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$15 minimum wage, Illegal immigration and Automation...

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posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 10:55 AM
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One thing I find confusing is how, in an age where jobs are being replaced by automation and brick and mortar stores are dropping like flies, that people can support Illegal immigration and at the same time a $15 min wage.

Studies have told us the wave of automation will take away many jobs. So in the future there will be less jobs and more people looking for jobs. In this kind of environment, how can we arrive at a $15 wage with the added illegal workers in our system? The law of supply and demand will have a downward effect on wages and add in automation and illegal Immigration and a $15 min wage becomes a pipe dream.

I don't see how in today's world one can be for illegal Immigration as automation chips away hard at existing jobs. If you want to raise wages, the market has to eventually support that increased wage. Some people want to have it both ways.

Your thoughts?




posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 10:59 AM
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Common sense isn't so common as they say. But they will legislate stupid as far as they can.




posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:10 AM
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a reply to: pavil

This has nothing to do with wages or immigration. It's about profits and control.

It is about media manipulation by corp media, the large corps are for illegal (cheap) labor. And oddly enough the large corps are for a low, low min wage. The facts are out there about historic productivity gains being "shared" with the workers. This "sharing stopped in the mid 1970's and wage stagnation started and profits soared.

Also grovelling, poor, worried employees are easier to control and won't dare to unionize. Boots on necks is the goal.
edit on 18-9-2017 by seasonal because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:15 AM
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originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: pavil

This has nothing to do with wages or immigration. It's about profits and control.

It is about media manipulation by corp media, the large corps are for illegal (cheap) labor. And oddly enough the large corps are for a low, low min wage. The facts that out there about historic productivity gains being "shared" with the workers. This "sharing stopped in the mid 1970's and wage stagnation started.

Also grovelling, poor, worried employees are easier to control and won't dare to unionize. Boots on necks is the goal.


If you have an excess supply (workers) with less Demand (Jobs), what happens to the cost of that supply?

It's easy to spout off like you did. Tell me how you raise wages with added workers and less jobs?



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:21 AM
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a reply to: pavil

Automation, illegal immigration, and raising the minimum wage aren't as related as you're implying. "Illegal immigration" kids who were illegally brought here, etc. That has nothing to do with automation or minimum wage laws.

Most illegal immigrant workers (undocumented workers) still work in agriculture, yard work, house work, construction, the sex trade, etc. Coincidentally, minimum wage laws typically exclude agricultural labor. And yard work, house work, independent construction work, and the sex trade are typically negotiated "under the table", meaning that minimum wage laws have nothing to do with them either. And good luck automating any of these professions.

As for raising the minimum wage, that comes in response to the massive productivity increases American workers have achieved over the last 40 years or so. Yet wages have been largely stagnant in that time period, with the excess profits from that increased production going to ownership, stop holders, upper management, etc. So the push for minimum wage increases is actually about the workers regaining the same purchasing power and compensation as they previously did (when adjusted for inflation). And that doesn't even include the massive cost of living increases that have happened in the last 30-40 years.

Also, one of the dirty secrets of capitalism is that it needs cheap labor to reach its potential. So of course many businesses and some entire industries love undocumented workers. They can pay them lower wages, give them fewer or no benefits, force them to work longer hours, and then just report them to the govt if the workers start demanding too much in return. It went from slave labor, to sharecroppers & child labor, to poor immigrant labor, to automation. And if possible, companies would probably move on to making their customers do the actual labor while still having to pay for the end product.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:22 AM
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a reply to: pavil

What happens when you have less workers and more jobs?

In other words, like right now. In my city we have help wanted signs in windows of fast food joints for a year now. Guess what direction the wages have gone.....Not up.

Like you said, the system works well without intervention by immigration. But the corp monopoly does not want to raise wages as easily as you mention. It took 40 years of stagnation to get here and sadly it will take a while to correct the ship.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:35 AM
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originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: pavil

What happens when you have less workers and more jobs?

