone else. I'll stop.

Side note also included in the NYT article - LEO was there because of a nearby hit-and-run. The 911 call put an involved vehicle at this address. It was driven by Mr. Sanchez's father, who was still in the vehicle, in the driveway, when this went down. I wonder how he feels. Can't imagine.
edit on 20-9-2017 by Tripnman because: Looks like I directed a reply to: sine.nomine. Meant for thread reply, really. Not singling you out.



posted on Sep, 20 2017 @ 11:41 PM
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It seems in a lot of these cases the victims would still be alive if they didn't act like fools. A lot of these people didn't deserve to die, but if they hadn't acted like idiots, they would still be alive. Yes, let's hold police accountable, but also citizens need to be held responsible for their actions as well. I've had many interactions with police, yet have had no altercations, because I didn't act like a dummy.



posted on Sep, 20 2017 @ 11:45 PM
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You can justify the action with modern day polices all you want. And your right it will probably be ruled a good shoot.

Had that been my call, he would have taken in alive and stood before a judge as the law requires.
Maybe black eyes and a lot of stitches, but alive.

I worked three years on what would later become to be known as Street Level Interdiction Units.
We just called ourselves the Burglar Squad back in the day.
In one 30 day period we made 38 violent felony collars ( a record for that Dept. for many years) without killing or shooting
a single purp.

As well, you might read up on the 9th Circuit's latest ruling on the use of deadly force and if it will come into play on this case.

Buck



posted on Sep, 20 2017 @ 11:52 PM
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a reply to: Tripnman

That makes the story even more tragic.



posted on Sep, 20 2017 @ 11:57 PM
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a reply to: Tripnman

Thanks for the extra details. And this is what I'm talking about. Just because the officers felt threatened, doesn't always make their actions the right ones. A perceived threat is more often than not a non-threat. Police have become to trigger happy, even with new "less-than-lethal" technology. Truly sad story.



posted on Sep, 20 2017 @ 11:58 PM
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a reply to: RadioRobert

Yes, it's rather heartbreaking.



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 12:02 AM
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I'm sure the police officer must feel real good about himself. Shooting a man (deaf or not) threatening with a stick or pipe, is plain cowardice. He'd should run for Congress, as a Republican.



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 12:10 AM
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a reply to: carewemust

We don't even know if he was actually threatening, according to his neighbor's, it was how he communicated..maybe he has some mental impairment, as well as being deaf?



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 12:15 AM
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originally posted by: vonclod
a reply to: carewemust

We don't even know if he was actually threatening, according to his neighbor's, it was how he communicated..maybe he has some mental impairment, as well as being deaf?


I think someone posted a video yesterday of Dallas police murdering a mentally retarded man in cold-blood, simply because he walked at them with a SCREWDRIVER in his hand.

Is police brutality and murders of innocents on the rise, or, are we just seeing/hearing more incidents due to modern video and communication technologies?



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 12:34 AM
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originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: vonclod
a reply to: carewemust

We don't even know if he was actually threatening, according to his neighbor's, it was how he communicated..maybe he has some mental impairment, as well as being deaf?


Is police brutality and murders of innocents on the rise, or, are we just seeing/hearing more incidents due to modern video and communication technologies?


I would say the latter....the days of compiling research from microfilm newspapers is long behind us...



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 12:35 AM
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a reply to: carewemust

I saw that too..very troubling, I think things have gotten worse, and so tired of hearing cops get to go home..don't get me wrong they deserve to go home but their job entails some amount of risk, if not prepared to deal with some risk, become an ice cream man or whatever.."going home" to me doesn't mean blast away before less than lethal options are considered..if the guy who held the pipe had a gun instead of a pipe, I understand if he gets shot.
One cop in this case was thoughtful and used a taser..I'm in that guys corner..more of him are needed, the cowboy who showed up and started blasting..you need less of him.

