ATS DEBATE ROUND 2: onlyinmydreams v. Dragonrider

ATS Great Debate
Round Two

onlyinmydreams v. Dragonrider

Topic: The alien visitation phenom is a complete hoax or fiction, extraterrestrial beings have never been to this planet.

onlyinmydreams will take the affirmative position, agreeing with the statement and will have first opening statement.

Dragonrider will take the contrary position, disagreeing with the satement, and will have first closing statement.

Editing of your posts is strictly prohibited! For obvious reasons. Editing your post results in immediate forfeiture.

1- Competitors assigned the affirmative position go first with an opening statement, and have right of passing their opening statement post to their contrary position competitor. Opening statements cannot contain links.

2- Each competitor in turn contributes FOUR posts to support their side of the topic. (For a total of five posts) These are the only posts within the debate that may contain links to articles, or embedded pictures/graphics. (one link or graphic per post).
For round two, no more than 12 hours between posts or you forfeit your turn.

3- The competitor representing the contrary position has first right of closing statement. As with the opening statement, they have an opportunity to pass to their competitor representing the affirmative position. Closing statements cannot contain links.

4- Each competitor can submit one rebuttal to their competitors closing statement, but cannot exceed 200 words. Rebuttals are not required.

This is a total of 12 posts, the debate is closed, and voting begins. Forum members will vote on the merits of your capabilities arguing your side of the position, not their opinion of the position.

The debate begins immediately. Opening statement from the affirmative side is due by 17:00 GMT tomorrow, or the opening statement is passed to the contrary side.

Good luck, and have fun.



[Edited on 30-6-2003 by William]

[Edited on 2-7-2003 by William]

Well, hello good folks... I'll be your designated hitter for this debate.

Have extraterrestrials visited this planet, as many around the world claim today? Well, if we were to use the broad definition of 'extraterrestrial', I might have to concede immediately, as there are many scientists who believe that fossilized, microscopic organisms found in a meteorite that was recovered in Antarctica are actually from Mars, a planet which may once have had liquid water on its surface... and life.

However, this debate hinges on the word "visited" -- a word which implies conscious, planned efforts on the part of an intelligent or 'aware' species of beings. So... even if those microbes are really microbes, and really from the red planet, they certainly did not plan on coming here. What we are debating, here, in essence, is whether or not intelligent life has come to earth. We are not seeking to prove or disprove if life, of any kind, exists throughout the depths of the universe beyond earth.

Now, the first thing one does, often, when trying to show how ET visitation may be real is to point out the extreme vastness of the universe... and the fact that all the elements needed for life to occur exist beyond the Earth in that universe. The pro-ET visitation camp can, justifiably, point to these vast tracts of space, filled with perhaps countless worlds, and make the assumption that somewhere, among them, life must have begun as it has here on earth. ...Well, the pure size of space is also the great undoing of the pro-ET visitation position, as there is, due to this, a GREAT deal of space between any two stars and the planets that might orbit them. Einstein taught us that no object can travel faster than the speed of light, and that, as an object approaches the speed of light, it needs more energy, compared to what it did before, to accelerate itself. So, even a species that is thousands of years ahead of us will need to be able to command vast quantities of energy to shorten an interstellar flight to a time frame of YEARS. True, Magellan's crew took four years to circle the earth, but they could also walk on deck and breath, land at harbors and collect fresh water and food, and go fishing. A starship, as it is accelerating to near the speed of light (at which point time dilation will effcetively 'speed up' the flight for its crew), and as it is decelerating on approach to earth, would need to contain ALL of the supplies it crew would need. Now, we know that, as a species becomes more mentally advanced, its brain requires more enrgy (food) to function, and needs, to be frank, variety and entertainment to stay at 'optimum' performance. As such, a starship would need to contain everything the crew needs within its decks... and each one of these items increases the energy it would need to get moving near lightspeed in the first place. So, though not impossible, an interstellar journey would require one BIG and EXPENSIVE ship that would take A LONG time to get here.

But what about 'faster than light' travel? Well, no accredited scientist has yet to show a way in which an object can move faster than the speed of light. Sure, you can say, they "bend space" or "warp" through "hyperspace"... Well, to be frank, the opposition will have to prove that such athing is possible before they can use it as a method for ET propulsion.

As for 'nearby' orgins of ETs... robotic probes have been sent to every planet in the solar system save for Pluto, and no sign of intelligent life has ever been foind there.

So, if 'aliens' can't get here, what are people seeing. Well, as you'll see as this debate goes on, i plan to argue that people are seeing images of archetypes, from within their subconscious, during dreams... and that these dreams ARE the abductions people report.

Anyways, with that, i'd like to hand it over to DragonRider,

Jim, aka "onlyinmydreams"

Not only have aliens indeed visited earth, but they have done so long before our presence on this planet. Indeed, a good deal of evidence suggests that we humans are here on this planet specifically because of alien intervention.

In my previous debate, I successfully proved that a number of oddities in the evolution of the human species Homo Sapiens pointed to early genetic intervention of humans by aliens. These included a very obvious and unexplained acceleration in human evolution at approximately 200,000 years ago, something that had never occurred in the fossil record at any other time in earths history. I also pointed out that genetic evidence still existed for the genetic manipulation of the human genetic makeup.

Indeed, I also pointed out obvious historical evidence that an alien presence persisted on this planet and was recorded in historical references, with the mask of the description of a less technically oriented people.

Now, I hear people asking, what does this have to do with Jims original argument? Quite a lot actually.

Because, if you consider that aliens have had a hand in human evolution and their historical development all along, a good deal of our very history and technical and scientific knowledge becomes highly questionable.

Jim asks, how is it possible for the earth to have been visited by alien intelligence if it is impossible to traverse interstellar distances at faster than light velocities? The answer is, how do you know it is not? Indeed, we have no published evidence indicating that this is possible, and a good deal of published evidence indicating that it is not possible. However, if we consider the possibility that aliens have been here all along and have had a hand in our scientific development, it is quite possible that they have directed our scientific investigations in directions that would preclude the development of this technology.

Indeed, we have evidence that a large number of previously impossible technology exists. From examination of scientific notes of Nikola Tesla and Thomas Townsend Brown, we have firm evidence of the possibility, feasibility, and efficiency of anti-gravity technology. Also, under scientific notes of T. Townsend Brown, the possibility of faster than light travel IS explored in a positive light.

Is this technology readily published? No. Why? Because it is deemed dangerous for the common people to know, and therefore is highly suppressed by the US government and military.

Does this preclude travel between the stars under our known technology? No.

There is of course the likely development of cryogenic technology, which would allow a large number of individuals to remain in suspension for centuries at a time as a ship crossed lightyears. This would also lend itself to the theories of local alien life, in the form of small local bases on the moon and mars. These would not leave the obvious signature of alien life arising indiginously from these planets, but would be easily concealed and be of small size.

The topic of local alien presence in our solar system in indeed very interesting. There is no obvious evidence that any local planet can support life, at least to the extent of evolving intelligent life. However, the number of sightings and encounters cannot be discounted. One of the best documented cases would be the sudden disappearance of the Russian Phobos II probe, in which 2 separate cameras photographed a large linear object in Mars orbit, over 2 km long, immediately before going offline for ever. This would indicate an obvious interaction with an alien intelligence and can only be explained by small discrete bases within out solar system.