In other words, like right now. In my city we have help wanted signs in windows of fast food joints for a year now. Guess what direction the wages have gone.....Not up.

Like you said, the system works well without intervention by immigration. But the corp monopoly does not want to raise wages as easily as you mention. It took 40 years of stagnation to get here and sadly it will take a while to correct the ship.



Ummm...I'm sorry...but you never did answer Pavil's question...

With projections of 30 to 40% job loss due to automation...within the next few decades...and an increasing labor pool...while we have incremental entry level wage hikes...How does that insure an adequate work force to job ratio...?

Perhaps you need to pay heed to the talks of a basic living wage...to feed and shelter the masses of unfortunates that were automated out of the work force...





YouSir



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:35 AM
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a reply to: pavil

Yes it is quite the conundrum. It just doesn't add up. And it hasn't added up for decades and decades. Yet as cut and dried as your question is, it still does not take into account the larger problems. What, with immigrants and robotics and automation and off shore out sourcing, what will happen to all the people who can't get jobs because those jobs are not there.

A traditional conservative talking point in this has been that the people who don't have jobs is because they are lazy and do not want to work or work only when they want to work or any number of other 'place the blame on the undeserving worker argument''. And the old liberal point has been go to college, get more schooling so that you can compete in the system.

The answer to the problem of low wages and lack of work due to the points you mention 'cannot be solved because the whole system of supply and demand is out dated. Especially when that very supply and demand is so easily manipulated by those who are in CONTROL of the supply and demand cycle.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:40 AM
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a reply to: YouSir

Oh we are screwed and I see very few options to a universal wage. But this will be after major major problems.

But the to many laborers wages down and to few laborers wages up is Forest Gump simple.


.
edit on 18-9-2017 by seasonal because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:41 AM
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a reply to: pavil

eventually if everything goes automated we will have to end up being a communist country in the U.S.A. what else can there be if there are no jobs for people? if everything is automated and just a fraction of the people working either we go commi or no one will be able to buy anything, no utilities, no new iphones, no cable no internet. all these compines due to lose all there income should wise up soon and start fighting automation. who cares if you can make something for a nickle that use to cost you 50bucks to make that you sold for 600 if there is only the top 1% are the only customers cause no one has an income anymore. either the government will force some type of common pay for everyone for doing nothing or this whole automation agenda will be shot down. they think they are saving a buck when really they will be losing millions.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:41 AM
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a reply to: seasonal

Excellent points. A conservative argument would be to take away the subsidies to the unemployed and those jobs would fill up with people waiting in line for them. And the corps would fill those jobs in a minute but only after they lowered the wage by 20%.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:44 AM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant

You are wrong. My housekeeper is not illegal. My business employs legal persons and all are paid over $15 an hour. Are you factoring in the additional cost to employ each person at $15 an hour? Employers pay appx. $3 additional dollars per employee, due to various taxes, workers comp, etc....not including cost of utilities, a desk, paper, ink, productivity loss etc...

Employers are unappreciated and yet NECESSARY to growth of any nation.

It most definately has to do with corps. employing illegals at lower pay. There should be no illegals to employ! Problem solved.

Bring jobs back to America. Temporarily CLOSE borders as needed for many reasons.

MAKE people like you feed, cloth, shelter a minimum of 5 illegals...then you'll see the light.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:46 AM
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originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: pavil

This has nothing to do with wages or immigration. It's about profits and control.

It is about media manipulation by corp media, the large corps are for illegal (cheap) labor. And oddly enough the large corps are for a low, low min wage. The facts are out there about historic productivity gains being "shared" with the workers. This "sharing stopped in the mid 1970's and wage stagnation started and profits soared.

Also grovelling, poor, worried employees are easier to control and won't dare to unionize. Boots on necks is the goal.