Here is just some quick info I looked up, some occupations and how many die from 1-10




1 Fishers and related fishing workers, at a rate of 116 deaths per 100,000
2 Logging workers, at a rate of 91 deaths per 100,000
3 Aircraft pilots and flight engineers, at a rate of 71 deaths per 100,000
4 Farmers and ranchers, at a rate of 41 deaths per 100,000
5 Mining machine operators, at a rate of 38 deaths per 100,000
6 Roofers, at a rate of 32 deaths per 100,000
7 Refuse and recyclable material collectors, at a rate of 29 deaths per 100,000
8 Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers, at a rate of 21 deaths per 100,000
9 Industrial machinery repair and installation, at a rate of 20 per 100,000
10 Police and sheriff's patrol officers, at a rate of 19 per 100,000

www.thebalance.com...



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 12:42 AM
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originally posted by: vonclod
maybe he has some mental impairment, as well as being deaf?




Neighbor Julio Rayos told The Oklahoman on Wednesday that in addition to being deaf, Sanchez was developmentally disabled and didn't speak, communicating mainly through hand movements. Rayos said he believes Sanchez became frustrated trying to tell the officers what was going on.


And as for the officers using differing levels of force.



When asked why Barnes used a gun instead of a Taser, Mathews said he didn't know. He said it's possible Barnes wasn't equipped with a Taser. Neither officer had a body camera.


SOURCE



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 12:45 AM
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originally posted by: norhoc
a reply to: WeRpeons



You have been a cop? You can QB this all you want from behind your computer but you would wet your pants if put in even the least scary situation LEO's get put in and have to make a snap decision. The guy advanced on officers with a weapon in his hand and got shot.


You know, it's sad to me to see someone with a Starfleet avatar making statements such as yours. Do you think summary judgement and escalation of force would acceptable in the United Federation of Planets, especially under the leadership of someone like Jean Luc Picard?

Look, no one forced these individuals to sign up to be LEO's. No one made them choose a career with inherent risks. If you cannot maintain your focus and mental acuity under pressure, perhaps putting on the blue isn't for you.

There was a time in this country when police officers operated under a "protect and serve" mindset, not strictly an "enforcement" mentality. I suppose that's what we get with young pups straight out military service (possibly with PTSD) filling the police ranks, militarizing it and seeing citizens as enemy combatants.

How anyone who has a loaded semi automatic pistol and backup could possibly think a deaf individual with a pipe constitutes a "life threatening situation", warranting the discharge of their sidearm is beyond me. That's not equal force, or even one step up from equal force -- that's overwhelming force

And let's be real. This is Oklahoma. The police department will settle out of court in 6 months or so for a few million to the family (at the taxpayer's expense).

Oklahoma doesn't exactly have the best reputation when it comes to policing and corrections. Look at the DOJ findings of their investigation of the Oklahoma jail sometime.

Excessive force in Oklahoma isn't anything new...



The two guards who were in the clinic with Littlejohn testified he struck the inmate as they restrained the inmate on an examination table. Their accounts, however, conflicted at major points. Also, both witnesses, Sgt. Robert Roy and William Ira Hathorn, told jurors they lied to investigators for more than a year before revealing what happened.

Defense attorney Michael S. Johnson said those guards still are lying about what happened to protect themselves from blame. "They needed a fall guy,” Johnson told jurors.

During the trial, several defense witnesses testified Roy and other guards hurt the inmate on the second floor before Littlejohn got involved. Some described seeing Roy and another guard ram the inmate’s head into a steel jail door.

A former inmate testified he overheard Roy joke that Beckman’s face kept hitting his hand. Roy denied making the statement.

Link

It's not really that uncommon...



Timmons said the officers slammed McKinney's head against a concrete wall and then threw her to the ground and kicked her.


...



McKinney, according to court papers, was placed in a holding cell and was taunted by officers. They ignored her requests for medical aid and made her crawl from her cell to a holding room on her hands and knees, the attorney said during the weeklong trial.

Attorneys for Whetsel and the board denied the allegations in court, telling jurors “nothing happened” on the night in question.

McKinney, the attorneys said, was “obstinate,” “uncooperative” and “verbally combative,” and “right where she belonged” because she broke the law.