Part of DragonRider’s argument, in fact its main point, seems to be that since ‘Aliens’ created what we think of today as the Human race… they must exist. Surely, if there is a ‘created’ there must be a ‘creator’? Well, I won’t repeat the debate from the last round here, but, suffice it to say, the evidence for humanity’s extraterrestrial genesis is far from convincing. The accelerated development that D-R speaks of, which singled-out Homo Sapiens Sapiens from other, archaic, Sapiens and Erectus types, and led to its complete replacement of them, can be explained using very earthly concepts. Basically, once our ancestors gained a certain level of ‘awareness’ and foresight, there was probably a psychological/neurological ‘arms race’ of sorts wherein conditions existing naturally on this planet – and not imposed by Marvin the Martian – rewarded those whose overall mentality was greater than others around them. As the type of intelligence possessed by humans allows them to control and alter their environments, and thus command greater food resources than they, otherwise, could attain with their natural bodies alone, a disparity between those with and without this intelligence would rapidly develop – most notably in the areas of family size and survivability. It does not require an Extraterrestrial Prometheus to imagine that a single genetic mutation, perhaps affecting speech or planning capabilities, occurred within a single individual or line of individuals tens of thousands of years ago, and that this mutation was so advantageous that those without it were rapidly displaced or destroyed. Sure, as D-R points out, other animals, after an advantageous trait has developed in their populations, take a longer time to reach the full development of this trait than it has taken humans to go from our ‘archaic’ to our ‘modern’ stages… But, can it really be said that a longer horn, or sharper tooth, or a more radiant snout is on the same level of advantage as language or abstract thinking is. Simply put, a sharper tooth allows you to kill one animal better, a sharper mind allows you to kill a thousand animals better. No, the rapidity with which modern man has developed does not necessitate alien intervention… it only requires a handful of neurological mutations that ‘raised the stakes’ for all humans and encouraged them to develop faster than sloths or kangaroos.
As for the point about technology… Yes, I admit, there may very well be a way to fly faster than lightspeed. After all, just 150 years ago the idea that a machine could go faster than 100mph was considered absurd. So, maybe a race of beings is so old, and so advanced, that their scientific principles are very different than ours. Well, in that case, why do they still need to use ‘vehicles’ at all… especially ships that can crash? Also, why, if they can seemingly travel through space and time with ease, do they still use needles, scoops, and probes to conduct their medical experiments, as is reported by abductees? Surely, they could simply ‘beam’ any physical material they need off of the person. To be frank, it seems strange that their engineering capabilities are far beyond ours, while their medical technology seems to be equal, or less than, ours.
Oh, and as for medicine… How is it that these aliens can breathe our atmosphere without any problems? Without getting sick? Without getting US sick?
But let’s get to one of the more interesting things D-R mentioned… that the ancient Gods, perhaps the Prometheus I mentioned or the YHWH (Jehovah) of the Judeo-Christian tradition ARE, in fact, aliens, and proof of intelligent alien life. Well, a great many psychologist and anthropologist have shown that, throughout the history of the human race, we have had ‘gods’ of some sort or another. However, they tend to point out that, in many cases, these beings seem to be projections of our subconscious… as we are, by definition, an ‘aware’ species, we are also aware of our mortality, and of the infinite mysteriousness of the universe. Without thinking, perhaps as a natural function of our abstract minds, we summon our creative faculties to create Gods and Demons through which we can integrate our consciousness with the world. That is, the presence of divine beings in human literature does not mean Ets have been visiting us, it just means that we have the capability to express the concept of divinity!
But, what of abductions? Well, along similar lines, it can be argued that the aliens encountered in these incidents are really archetypical projections from our inner minds… A concept that requires less ‘filling in the blanks’ than the ET Expedition hypothesis. Also, the ‘feel’ of abduction can be explained by the phenomenon of ‘night terrors’, a link about which I have provided below:
www.twincities.com...

Surely, you can see that a neurological misfire is more likely than a grand genetic experiment carried out across the span of 40 light years!


With that, I await D-R’s reply. Perhaps he has info on the Reticulan Strafleet’s latest ship deployments ; )

Basically, once our ancestors gained a certain level of ‘awareness’ and foresight, there was probably a psychological/neurological ‘arms race’ of sorts wherein conditions existing naturally on this planet – and not imposed by Marvin the Martian – rewarded those whose overall mentality was greater than others around them.
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

You are indeed observant... but unfortunately you are missing one small fact... the genetic advances that I was speaking of involved the specific genetic structure that allowed this “certain level of awareness” to arise in the first place. Indeed, this is a genetic artifact that has never arisen in the fossil record before or since. The genetic manipulation to which I refer is what specifically allowed this intellect to come into being.

In addition, one other fact that you are not taking into account is the fact that Homo Sapiens Sapiens evolved genetically at an accelerated compared to its contemporary that came away from “Lucy” as well, the Chimpanzee. As I mentioned in the previous debate, HSS and Chimpanzee split from Lucy at approximately the same time, however HSS has genetically advanced by a factor of 3 over that of the Chimpanzee in the same amount of time. I must point out that there is NO evidence that suggests that a superior intellect can affect the rate of genetic evolution in any way... unless of course you assume direct intelligently controlled physical manipulation of the genetic structure, which is exactly what I am driving at.

But, can it really be said that a longer horn, or sharper tooth, or a more radiant snout is on the same level of advantage as language or abstract thinking is.
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

In opposition, can a larger more powerful mind force a creature to form a physical trait they do not inherently have? Can a more brilliant mind make one form a sharper horn? No, not until such time that it has advanced technology to the point of prosthetic technology, or even further to direct genetic manipulation. However, this is the dilemma of HSS, as it IS that far advanced over the competition in the same amount of time, and there is certainly no way that HSS increased its genetic evolution by thinking about it.

And indeed, in the day BEFORE Homo Erectus or Homo Habilis, indeed likely before the days even of Australopithicines, who on the planet earth was playing with recombinant DNA codes? (For this is when the genetic manipulation of Humanity began) Certainly not anyone indigenous to the planet earth!

Well, in that case, why do they still need to use ‘vehicles’ at all… especially ships that can crash?
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

An interesting direction to take things in. It is also interesting to note that throughout history, as we learn more about UFOs and aliens, they seem to be more and more scientific in nature, and less and less mystic/magical as they have been seen throughout history.

There is certainly the theory being floated that indicates that all scientific and technological advancement is finite and will eventually reach a “wall” beyond which advancement will be impossible. Indeed, considering the staggering advancement we have made in science and technology in the past 100 years, it is clearly possible that we may well be closing in on that “wall” and we can only make technology slightly smaller or lighter or more compact once we reach that wall.

It is certainly conceivable that any alien intelligence has likely hit this “wall” long ago. They have to use ships of such types simply because there is not a physical alternative available. These ships may well be as good as it gets. As to why they crash, are you sure that they just happen to crash? Considering the investment that the government and military have put into reverse engineering the alien craft it has obviously recovered over the years, it would appear that we are now using that same technology against the aliens, leveling the playing grounds a bit.

Also, why, if they can seemingly travel through space and time with ease, do they still use needles, scoops, and probes to conduct their medical experiments, as is reported by abductees?
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

In the case of abductees, do not presume to generalize that the medical technology used on such abductees are the same medical technology reserved for the aliens themselves. Compared to the aliens, we are still a very primative race of creatures, and likely require a much different form of medical technology. Therefore the aliens are more than happy to tailor this medical technology (which by all accounts is still far in advance of modern medical technology) to the requirements of the mission for use on the humans.

