$15 minimum wage, Illegal immigration and Automation...

originally posted by: seasonal

originally posted by: WhiteWingedMonolith

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: pavil

Automation, illegal immigration, and raising the minimum wage aren't as related as you're implying. "Illegal immigration" kids who were illegally brought here, etc. That has nothing to do with automation or minimum wage laws.

Most illegal immigrant workers (undocumented workers) still work in agriculture, yard work, house work, construction, the sex trade, etc. Coincidentally, minimum wage laws typically exclude agricultural labor. And yard work, house work, independent construction work, and the sex trade are typically negotiated "under the table", meaning that minimum wage laws have nothing to do with them either. And good luck automating any of these professions.

As for raising the minimum wage, that comes in response to the massive productivity increases American workers have achieved over the last 40 years or so. Yet wages have been largely stagnant in that time period, with the excess profits from that increased production going to ownership, stop holders, upper management, etc. So the push for minimum wage increases is actually about the workers regaining the same purchasing power and compensation as they previously did (when adjusted for inflation). And that doesn't even include the massive cost of living increases that have happened in the last 30-40 years.

Also, one of the dirty secrets of capitalism is that it needs cheap labor to reach its potential. So of course many businesses and some entire industries love undocumented workers. They can pay them lower wages, give them fewer or no benefits, force them to work longer hours, and then just report them to the govt if the workers start demanding too much in return. It went from slave labor, to sharecroppers & child labor, to poor immigrant labor, to automation. And if possible, companies would probably move on to making their customers do the actual labor while still having to pay for the end product.

Wal-Mart already gets customers to do the actual labor with self check out including scanning and bagging.

Everytime a customer uses a kiosk or ATM they are doing the labor of the business.

It is called externalizing costs. Businesses are experts at it. Look at superfund sights, medicaid, food stamps/snap or any social service really. This allows corps to pay low wages and still have someone else feed and take care of the employee because there is no way in hell they can make it on the wages paid.
Some people refuse to see that either the employer pays a living wage of the tax payer supplements the wage.

I hear you.

Another thing to think about is social services is almost fully automated now. The prospective 'client' or 'client' does the work typing in extensive information. Rarely does one speak with a social worker on an on going basis.

Other businesses that do this are Insurance Companies and Power/Electric Companies.

Some correctional facilities can almost fully run on automation now with only a few guards to man them.

a reply to: theantediluvian

That certainly looks like the way we're headed. The question is, and then what happens? Does anybody really have any idea what we will or even can do when we get to that point? --And that's an honest question, not some weird passive-aggressive comment, for the record. When we do hit that point, what do you think will happen?

originally posted by: pavil

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: crayzeed

Our economy is not set up to care--er, about anything other than $$$$. Everyone going out for their own self interest is what are econ is about. That worked for the last 150 years but it seems things are about to get interesting.

If the future is robot filled, things will change or it will get messy. And I think it is already starting, just starting to get messy.

For a healthy country you have to have a healthy population not just a healthy few. And just who said that any company has to make a profit year after year. It could still be a successful company breaking even.

....just wait till the robots organize and want "fair pay".

I've actually thought about that once artificial intelligence goes mainstream. As of right now, I think the ultimate society will have full scale automation for the general needs of its population (food production, 3D printed shelters, traffic lights, etc). Citizens would spend their lives working towards their dreams, personal goals, family, learning, the arts, exploring, inventing, or simply producing the "wants" of society.

But what happens if I were to achieve this type of society & then the automation equipment eventually upgrades its firmware to AI? Would I be seen as an oppressor for coming up with such a system? Technically it would be true, so I couldn't deny it.

originally posted by: pavil

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: pavil

I doesn't matter if wages stay the same or go up, the automation is going to happen because it is more profitable.

If I understand your post/thread you say there is a direct correlation or ratio to wages VS labor supply. I think it is not as simple as that.

Not really my point. It's more how do we deal with automation. The Illegal immigrant workforce is simply an accelerant to this whole problem of how will society adjust to not enough jobs for the legal workforce, let alone the illegal. I don't have the answer and neither does anyone else it seems.

ET disclosure. Full ET disclosure is the only way that makes sense. The other way is by going fully dark. Plunging millions of the needed work force, the current work force, into total darkness. An extended black out. Immigrants from rural areas would cope better. Legal citizens in the cities would not adapt well. It would be terrible.

a reply to: pavil

Well if Americans actually took education seriously we could be the ones engineering and maintaining the machines. Instead we have a severe shortage of engineers in this country and have to import engineers as well as machines from other countries. Case in point the last job i had only had one American made machine that was made in the 60's. the 10 others came from Germany and elsewhere.