Corporations don't really care about wages. They aren't opposed to hire wages. They're in favor of their profit margins. That's it. Nothing else. If they could sell their products for more, they would. The threat of diminishing return prevents that. Adding 30 cents to chicken nuggets doesn't seem like much to ask, but they use models to predict these things. You know, instead of feels
edit on 18-9-2017 by bender151 because: Browser submitted before finished typing for some reason



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:47 AM
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a reply to: seasonal

What is the projected trend of jobs to workers? Why is there talk of UBI? Even fast food places are looking at automation as a solution. More and more brokerage accounts are managed by algorithm, not person. What happens when semis are automated?

The trend of automation is not going to stop.


The latest predictions from PricewaterhouseCoopers (pdf) survey the damage for specific countries. Analysts at the consulting firm said that by the early 2030s, 38% of US jobs are at a high risk of automation, more than in Germany, the UK, and Japan.

link



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:50 AM
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a reply to: pavil

This weekend the 1St self serving kiosks in McDonalds were installed... Now only a single counter worker pretty much to hand your order.

So with all the yelling they were doing about $15 an hr... It's now a case of Macs getting the point.. but protesters will be replaced by automation and swiping your card to pay is next.

Be careful what you wish for.. you just may get it... and lose something else in the process...
edit on 18-9-2017 by mysterioustranger because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:51 AM
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a reply to: TerryMcGuire

I think corps at their heart are for one thing, profits. Last quarters profits are this quarters losses.

Continued unlimited profit growth is a paradigm that is impossible to keep in a limited world. If automation is the future I think we are in a world of hurt from the corporate bed we allowed to be made. I see a rough road coming.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:54 AM
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a reply to: pavil

I doesn't matter if wages stay the same or go up, the automation is going to happen because it is more profitable.

If I understand your post/thread you say there is a direct correlation or ratio to wages VS labor supply. I think it is not as simple as that.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:55 AM
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a reply to: pavil

The "they're taking our jobs meme" relies heavily on people not understanding how economies work at the most basic level. People participate in the economy as both laborers and consumers. More people means more demand for goods and services which in turn creates more demand for labor to produce these goods and perform these services.

Automation is one part of what Keynes called "technological unemployment." Computerization is another major contributor. But it's not simply a robot or a computer replacing a job — though those are the most direct and obvious examples — all those minor innovations that make jobs easier, that improve efficiency, also reduce the demand for labor to achieve the same output.

Free markets are environments where companies, like biological organisms, evolve in competition. One of the fundamental pressures is of course profit. In other words, they're driven to evolve in ways that generate more profit. This can be achieved through increasing prices or lowering costs. The biggest cost is usually human labor.

Here's the reality.

Removing cheap labor by itself has fairly predictable results. If the cost of labor goes up, the cost of producing a product goes up and so the price of the product will go up to maintain profits. Then you've got to account for the competition from imported goods from places where they have cheap labor. To stay competitive with the imported goods, producers then have to cut costs so they can bring prices down while staying profitable. How is this done? You can only get so much labor from a single laborer, so producers will turn toward things like automation to decrease the labor requirements.

Alternatively, the government can intervene to tip the scales.

How might they go about this? They can artificially increase the cost and therefore, the price of imported goods, through tariffs. That can of course go horribly wrong because trading partners react by increasing their own tariffs on what they import from us. Another way in which this is done is through subsidization, something a number of sectors already rely heavily on, particularly agriculture.

What isn't going to happen is that jobs that are being done by illegals are going to become good paying jobs. That's not to say that we should allow companies to exploit illegal immigrants for cheap labor but it should be understood that in solving that problem, we'll be facing a slew of others. It should also be understood that cheap labor from illegal immigrants is actually forestalling automation, not adding to it, in terms of technological unemployment.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:57 AM
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originally posted by: mikell
Common sense isn't so common as they say. But they will legislate stupid as far as they can.



I find that the people who most often lament how "common sense isn't that common" are usually those who only consider things superficially — first order thinkers.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 11:58 AM
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a reply to: seasonal


a world of hurt from the corporate bed we allowed to be made


And that is the nutshell, right there. The people have allowed this to happen by allowing ourselves to be turned into consumers instead of independent citizens.




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