Remember, they created us, therefore it would stand to reason that they know exactly what type and level of medical technology to get the job done.

How is it that these aliens can breathe our atmosphere without any problems? Without getting sick? Without getting US sick?
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

As the aliens obviously chose a planet with a thriving oxygen atmosphere, it is obvious that they understood that an oxygen rich environment would be the best available for a thriving diverse biosphere. Indeed, there is no indication of any other form of atmosphere than is capable of supporting such a wide ranging biosphere, therefore, it stands to reason that the aliens themselves are likely oxygen breathers.

As far as the concern for cross contamination and biological infection there are 2 possible explanations: First, as they are obviously masters at genetic manipulation, it would be only a momentary concern for the aliens to design immunities for any and all cogent biological infection agents that might be encountered. Second, and more likely, if 2 species are biologically dissimilar enough, they will be unable to be infected by the others respective diseases.

Well, a great many psychologist and anthropologist have shown that, throughout the history of the human race, we have had ‘gods’ of some sort or another. However, they tend to point out that, in many cases, these beings seem to be projections of our subconscious…
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

I would refer you back to a point made in my previous debate and ask you to explain the mystery of the Dogon Tribe: A stone age tribe that still exists in Mali Africa, with no connection to the modern world whatsoever. Without any possibility of access to a telescope or other astronomical information, the Dogon has recorded (100s of years ago) very specific astronomical facts that have only recently been verified with modern scientific means. Psychological projection of our psyches may give us impressions of gods, but it does NOT produce empirical scientific data that is verifiable remotely with modern direct observations. (Especially when this data is recorded over 100 years before it is confirmed with the Hubble Space Telescope)

along similar lines, it can be argued that the aliens encountered in these incidents are really archetypical projections from our inner minds…
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

Surely, you can see that a neurological misfire is more likely than a grand genetic experiment carried out across the span of 40 light years!
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

I will certainly grant you that the possibility exists of some form of hallucinatory reaction in the human mind that could possibly account for SOME (not all, unless you are prepared to prove a race memory spanning a substantial portion of the entire human race) alien abduction reports. However in taking this direction, you are ignoring a vast number of other items.

These items include the fact that reports of alien abductions are remarkably uniform across the globe, irregardless of a victims nationality, ethnicity, age, sex, or cultural background. As I mentioned above, are you prepared to prove the existence of a race memory that would explain why so many people report the SAME thing? This would be bordering on global ESP among all abduction victims.

In addition this theory does not adequately explain the recorded images of UFOs and aliens on vast hours of video recordings. (Also strange that these video recordings tend to show the exact same features that abductees report on a regular basis around the globe). Also, it doesnt adequately explain the phsyical evidence left behind in the form of implants found in the bodies of many abduction victims.

www.cfree.org...

Again, psychological projection does not create physical evidence that can be surgically removed from the victims bodies....

Unfortunately, I see that the great DragonRider is still using his “humans exist, so they must have been made by aliens” argument to support the notion that this earth is being, or has been, visited by aliens. Well, to cut to the point, and save us all about 100 pages of response, here, what D-R is arguing is, in essence, the old ‘proof of God’ argument… namely, that, because a self-aware race (humans) exist, who can comprehend (or try to) the natural structure of (a) world, than God must exist. This argument is based on the assumption that ‘awareness’ MUST be bestowed from above, and that it CANNOT originate on its own. In the argument used by D-R, the aliens serve the same purpose as God, as they seem to be the force that ‘allow’ humans to exist in the first place…
Well, let’s be frank, the argument that “Aliens exist because you exist… because you can think” is an argument that lacks any true support. The assumption, here, is that ‘thinking’ and ‘awareness’ CANNOT evolve or develop on their own, without intervention. So, presuming that Aliens DID genetically alter our race hundreds of thousands of years ago, so that we could be ‘aware’ of our environments, who, I ask, altered THEM in the past so that they could do the same thing? Either they were altered by an external force, as D-R’s argument seems to imply, or they evolved sentience ON THEIR OWN. Now, If they evolved all of their thinking skills on their own, why couldn’t humans have done the same? And, if their mental abilities were given to them by an external force, well, we can keep tracing such interventions back until we reach ‘God’ as the originator of consciousness.
So, if I have extrapolated D-R’s reasoning correctly, I must disprove the existence of God before I can disprove the existence of aliens who have visited the Earth. Well, guess what, I am not even going to take up this task because it is an obvious trap… designed to draw everyone away from the notion that ‘awareness’ or ‘intellect’ can evolve on their own, without extraterrestrial or divine intervention…
Now, let’s break this idea that ‘thinking’ is artificial for good: On my way home from a store today, I ran across a family that was walking one Chow Chow and one German Shepard. Both were beautiful animals, well bred and well cared for. Obviously, though, the Chow was far more ‘altered’ from its original wolf stock than the Shepard was. Now, could this Chow, heavily altered as it was, survive in the wild?…. Well, NO! The thing could barely get its mouth around a leaf it wanted to play with. Though HEAVILY MODIFIED by an outside force (man) it was not a viable type of creature in the wild. In fact, its selected modifications would HINDER its survival in the wild. Now, let’s look at the human race: Do our ‘differences’ from other primates aid us in nature? Well, yes… So why is it so hard to believe that they must have been artificially enforced? The ability to plan, feel, and communicate through language makes me one thousand times more powerful than the strongest silverback gorilla in the jungle, so why must such abilities be artificially selected for by beings that are not natural to this Earth? Clearly, it seems that the initial mutation that gave us these abilities would have quickly become the “A-Bomb” of the prehistoric world.
Ah, but D-R is claiming that the mutations, in the first place, must’ve been caused by aliens. Well, then, I guess the aliens have been around since the beginning of time, as every animal on earth is a collection of beneficial mutations. They must’ve invented the gill, the flipper, the feather, the tusk, the eye… it goes on from there, but, suffice it to say, each element of a modern creature first started as a mutation in the distant past. The rapidity of humanity’s ascendance ONLY means that our peculiar mutation is really cool…
So, let’s get back to reality, and the offensive. I’m at a disadvantage in that I have to prove a negative, while D-R seems to be safe with speculation on his side. Well, I dare him to provide me with ANY proof that aliens are visiting the Earth. A SINGLE video of an alien getting out of a spaceship would do the job (even a SINGLE photo of an alien would win this for him)… Yet, no such documentation exists on this earth, even in a culture where people are rapidly buying machines that are combinations of phone, camera, and computer. So, after 50+ years of UFO sightings, why no shots of ETs walking around? I mean, heck, even Gary Hart got caught!!!
And, so far as technical stuff goes, does Jane Goodall use twigs and leaves when she examines a Chimpanzee? No. So, why should we expect aliens to use needles, probes, scrapers, and other recognizeable devices on humans when they are abducted and examined? To prevent letting their technology out?!!! Ha, if they can fly between stars at the tap of a button, then, even if we observed them at work, we would still not be able to reproduce their technology, such are the extreme constraints of star flight…
…Which D-R has still not addressed adequately. So, how do the aliens get around the fact that, as you approach lightspeed, cosmic particles will begin to tear into your flesh at greater speeds? Oh, yeah, we just don’t understand it, so it must exist, right? In the same vein, the aliens just ‘picked’ a planet with their exact home atmosphere to begin their experiments… and, lucky them, they just happened to find a hominoid race on that planet! Ahh, it’s good that the “their technology is better than ours” argument can be used to automatically deflect any criticism of their (the aliens’) capabilities.
Anyways, folks, I’ve gotten long, so let me just summarize a few things here before I sign off--- Dragon wants me to disprove God, essentially, so as to disprove the presence of aliens on earth. He also, for every ‘technical’ question, assumes that the little buggers have just ‘gotten around’ the problems inherent in each of them without having to adopt technology that looks different than ours. He is, in essence, saying that I can’t disprove the existence of super, all-knowing, all advanced beings who leave NO evidence of their activities…. Well, as this is a trap in his favor, obviously, I turn around and ask him to positively prove the existence of ONE ET.
So far as abductions and night terrors go, I will talk more about that next timje I post.