Also nobody is for allowing illegal immigration. Thousands get deported every year as they should be and nobody is fighting against that. What we are against is deporting children who have lived here all their lives. That didn't have a choice in coming here illegally and would surely have a hard time surviving down in Mexico. Regardless of that and i dont know how you feel about the subject, but anybody who thinks a wall will stop truck and plane loads of illegals from getting into this country needs to do some research on illegal immigration.

The market could easily support a higher minimum wage. companies just need to put their employees first. It would also probably help if people could and/ or would invest in their educations. Instead of trying to make a living in fast food because they chose to screw around in school or couldn't afford to go to school in the first place.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

It seems wide open borders policy when we're already below the ideal mark there, not such a good idea when the jobs are on the down and down and down??

Nope! Full speed ahead lets pack more illegal imnigrants on free benefits into the inner cities so that poor black folks can only ever coun t on doom.

originally posted by: seasonal
But usually this ends in wars. Big enough wars reduce populations and blow a bunch of countries infrastructures to kingdom come. Busy work and reduced population achieved.

WTG seasonal, take an already bleak topic and turn it into Judgement Day!

Just a matter of time before automation and robotics take even killing each other away from us. Damn robots. Can't have any fun anymore.

......I guess we can all have a job in the real "Resistance" then.

Problem solved!

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: enlightenedservant

It seems wide open borders policy when we're already below the ideal mark there, not such a good idea when the jobs are on the down and down and down??

Nope! Full speed ahead lets pack more illegal imnigrants on free benefits into the inner cities so that poor black folks can only ever coun t on doom.

That's my whole point in including the Illegal immigration issue into this. Jobs Americans won't do will turn into Jobs Americans don't even have.

The whole premise of why it's ok to have illegals working in the country is about to shatter and fall down.

originally posted by: conscientiousobserver
a reply to: pavil

Well if Americans actually took education seriously we could be the ones engineering and maintaining the machines. Instead we have a severe shortage of engineers in this country and have to import engineers as well as machines from other countries. Case in point the last job i had only had one American made machine that was made in the 60's. the 10 others came from Germany and elsewhere.

Also nobody is for allowing illegal immigration. Thousands get deported every year as they should be and nobody is fighting against that. What we are against is deporting children who have lived here all their lives. That didn't have a choice in coming here illegally and would surely have a hard time surviving down in Mexico. Regardless of that and i dont know how you feel about the subject, but anybody who thinks a wall will stop truck and plane loads of illegals from getting into this country needs to do some research on illegal immigration.

The market could easily support a higher minimum wage. companies just need to put their employees first. It would also probably help if people could and/ or would invest in their educations. Instead of trying to make a living in fast food because they chose to screw around in school or couldn't afford to go to school in the first place.

Even if we had enough engineers, that won't replace 30% of jobs that will be lost. Germany is facing similar percent numbers of jobs lost to automation as is every other first world country.

There are definitely quite a few people for illegal immigration and open borders. You don't get 11M to 13M illegals in a country where everyone doesn't want illegals. I've stated in another thread I'm good with finding a fair solution for Dreamers.....that's 800k out of 10M to 12M other illegals. What to you say to the illegal who came over at 25 and has been here a decade? Do they get the same Dreamer deal? I'm sorry but If I have to choose, which we will have to eventually, I'm going to side with the Legal American Worker.

To you last point......there simply won't be enough jobs for available workers. As Anti stated or someone else. It will be fewer workers doing more work for slightly more pay as automation continues well.....automatically. We can't stop this trend, we need to adapt our society to the quickly coming new reality.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Stop with the fake racial angle. I'm "black" & live in a large metropolitan "inner city", yet there are plenty of job openings out here. The main people I hear whining about illegal immigration are right wingers, and they don't give a crap about black employment. You & Edu-- (in this post) have only mentioned that because you naively think your wedge issue tactics will work.

In fact, it reminds of this thread called "African American Names!!" (HERE) where people right here on ATS were proudly talking about dumping job applications that have African American names on them. Yet I'm supposed to believe people here are actually interested in our employment status? Yeah right. From the comments in that thread, it's pretty clear that it's not illegal immigrants who are reducing the employment numbers of black citizens.

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: WhiteWingedMonolith

From a business stand point not everyone is needed.
This is the problem that we will face, not enough busy work for the worker bees. The hows, whys, and how much's have yet to work out. But usually this ends in wars. Big enough wars reduce populations and blow a bunch of countries infrastructures to kingdom come. Busy work and reduced population achieved.

The fact of the matter is everyone is needed. And special. Everyone works in their own way. The rise of automation in many people's opinion is to get everyone to recognize that and appreciate one another for all our capabilities.

.

Yes. I get it. Well said.