They accused McKinney of fabricating the incident.

Link

And even people who work in the industry have spoken up:



I saw the same guard take a young man about 20 years old and box him in the face several times. His hands were handcuffed behind his back. The young man didn’t say anything to that guard. I watched it happen. I felt so sorry. I told my supervisor, “This is abuse and this has to stop.”

...

I saw guards slam inmates up against the steel doors all the time. I saw them making inmates sit for hours chained to a bar waiting to be seen in the clinic.

Business Insider

Sure sounds like the attitude of a lot of cops these days to me. We're seeing it more and more because more and more people are standing up for themselves. More people have devices which can record video of events.

The more documentation we, the people, seem to do -- the more that thin blue veil is lifted.

Lastly, does this sound like a man who would condone overwhelming force when perfectly acceptable non-lethal methods are readily available to an officer and his backup? An individual that they know is deaf?



If you were to be honest, I think you know the answer.
edit on 21-9-2017 by Kettu because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 12:45 AM
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a reply to: FraggleRock

Damn, I figured as much.
Thanks for the update

edit on 21-9-2017 by vonclod because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 12:47 AM
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You guys got me wound up on this, so I started digging for the facts.
I hate when the truth does not get presented.
He was NOT the driver of the vehicle in question.
He did not drive and was developmentally challenged, as in could not speak or hear.
He communicated with rapid moments of his arms.
Neighbors were yelling at the LEOs not to fire, as the guy was totally bewildered by all the activity.
He had no criminal record.
He carried the stick / pipe all the time to ward off the many loose dogs in the neighborhood.

Yea, I'm smelling something, but lets wait and see how it unwinds.

Buck



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 04:51 AM
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a reply to: TobyFlenderson

I think the scenario you need to look at is : Someone is advancing on YOU with a pipe, not just walking down the street. Also, define "advanced". Was he running toward them or walking quickly, maybe with the pipe held like a bat? Most of the time, well, I'm not really so much "Anti cop" as I am anti abuse of authority, but if someone were walking toward me like that?..mmm... IF I had a taser and/or pepper spray, I'd try it first, BUT [ pay attention to this part ] Depending On Their Distance, I may very well shoot. Even someone blinded by the spray, can rush toward the last place they saw you, swinging wildly and still be a credible threat.
We don't know if the officer with the taser fired and it just didn't work. In some cases, they don't work on people for whatever reason. It says "One officer deployed his taser", but I'm not sure if "deployed" means he actually fired it. Deaf is no excuse. Walking toward those cops with a pipe was a bad idea, he didn't need "verbal commands" to know that.

Put yourself in this : If you're walking toward me, with a weapon like that pipe in your hand and I draw my gun and point it at you, what would be your first reaction? Stop and drop the pipe, maybe even run away or....keep coming toward me, knowing I see you as a threat?
edit on 21-9-2017 by DAVID64 because: edit



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 05:00 AM
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a reply to: flatbush71

I wondered how he got involved. If he wasn't part of the accident then it seems he was collateral damage.

They don't make police like they use to...



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 05:03 AM
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originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: vonclod
a reply to: carewemust

We don't even know if he was actually threatening, according to his neighbor's, it was how he communicated..maybe he has some mental impairment, as well as being deaf?


I think someone posted a video yesterday of Dallas police murdering a mentally retarded man in cold-blood, simply because he walked at them with a SCREWDRIVER in his hand.

Is police brutality and murders of innocents on the rise, or, are we just seeing/hearing more incidents due to modern video and communication technologies?






The ease of taking a video is a factor but as kettu mentions further up the page cops these days no longer protect and serve, they are enforcement, as enforcement officers they can do away with the care factor.



posted on Sep, 21 2017 @ 05:58 AM
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I remember we had something similar happen in Cinci when I was little. Officer Roach, I think was his name. Shot and killed a dude holding something. Riots ensued.

What a shame. You're right, they have a HUGE amount of responsibility. When you have a major mistake as a LEO it's usually not pretty for anyone involved.

-Alee




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