Jim

The assumption, here, is that ‘thinking’ and ‘awareness’ CANNOT evolve or develop on their own, without intervention.
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

Either they were altered by an external force, as D-R’s argument seems to imply, or they evolved sentience ON THEIR OWN. Now, If they evolved all of their thinking skills on their own, why couldn’t humans have done the same?
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

Actually, you do misinterpret my arguement. I never at any time mentioned that it was impossible for intelligence to develop without intervention. However, the speed at which our (human) overall development took place indicates that there WAS intervention.

For example, I point to the other highest developed species on the planet: In the realm of the invertebrates, the octopus is the most advanced and closest to intelligent form of life. It took over 3.5 billion years of evolution to reach this pinnacle, and as you can see, it still has a significant distance left to advance.

In the realm of mammals, aside from ourselves and our nearest relatives the Chimpanzee (which I have already proven that our genetic development is ahead of by a factor of 3), there is the dolphin, which has been in the evolutionary running for over 50 million years.

Then there is us, Homo Sapiens Sapiens, who have been on this planet since our earliest form for less than 5 million years (from “Lucy”, or Australopithecus Afarensis), at which point we split with what later became Chimpanzee (in 5 million years, that is the maximum amount of evolution that Chimpanzee managed?). Now, truly self aware intelligent human life has only existed for 200,000 years.

Perhaps you know see the great mystery of human evolution that zoologists and anthropologists have been mystified by for decades now.

So, presuming that Aliens DID genetically alter our race hundreds of thousands of years ago, so that we could be ‘aware’ of our environments, who, I ask, altered THEM in the past so that they could do the same thing?
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

A very good point. It is interesting to note that in the description of the experiences of the vast majority of alien abductees (which is startlingly uniform across the entire planet, unaffected by cultural/ethnic/age or any other boundaries) points to a dual heirarchy of observed aliens. There are at least 2 main types of aliens described (and indications of multiple others), that include mainly the “greys” and the “reptoids”. The information gleaned from debriefing abduction victims indicates that the “greys” are essentially the workers, apparently genetically engineered from the ground up to provide intelligently controlled labor in a potentially hostile environment while the “retoids” appear to be the main controlling force behind the “greys”.

It would appear that humans are not the only success that the alien intelligence have had in genetic engineering.

Obviously, though, the Chow was far more ‘altered’ from its original wolf stock than the Shepard was.
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

Actually, this is an incorrect statement. While selective breeding can indeed enhance or suppress specific physical attributes of a species, it DOES NOT directly affect the genetic makeup of the species. On a genetic level, both the Chow and the Shepard would show near identical qualities to the parent Wolf.

but D-R is claiming that the mutations, in the first place, must’ve been caused by aliens. Well, then, I guess the aliens have been around since the beginning of time, as every animal on earth is a collection of beneficial mutations.
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

I believe this is where you are misinterpreting my arguement. At no time did I ever argue that the entire development of hominids was the result of overall alien genetic engineering. Indeed, I would put forward that the basic ancestor of HSS, Australopithicus Afarensis, was a product of normal evolution. I just put forward that this life form presented the most promising material for aliens to work on in terms of genetic engineering. Again, as I have mentioned, at about 5 million years ago, Chimpanzee split off and essentially has evolved very little... meanwhile, hominids have evolved at 3X that rate. What I also put forth is that the aliens likely had very little to do with genetically engineering any physical mutations that would create a favorable or unfavorable advantage to hominids, indeed, that was pretty much cast in stone way back around “Lucy”; likely the only genetic mutation that was engineered was associated with the development of intelligence and in order to speed up overall evolution (again, 3X!) in order to further this engineering to our brain structures.

In terms of the difference of the dog breeds you cite, I would say that although there is a striking physical difference between the breeds, which is obviously the direct result of selective breeding, the characteristics that “matter”, such as overall intelligence, is virtually identical between the two breeds. But then, humanity is only now just getting to the point to manipulate genetic structure, and therefore we still rely on old methods of manipulation such as selective breeding to create physical differences. Our alien creators obviously had much greater sophistication than we currently have.

Yet, no such documentation exists on this earth, even in a culture where people are rapidly buying machines that are combinations of phone, camera, and computer.
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

I could go on (with perfect validity) about the fact that if the alien intelligence still has a hand in human activity to this day, that would provide motive and ability to have all such evidence (which does in fact exists in a multitude of forms) debunked, discredited, or diluted with actual hoaxes, ect. In general, the power structure set up and manipulated by the alien intelligence has a built in mechanism to suppress such information.

However, to address this issue more directly, I will put forth probably the best documented case of alien photography, and the least likely to be a hoax of any kind. This would be the case of the Phobos II incident.

Phobos II was an unmanned probe launched by Russia to orbit and survey Mars and its moons, Phobos and Deimos. On March 28, 1989, Phobos II detected and subsequently photographed a previously unknown object in orbit around Phobos, moving towards the probe, and then immediately after transmitting these photographs, Phobos II went offline, and was never recovered.

On March 31, 1989 Headlines dispatched by the Moscow correspondents of the European News Agency (EFE) stated: "Phobos 2 Captured Strange Photos of Mars Before Losing Contact With It's Base." Vremya revealed yesterday that the space probe Phobos II, which was orbiting above Mars when Soviet scientists lost contact with it on Monday, had photographed an UNIDENTIFIED OBJECT on the Martian surface seconds before losing contact." Scientists described the UNIDENTIFIED OBJECT as a thin ellipse 20 KILOMETERS LONG! It was further stated that the photos could not be an illusion because it was captured by 2 different color cameras as well as cameras taking infrared shots.

bjbooth.topcities.com...

Please note the statement :”It was further stated that the photos could not be an illusion because it was captured by 2 different color cameras as well as cameras taking infrared shots.”

Please also note the photo attached at the bottom of this post.

So, why should we expect aliens to use needles, probes, scrapers, and other recognizeable devices on humans when they are abducted and examined?
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

My response would be, why not? It is a technology that gets the job done. What kind of technology do you envision? There are only so many ways to introduce a chemical into a biological body... Indeed, although our current medical technology is centuries ahead of surgeons in ancient Rome, scalpels and forceps used then and now perform the same function, and an ancient Roman surgeon would still recognize the same modern instrument, even though we now use stainless steel.