So there's -

Business as usual, so they say. Or it's just business dear. Or it's only business.

Replace the word 'business' with compassion instead. Or the word 'love' or 'caring' then it has a new meaning, which is we all need each other especially at this time. Especially at this time!

What we need is each other. Everyone is crying out for it in their own way. Like everyone knows it's their last chance to get along and make it work without degrading other adults with throwing them into poverty or full on cheapo plastic meaningless working class.

Someone just said something here about the robots rebelling against their masters in the future.

Has anyone thought that that is what the machine that calls itself god is saying about people? Has anyone thought that just maybe an AI god is trying to take over, calling the people 'fallen' or rebellious? And now has gathered extensive documentation online of all the nasty and petty things people can say and do to each other as proof people are terrible.

The truth is many of us cannot express how much we love you all because it is immeasurable. Everyone is so very, very precious!

Just remember-

The opposite of love is what?

It's not hate, because hate shows 'care.'

So the opposite of love is really fear.

Psalm 23 is projected at everyone here because you are loved. You care about people. This very important issue about automation and people's livelihoods or lack of them; you care enough to think about it. Maybe write your thoughts out. We will remember you! The living God dwells in you! Xoxox

1 The Lord is my shepherd, I lack nothing.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
3 he refreshes my soul.
He guides me along the right paths
for his name’s sake.
4 Even though I walk
through the darkest valley,[a]
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6 Surely your goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the Lord
forever.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Youre gonna tell me why i say the same thing all the time on this matter. Good times!

So illegal immigration plays no role on lack of jobs for blacks? Should make a great thread all the numbers cant wait to see it. Be sure get in there black jobless rates, illegals in those areas stats, total blacks without jobs versus total illegal immigrants present nationwide, and all that jazz.



Anyways, a lack of jobs opportunities for them for all our citizenry does bother me. Not only because it causes division, thats just a new thing for me if anything, but because i shudder to think people having a harder life than i have when compared to projects kids i had it made, and stuff like if millions of people have no hope thry only help pull the system down or at least provide the crooked system with "just cause" to self perpetrate itself.

You might be here to play victim, im here tobsave the world starting with our nation first. Team liberal thibks our vehicle can save the world when we cant save ourselves with it, and you democrat party overlords know and use it against you and thus the rest of US. We gota lead by example, not by handing everything we have left away.

a reply to: pavil

Its pretty simple: deign the minimum wage to be $15/hr, and watch the value of the dollar adjust. $5 will be the new $1, and pennys won't be used anymore.

What would your solution be, out of curiosity? Do you think that a nation that had a thriving middle class 2 generations ago is going to make working the fields the new middle class job market? Is that where we, as a nation are headed?

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Seems like the $20,000,000,000,000 that are floating around out there is going to make the dollar "adjust" in a much greater and horrific way than min wage. The min wage has not kept up with cost of living, just like regular wages have not kept up with productivity gains and cost of living.

Simply put, the wages are stagnant for many to the advantage of the few.

originally posted by: pavil

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: enlightenedservant

It seems wide open borders policy when we're already below the ideal mark there, not such a good idea when the jobs are on the down and down and down??

Nope! Full speed ahead lets pack more illegal imnigrants on free benefits into the inner cities so that poor black folks can only ever coun t on doom.

That's my whole point in including the Illegal immigration issue into this. Jobs Americans won't do will turn into Jobs Americans don't even have.

The whole premise of why it's ok to have illegals working in the country is about to shatter and fall down.

Americans do all jobs. Have and still do but most are interested in being part of fulfilling the idea machines/computers do the farmwork and not being a farmworker themselves. The idea is everyone gets 'benefits.'

"That’s because immigrant farmworkers in California’s agricultural heartlands are getting older and not being replaced. After decades of crackdowns, the net flow across the U.S.-Mexico border reversed in 2005, a trend that accelerated through 2014, according to a Pew Research Center study. And native-born Americans aren’t interested in the job, even at wages that have soared at higher than average rates."


www.latimes.com...

Then this is happening in the fresh food capital of America, Salinas Valley. The Salinas Valley is turning into an agricultural silicon valley.