So, how do the aliens get around the fact that, as you approach lightspeed, cosmic particles will begin to tear into your flesh at greater speeds? Oh, yeah, we just don’t understand it, so it must exist, right?
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

Actually we DO understand this technology, and it DOES exist (it has existed since the 1950s, but has been well suppressed) to this day. As I mentioned earlier, the work of Thomas Townsend Brown and Nikola has been developed by the military in Project Winterhaven and has already been proven to provide hypersonic velocities with virtually no aerodynamic drag, as this technology (Magneto-Hydrodynamic propulsion) creates an electro-gravitic gradient (gravity gradient) that envelopes the vehicle, and the air immediately surrounding it and moves the entire envelope at increasing speeds. Because the air immediately surrounding the vehicle does not move relative to the vehicle, there is no problems with aerodynamic friction (which is what you are speaking of in analogy with the subatomic particles at relativistic speeds). By extension, when used in space, this drive would provide a “shield” as all particles next to the vehicle would have zero relative motion, and therefore would not impact the vehicle.

It is worth noting that several physicists who have studied T. Townsend Browns work (before it was suppressed in the 1950s) postulate that because of this “gravity bubble” isolation effect, this technology could well allow speeds in excess of the speed of light.

I do have a great deal of supporting material on this subject, but cannot post due to debate limitations. I will do so on the next turn.

You know what, I won't hide it or lie---- I really liked DragonRider's last post. This isn't just because it finally got down to 'classic' alien issues, but because he took up my challenge and posted a photo of a 'real' alien spaceship. Very gutsy.. and, it COULD have won him the debate...

Well, first, let me acknowledge a few things:
-The 'object' in the photo is certainly menacing looking
-It DOES give you chills when you look at it
-Strange things have happened to Mars probes, and a seemingly disproportionate number of them seem to have been 'lost' over the years
-I concede that, after looking into this, the photo itself IS real and wasn't doctored. I was also worried that D-R might respond to my challenge with this photo as, coming from a government source, and a space agency at that, it would seem to have a great deal of provenance...

...But, after reading up on Phobos II (or Fobos II as the Russians spell it), it turns out that this mystery object is no mystery at all. You see, the type of camera the probe uses takes pictures in 'strips'. The photo you see is actually a composite of several of these strips. Now, a glitch during filming results in a blank 'strip' somewhere in the composite photo. Go back and look at D-R's photo. The 'Martian Battlecruiser' (Ok, I'm being mean, D-R didn't call it that but I just had to have fun with this) is, essentially, one long 'strip' with two smaller strips alongside its bow and stern. Superficially, even, it resembles the type of error in printing you get when something is wrong with your computer's printer. that is, it even LOOKS like a computational error.

Also notice that the Martian Battlecruiser is flying along the EXACT AXIS of the composite photograph, just as an error in processing would appear. It is not at any kind of an offset angle, either to Phobos or the probe, just as a flawed 'strip' would appear in a composite.

For more information on the Martian Battlecruiser, please go to the following article:

www.space.com...

Notice that it is from Space.com, a very well-respected space news website, not something called "WWW.REPTOIDSATTACK!!!.COM."

So, now that the Martian Battlecruiser has been shot down in glowing flames, let's go back to D-R's 'enhanced evolution' argument:
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear before... I do understand that D-R is NOT saying that aliens created us, and all life from scratch... I was just extrapolating his ideas to their fullest limitations. He has replied by saying that he didn't mean to sound like he meant that intelligence couldn't evolve on its own, as a mutation, and so the aliens, without the help of uber-aliens, could have, themselves, evolved intelligence. He is saying, instead, that the rapid rate at which humans have developed indicates 'outside help'. Well, to this I can only say that we really have no idea what the appropriate scale for the development of intelligence is. Yes, the last 200,000 years have seen a huge leap forwardby humans, but why isn't this a natural happening? Perhaps, once a certain trait develops, beings DO leap forward like this? In fact, it's not so hard to imagine that the development of 'awareness' MUST cause a rapid increase in culture and technology among a certain group that posseses this awareness. After all, if you 'realized' one day that you lived in a cave, smelled like an animal, and would only live to be about 25, wouldn't you want to change as much as you could as fast as you could? By definition, 'awareness' MUST instigate profound changes within/by those who posses it upon first possessing it.

So far as Octopi and Dolphins go... Yes, they are intelligent, but they are also different. The Octopus' brain is a ring that wraps around the structures of its mouth. As complex as it is, it is extremely different from the human brain... So, there is no way we can compare them to us when trying to 'scale' intelligence (though Octopi are legendary in terms of their spatial problem-solving skills). Dolphins, though they possess 'mammalian' brains like our own, have dedicated a great deal of their mental power to things like echolocation. As they exist in an environment wholly different from ours, we can only guess as to whether or not their intelligence HASN'T jumped ahead, too, in recent time. Remember, though our mental powers leaped ahead, our bodies stayed the same for hundreds of thousands of years. Though D-R cites 200,000 BC as being around the time period that modern humans evolved, they did not leave behind 'cultural' artifacts until only around 30-40,000 years ago. Actually, save for the increase in skull verticalness around the time D-R cites, the human body, from late Homo erectus through archaic homo Sapiens unto modern homo sapiens, has pretty much stayed the same. There's no miracle here -- we just reached a 'critical mass' or 'boiling point' in regards to 'awareness' forty thousand years ago.

Now, as for Reptoids and their Grey drones..
What logic is there behind breeding a race only to have to come back later on to subvert it? Surely, we 'bred' dogs from wild wolves, just as D-R is claiming that HSS were 'bred' or 'tweaked' from archaic Homo sapiens or Homo Erectus, but we do not need to create 'intermediary' dog breeds to help us control our pets. We, also, have deliberately created dogs in a way that makes them easier to handle (aren't Chow Chow's cute and snugwy?). We love them, and they love us. Sure, we've created dobermans and pit bulls, but their purpose was to be used as attack and guard dogs. So, unless D-R is somehow able to show that the Reptoids created us so as to be their 'warriors', I think we can all see that there is no logic behind their actions.

As for abductee reports of 'reptoids', I refer to my post two messages ago. Abductions are most likely instances of 'night terrors'.. and Reptoids are most likely manifestations of the 'snake' or 'devil' from our collective subconscious.

In my next post, I will discuss the idea of reptoids and greays as subconscious archetypes further..

Thank you for your time, and godspeed to the crew of that Martian Battlecruiser!

The photo you see is actually a composite of several of these strips. Now, a glitch during filming results in a blank 'strip' somewhere in the composite photo. Go back and look at D-R's photo. The 'Martian Battlecruiser' (Ok, I'm being mean, D-R didn't call it that but I just had to have fun with this) is, essentially, one long 'strip' with two smaller strips alongside its bow and stern. Superficially, even, it resembles the type of error in printing you get when something is wrong with your computer's printer.
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

Well, I see that you have found an appropriate site dedicated to debunking what could easily turn out to be dangerously accurate information.

Indeed, the cameras used on Phobos II, as in the vast majority of all unmanned space probes, both Russian and American, including the famous Viking, Voyager, and Pioneer space probe all used the “strip scanning” method of imaging. However, strange isnt it that this is the ONLY instance of such an artifact appearing in such a way, in over 50 years of unmanned space exploration? Especially when this is linked to a spacecraft that then was lost for no apparent reason?

I have mentioned in numerous posts that there is NO SUCH THING as coincidence.

Could this image be an imaging “artifact”? I will grant you that possibility... However, this image was not captured by one camera, but by 3. Two (2) visible light cameras, operating at different angles, and one (1) infrared camera captured the same image, all at different angles.

”It was further stated that the photos could not be an illusion because it was captured by 2 different color cameras as well as cameras taking infrared shots.”

Now, assuming that this image was in fact an imaging artifact, it would have been limited to just one camera, and the others would have shown no image at all. Also, because all cameras were operating at slightly different angles, an imaging artifact caused by corrupt data on one scan pass would be confined to that one strip of data... however, the same image shows up in the correct place in all three image feeds: Therefore it was a real optical target in the camera path.

The Infrared camera image is likely the most telling for this case, as it does NOT operate off of visible light but from infrared energy. While it is conceivable that a single visible light camera may generate an imaging artifact from overexposure, light reflection within a lens, ect, such effects will not cause a similar artifact for IR as it is working in a totally different end of the spectrum. Again, because IR also caught this image, the target was REAL.

So, we have three completely separate data streams, totally unconnected to each other, and the government would have us believe that each has the same data error on it in the exact same place, generating the same image? Even though there was no previous problem with the imaging system on that particular mission and spacecraft, and even though no similar error ever occurred in the past 50 years on ANY previous spacecraft?

So, why has so little attention been paid to this particular case, and what attention is paid to it is aimed at debunking the obvious truth that Phobos II was intercepted in Mars orbit by a hostile force? Simply because, as I mentioned previously, there is a built in mechanism to debunk or discredit any information that becomes public that is potentially dangerous to the power structure. This information certainly qualifies for that! I would propose that the fact that the government is so interested in suppressing and discrediting this information (and this suppression is obvious when you see how badly their job of explaining the image is) goes much further towards confirming the existence of alien intelligence than anything else!

Yes, the last 200,000 years have seen a huge leap forward by humans, but why isn't this a natural happening? Perhaps, once a certain trait develops, beings DO leap forward like this?
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

This is NOT a natural occurrence, because not only has the human race advanced mentally, but genetically as well. As I pointed out previously, we DO have a yardstick to measure ourselves against, in the Chimpanzee who split off from “Lucy” at the same time we did... as we have left Chimpanzee in the dust, not just mentally buy genetically as well. Never, in the 4.6 billion years of earthly existence, and the millions and millions of species to ever live on this planet, both living and extinct, have we ever had such an instance of genetic evolution suddenly shifting into afterburner mode.

In fact, it's not so hard to imagine that the development of 'awareness' MUST cause a rapid increase in culture and technology among a certain group that posseses this awareness.
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

Very true, in that intelligence does lead to technological advances. However, this is not the subject we are discussing. Mental intelligence does NOT affect genetic evolution. I challenge you to show me how if 2 equivalent species, differing only in one possessing self aware intelligence, will genetically evolve at a faster rate than the non-intelligent relative.

Now, as for Reptoids and their Grey drones..
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

I see no contradiction in my previous post on this matter. It is clearly obvious that any intelligence with the technology to manipulate genetic structures, and not constrained by what we might consider “ethics” (An interesting side note, could ethics, which stops us from exploring many controversial scientific topics be ingrained into our being by such an alien intelligence to steer us away from looking in a scientifically “dangerous” direction?) could easily develop any number of genetically engineered races for a multitude of tasks.

What task is planned for the Human race? That is indeed a good question. Perhaps we are a very large scale experiment, simply to see how far we can progress on our own? Perhaps there is some metaphysical attribute that the aliens hope to find in us that for some reason they cannot achieve themselves. That is likely an answer that will be discovered when the aliens decide to reveal themselves to the world.

As for abductee reports of 'reptoids', I refer to my post two messages ago. Abductions are most likely instances of 'night terrors'.. and Reptoids are most likely manifestations of the 'snake' or 'devil' from our collective subconscious.
Posted by Onlyinmydreams

This does not adequately explain why almost all abductees have very unifrom matching descriptions of their experiences. It also does not adequately explain the numerous mass sightings by large numbers of people. And it certainly does not do anything to explain the physical evidence left behind during this cases.

Now, I would like to relate a bit of information on a topic originally brought up by Onlyinmydreams, and then abandoned when I did take it to task: That of interplanetary and possibly interstellar travel.

As I mentioned, we DO already possess technology to allow flight between the planets, and quite likely between the stars, in the form of Magneto-Hydrodynamic propulsion. This is a form of electromagnetic anti-gravity propulsion originally conceptualized by Nikola Tesla in 1889, and developed into a useable form by Thomas Townsend Brown in the 1920s. In this technology, very high frequency/voltage electrical currents form gravitational gradients around a vehicle, and move it with no air resistance in any direction at unlimited speed.

Electrogravitics might be described as a synthesis of electrostatic energy used for propulsion - either vertical propulsion or horizontal or both - and gravitics, or dynamic counterbary, in which energy is also used to set up a local gravitational force independent of the earth's. Electrostatic energy for propulsion has been predicted as a possible means of propulsion in space when the thrust from a neutron motor or ion motor would be sufficient in a dragless environment to produce astronomical velocities. But the ion motor is not strictly a part of the science of electrogravitics, since barycentric control in an electrogravitics system is envisaged for a vehicle operating within the earth's environment and it is not seen initially for space application. Probably large scale space operations would have to await the full development of electrogravitics to enable large pieces of equipment to be moved out of the region of the earth's strongest gravity effects. So, though electrostatic motors were thought of in 1925, electrogravitics had its birth after the War, when Townsend Brown sought to improve on the various proposals that then existed for electrostatic motors sufficiently to produce some visible manifestation of sustained motion. Whereas earlier electrostatic tests were essentially pure research, Brown's rigs were aimed from the outset at producing a flying article. As a private venture he produced evidence of motion using condensers in a couple of saucers suspended by arms rotating round a central tower with input running down the arms. The massive-k situation was summarized subsequently in a report, Project Winterhaven, in 1952. Using the data some conclusions were arrived at that might be expected from ten or more years of intensive development - similar to that, for instance, applied to the turbine engine. Using a number of assumptions as to the nature of gravity, the report postulated a saucer as the basis of a possible interceptor with Mach 3 capability. Creation of a local gravitational system would confer upon the fighter the sharp-edged changes of direction typical of motion in space.

The essence of electrogravitics thrust is the use of a very strong positive charge on one side of the vehicle and a negative on the other. The core of the motor is a condenser and the ability of the condenser to hold its charge (the k-number) is the yardstick of performance. With air as 1, current dielectrical materials can yield 6 and use of barium aluminate can raise this considerably, barium titanium oxide (a baked ceramic) can offer 6,000 and there is promise of 30,000, which would be sufficient for supersonic speed.

The original Brown rig produced 30 fps on a voltage of around 50,000 and a small amount of current in the milliamp range. There was no detailed explanation of gravity in Project Winterhaven, but it was assumed that particle dualism in the subatomic structure of gravity would coincide in its effect with the issuing stream of electrons from the electrostatic energy source to produce counterbary. The Brown work probably remains a realistic approach to the practical realization of electrostatic propulsion and sustentation. Whatever may be discovered by the Gravity Research Foundation of New Boston a complete understanding and synthetic reproduction of gravity is not essential for limited success. The electrogravitics saucer can perform the function of a classic lifting surface - it produces a pushing effect on the under surface and a suction effect on the upper, but, unlike the airfoil, it does not require a flow of air to produce the effect.

www.geocities.com...