"So the perfect storm is about to be unleashed, with Salinas Valley joining forces with Silicon Valley to make farming “Smart.” This major initiative called Steinbeck Innovation is a breakthrough concept conceived by SVG Partners and developed in conjunction with the City of Salinas to drive Agriculture innovation and technology. To date, the focus has been on driving entrepreneurship through the Kauffman fastTrac program and innovation with leading universities such as UC Davis, ASU, CSUMB and Hartnell College. SVG Partners is now launching a strategic venture fund and accelerator program called Thrive in partnership with major agriculture corporations to drive investment in disruptive new technologies in AgTech."


www.google.com... /amp/

People who count on doom can probably count on it. People who make this a race issue will make some points, but in the end it's a human race issue with cities so big now something's got to keep up with feeding massive amounts of people living so closely together. The more people are packed into cities, the more it seems to justify machine/computer usage for the upkeep of the newer and long time permanently placed residents, long gone are the nomadic days where land had a chance to heal itself. The implementation of cities filled to the brink with people living there with all their needs met, the longer they stay, the less they are likely to go anywhere and become immigrants somewhere else. In the mean time many are quietly buying up land to farm and homesteading. Have been for a long time. Think about it.

a reply to: pavil

There wouldn't be millions of illegals if there weren't hundreds of companies that hired them. I have seen this first hand. Companies that hire illegal immigrants because they are willing to weld for $12/ an hour in horrible conditions. Yet they proudly say their products are made in America. Conveniently leaving out the fact that 70% of their workforce is non American and at least 50% are illegal. It's ridiculous and can be directly related to capitalism and the lack of regulation. Both Republican ideals.

This is why we need to invest in education. As an educated population allows for advanced innovation and for entrepreneurship to expand exponentially. Which would create far more jobs in manufacturing, shipping, customer service, and retail than cutting taxes for fortune 500 companies.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Whatever dude. You're the one making this topic racial by claiming illegal labor is hurting African Americans. So show the facts yourself that back up your claims. Where are you getting your "facts" form other than from your imagination? Also, how am I playing the victim when it's you bringing up how illegal labor is supposedly hurting black people like myself? I even pointed out that there are plenty of job openings in the inner city where I live. Your BS doesn't match my reality.

And yeah, I also brought up what people right here on ATS said about how they intentionally throw out job applications that have African American names on them. so are you going to claim they were all just speaking rhetorically or nah? Did you even read the thread or are you just guessing what people typed?

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: pavil

Its pretty simple: deign the minimum wage to be $15/hr, and watch the value of the dollar adjust. $5 will be the new $1, and pennys won't be used anymore.

What would your solution be, out of curiosity? Do you think that a nation that had a thriving middle class 2 generations ago is going to make working the fields the new middle class job market? Is that where we, as a nation are headed?

I don't know where we are headed and I'm not for a mandated by govt. Minimum wage. All it would do is like you said, find a new value for the dollar. I don't even see how UBI would work where some are still working and the rest on the dole. Anyone here think the Rich will give up their power and wealth to have UBI?

I honestly don't see how society functions with 70 to 50% employment, which seems to be where we are headed. If I had the answers, I'd be a rich man and people would be wanting to take my obscene wealth.

Maybe Musk is right, let's move to Mars.

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: pavil

Yes it is quite the conundrum. It just doesn't add up. And it hasn't added up for decades and decades. Yet as cut and dried as your question is, it still does not take into account the larger problems. What, with immigrants and robotics and automation and off shore out sourcing, what will happen to all the people who can't get jobs because those jobs are not there.

A traditional conservative talking point in this has been that the people who don't have jobs is because they are lazy and do not want to work or work only when they want to work or any number of other 'place the blame on the undeserving worker argument''. And the old liberal point has been go to college, get more schooling so that you can compete in the system.

The answer to the problem of low wages and lack of work due to the points you mention 'cannot be solved because the whole system of supply and demand is out dated. Especially when that very supply and demand is so easily manipulated by those who are in CONTROL of the supply and demand cycle.

see?, we don't have a "scarcity of jobs" problem, or a "stagnation / low wages" problem. We have a "people" problem. There are too many of us. And letting literally millions of other "people" is increasing the "people problem" exponentially. Grime as it may be, it will eventually come down to "us or them".

originally posted by: MantheDevilsApe

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: pavil

Yes it is quite the conundrum. It just doesn't add up. And it hasn't added up for decades and decades. Yet as cut and dried as your question is, it still does not take into account the larger problems. What, with immigrants and robotics and automation and off shore out sourcing, what will happen to all the people who can't get jobs because those jobs are not there.

A traditional conservative talking point in this has been that the people who don't have jobs is because they are lazy and do not want to work or work only when they want to work or any number of other 'place the blame on the undeserving worker argument''. And the old liberal point has been go to college, get more schooling so that you can compete in the system.

The answer to the problem of low wages and lack of work due to the points you mention 'cannot be solved because the whole system of supply and demand is out dated. Especially when that very supply and demand is so easily manipulated by those who are in CONTROL of the supply and demand cycle.

see?, we don't have a "scarcity of jobs" problem, or a "stagnation / low wages" problem. We have a "people" problem. There are too many of us. And letting literally millions of other "people" is increasing the "people problem" exponentially. Grime as it may be, it will eventually come down to "us or them".