Well, Since this is the last ‘long’ reply I am allowed, let me get to the nuts, guts, and bolts of the matter: DragonRider has yet to show a real photo of an Extraterrestrial Biological Organism. He has yet to show how such an organism could breathe and metabolize energy within the environments offered by the Earth. At best, he has mentioned a host of conspiracy theories, assuming that, since the ATS community is familiar with them, that these notions will be automatically accepted as fact by you. He mentions ‘reptoids’ and ‘electrokinetic’ engines as if they were obvious facts, visible to anyone who looks out their window, down their street, yet he gives no background for such devices or creatures. He just assumes that you will believe in them, sight unseen. He is, to be frank, hoping that the resources on this site will make his argument for him. He is also hoping that you will accept, lock, stock, and barrel, the conspiracy teachings of people like Paul Bennewitz, John Lear, and Bob Lazar as 100% truth -- so as to make his argument -- because, within it, he is only referring to ‘dark side’ UFO theories which he assumes that you will assume to be true. He mentions Reptoids and intergalactic progroms (not a spelling mistake), but relies on your imagination to fill in the rest and support the empty spaces in his argument.
The first problem, though, with his argument is the Phobos II (or FobosII) probe ‘evidence’. He claims that it saw an armed extraterrestrial vessel in orbit around mars, one that ‘shot down’ the probe itself. However, it turns out that the image he speaks of is a composite photo that included a glitch that generated a long string of computational errors that produced a developmental bar in the photograph… this ‘glitch’ being what D-R tells us is an armed alien warship… Well, if you look at any accredited space information source, this simply does not hold up… His argument that the ‘image’ we see of the alien ship is a composite of several different types of cameras working off of several different computers is NOT supported by the pure tech specs of the class of probes to which FobosII belonged. Below, I have linked to the tech specs for the same class of vehicle as the FobosII probe:

www.astronautix.com...

This info is from www.astronautix.com, a reference page on space and rocket technology that is used by teachers, librarians, and writers worldwide. It is a recognized and credible source… unlike the unnamed sources D-R seems to be using above. More important than the page I am linking to, however, are the other links that it refers to. Surely, we can see that the editors on this site have assembled a correct developmental history of the Fobos probes… this history also makes it clear that the photographic systems on the probe(s) were not integrated into one, uber-visual system like D-R has claimed. As such, the ‘martian battlecruiser’ he has linked to above was NOT recorded by various instruments onboard the probe, but by one camera, at on time (which was obviously broken, in some way, as I have shown in my previous post). Even if you don’t believe the serious and accredited sites I have referred you people to, I must ask you, would it make sense to build your probe so as that it could only take one type of processing, though from various wavelengths, at one time? Well, no, and that’s why the Russians built separate photographic systems onto that class of probe.
Getting back to pure ET issues, though, so far as greys and reptilians go, D-R has only given you more of the same, hoping that you will believe his AMAZING folktale without any serious proof. He says that Reptoids have been seen by abductees to ‘run’ the whole situation, yet institutions like the Center for UFO Studies (founded by Doctor J Allen Hynek of Northwestern University) have only been able to show, scientifically, that people report seeing vague ‘gray’ creatures during hypnotic regressions to UFO ‘abductions’. That is, there is NO serious evidence, collected by any accredited institution, that shows that the military of the USA is working with ‘reptoids’ and ‘grey’ drones to breed humans. Those serious institutions (Like CUFOS) that have studied the issue have been able to see a history of vaguely ‘gray’ beings, though, who approach abduction ‘victims’ during the night.
Do reports of these ‘greys/grays’ mean, though, that D-R is right and that we are being visited, though? No…. though they do mean that people are seeing ‘entities’ of some sort during the ‘night terror’ conditions of which I have spoken before. Must these entities be alien? No... and, if anything, far from it. They are representations of our subconscious, played out within the parameters of the modern world. They are, in essence, beings that we create so that we can understand ourselves, so that we can come in touch with the collective subconscious that all humans share. To be more detailed, they are the ‘trickster’ beings that we see in mythology, whom, appearing as a state between human and animal, animal and angel, seem to help us along, yet challenge us… as they are a manifestation of that very ‘awareness’ which Dragon Rider claimed proves the existence of alien visitation upon earth.
Instead of linking to a photo or website (I’ve already used up my one link allowance shooting down the ‘Martian battlecruiser’, again), I will instead refer to a book to support my conclusions: Flying Saucers: A Modern Myth of Things Seen in the Skies, by Carl Gustav Jung (ISBN: 0691018227, my copy was published in 1978 by Princeton University Press and was translated to English by R.F.C. Hull). The book is a collection of essays written by Jung in the 1950s, at which time, as the world’s most famous living psychologist, he was receiving reports and letters about UFOs (and their occupants) from all over the world. His fame, and the reason that he was, perhaps, getting so many ltters on the subject, was built upon decades of research into the idea that ‘archetypes’ of behavior and human conditions exist, or, I should say, pre-exist within the mental structure of all humans, and that these universal psychological structures can be seen in the art, literature, and religion of the human race. His ideas were also, it is important to point out, backed up by thorough research into the cultures throughout the world – that is, he did not just claim that things existed, but could, through numerous studies, demonstrate that they did…. Now, his conclusion in Saucers was that UFO sightings were a manifestation of these archetypes, though ‘modernized’ to fit into the post-WW2 atomic world. Flying saucers themselves, he pointed out, closely resemble the mandala, a religious symbol that represents the totality and ‘perfectness’ that comes with divine revelation or enlightenment. UFO occupants, who sometimes approached humans, resembled AND ACTED LIKE the demigods of ancient lore… that is, they’d provide the human with a puzzle or predicament (often a scary one) but, through either solving or coming to ‘accept’ the reality of that problem, the human reached a new level of understanding or spiritual development. In conclusion, Jung didn’t debunk the UFO issue as just pure hysteria, but, instead, saw it as a ‘real’ phenomena in the sense that these things that people saw existed, in a way, within their own minds.
Now, Dragonrider has claimed that the ‘universal’ appearance of alien creatures precludes them from being psychic manifestations… well, if one accepts the idea of a ‘collective unconscious’, then it should not be surprising that aliens ‘look’ the same way across the world. However, it should be noted that D-R is wrong when he says that aliens ALWAYS look the same way. In fact, if you go over the case files collected by UFO groups over the years, it becomes apparent that there are various types of ‘elven’ aliens out there. In Passport to Magonia the French researcher Jacques Vallee catalogued these types of creatures. If you search on Google under the words ‘magonia’, ‘list’, and ‘beings’ I’m sure you will come up with the online reproduction of the basic data he was working from. A simple perusal through the list will show you that aliens come in all shapes and sizes, though there does tend to be a trend towards ‘elven’ aliens. Anyone who tells you that aliens ONLY come in the form of greys or reptoids is wrong, and hasn’t looked into pre-1985 UFO history (at which point TV and, later on, the internet began to enforce the idea that aliens SHOULD look like insectlike greys). In fact, so far as the ‘greys’ go, if you look at the original drawings that existed of them, and not the ones created by web promoters, their appearance is decidedly more elf or leprechaun like than the modern, almost mechanical designs you see in graphics nowadays.
And, it should be noted, the ‘greys’ in South America have fur and fangs, in keeping with traditional ‘trickster’ creatures from that region’s mythology. So, do they just glue on fur for the sake of Brazilians?
So far as ‘implants’ go, I have never read or seen a serious report that says that those that have been ‘recovered’ from abductees are anything more than calcium deposits. The reports D-R speaks of that ‘show’ implants to be miniature mechanical devices are the products of John Lear, a notorious hoaxer (or disinformation man?) who is more famous for creating the whole Bob Lazar fantasy. In fact, many of the ‘reptoid/grey’ conspiracy stories that D-R hopes you will accept without question are the products of Lear and his friends.
D-R also speaks of reels and reels of alien footage. Where are they?
Anyways, if you want to look at an alien, go to the store and buy a box of ‘Lucky Charms’. The leprechaun on the front IS an ‘alien’. Also, check out Count Chochula, too. He’s the Slavic equivalent of the ‘Reptoid’. If you want to act-out one of the stories D-R has told you about, put the box of Count Chocula next to the Lucky charms one, then have the Count give Lucky some orders (add in Captain Crunch if you want to bring the military into it).

First of all, I have to apologize to my opponent, and to the rest of ATS. Taking so long to reply is unprofessional, and unbecoming a mod, much less the new mod for debate. All I can say in my defence is that I have had a bit going on lately that makes concentration difficult.

He has yet to show how such an organism could breathe and metabolize energy within the environments offered by the Earth.
Posted by OIMD

Actually, considering that an alien intelligence would have chosen earth due to an environment that can produce such a variety of life forms, its not a surprise. Although we have evidence of differing lifeforms that could potentially survive in many different environments, the only evidence we have of an environment that can host a lifeform capable of evolving into higher intelligence is the one that we currently inhabit, an oxygen rich temperate environment.

He just assumes that you will believe in them, sight unseen. He is, to be frank, hoping that the resources on this site will make his argument for him.
Posted by OIMD

Actually, I have posted some very good information on these subjects. Unfortunately, due to forum rules, I am limited to only 1 link per posting. I have posted numerous corroborating links on these subjects elsewhere on the site.

His argument that the ‘image’ we see of the alien ship is a composite of several different types of cameras working off of several different computers is NOT supported by the pure tech specs of the class of probes to which FobosII belonged.
Posted by OIMD

Actually, this site only corroborates my initial assertion that there WERE indeed 3 separate, independent camera/imaging systems that all photographed the “anomaly” or “spacecraft” independently. There is nothing in this link regarding how these three systems were interlinked and how an “artifact” could have potentially arose on one and affected the other 2 systems.

Here is a list of imaging equipment carried on Phobos, per your link:

panoramic stereo TV system, seismometer, magnetometer, X-ray fluorescence spectrometer, alpha particle scattering device, penetrator; thermal infrared spectrometer/radiometer - 1-2 km resolution; near-infrared imaging spectrometer; thermal imaging camera; magnetometers; gamma-ray spectrometers; X-ray telescope; radiation detectors; radar and laser altimeters; Lima-D laser experiment - designed to vaporise material from the Phobos surface for chemical analysis by a mass spectrometer; imaging radar - Only carried by Phobos 1.

This indicates that a stereo camera system (which uses 2 separate cameras at different offset angles to magnify dimensional differences on the target, and therefore 2 separate image streams, as the image reprocessing was done on the ground) and a thermal camera were available for this encounter. In addition, the thermal imaging camera would have ONLY recorded an image of a physical object giving off thermal energy... It recorded an image, and therefore there was SOMETHING there in the target space.

Surely, we can see that the editors on this site have assembled a correct developmental history of the Fobos probes… this history also makes it clear that the photographic systems on the probe(s) were not integrated into one, uber-visual system like D-R has claimed.
Posted by OIMD

Im sorry, I didnt see that anywhere on this page, could you point it out for me? Again, what I DID find was a listing of 3 separate independent imaging systems that all recorded the SAME image.

The book is a collection of essays written by Jung in the 1950s, at which time, as the world’s most famous living psychologist, he was receiving reports and letters about UFOs (and their occupants) from all over the world. His fame, and the reason that he was, perhaps, getting so many ltters on the subject, was built upon decades of research into the idea that ‘archetypes’ of behavior and human conditions exist, or, I should say, pre-exist within the mental structure of all humans, and that these universal psychological structures can be seen in the art, literature, and religion of the human race.
Posted by OIMD

Oh yes, the works of Carl Gustav Jung, whose works are now as well accepted as that of Freud and his idea that every vertical structure in the world is a homage to the human male erection. You fail to mention that the work of Jung is no longer used by any reputable psychology practitioner. The following is but a sample of the wide ranging opinions on Jungs work...

Jung's influence was in substantial measure a product of his association with the Rockefeller family, and he used it to advance the anti-biblical tenets of two of history's most notorious occultic movements — the Bavarian Illuminati and the Theosophical Society.
In his new book The Aryan Christ: The Secret Life of Carl Jung, Noll writes, "I am convinced by the historical evidence that Jung believed himself to be a religious prophet with extraordinary powers." It is not at all surprising that Jung felt a sense of religious vocation, as he came from a deeply religious family. "In my mother's family there were six parsons, and on my father's side not only was my father a parson, but two of my uncles also," wrote Jung. "Thus I heard many religious discussions, and sermons."
The Oxford Companion to the Bible points out that "Jung's early religious doubts seem to have centered around his conflicts toward his father and his deep-seated ambivalence, both toward his father and his father's religious views." In seeking a religious role model, Jung skipped a generation, overlooking his devout Christian father in favor of his grandfather, Karl Jung, who was equally devout in a markedly different fashion. Karl Gustav Jung was a noted medical doctor in Basel, Switzerland. A German by birth, Karl took up residence in Basel after being exiled from Prussia as a subversive. In Switzerland, recalls Noll, "[Karl] Jung joined a powerful secret society. In time, he became its supreme leader in Switzerland."
The society to which Noll refers is the Swiss successor organization to Adam Weishaupt's Bavarian Illuminati, which had been exposed and banned in the German principality in 1784. Noll points out that following the official suppression of the Illuminati, lodges of illuminated freemasons in Germany and Switzerland "continued to assemble and enact rituals under the guise of being patriotic clubs or philosophical societies." While living in Berlin, Karl Jung had become acquainted with one of these disguised Illuminists, Georg Andreas Reimel, who presided over a "Reading Society" in Berlin. Fraternal societies of this variety, observes Noll, were places where radicals could "congregate and conspire"; despite the supposed destruction of the Illuminati in Bavaria, "the Swiss lodges did not close down in the purges of the late 1780s and so were a haven for German Freemasons, both Illuminist and Rosicrucian."

reformed-theology.org...

It would appear that besides debunking UFO abductions, Mr. Jung was also very busy advancing the rule of the Illuminati and establishing a new religion for himself. A credibility issue, one might say?

I pass closing remarks to Onlyinmydreams

Humans, by their very nature, seem to have a need to come up with mythologies. They, we, need stories that deal with our instinctive sense that there are various mysteries `out there', in the depths of the sea, within caves, and beyond the stars. We also need stories that explain who we are, and what is within us.

Tales of Extraterrestrials `visiting' humans are just that… modern myths for the technological age. ETs may, and probably do, exist somewhere, but it seems unlikely, impossible, really, that they would construct interstellar craft for the sake of playing `doctor' with humans. Rather, the aliens we see in abduction and encounter stories seem to fill the role of the `trickster' god or archetype.

The idea that aliens are inspired by a mythological sense is NOT JUST the idea of Carl Jung… rather, it is an idea that is backed-up by the accumulated knowledge of the Religious Studies, Anthropological, and Psychological fields. Calling any one person a member of the Illuminati, while sidestepping the mythological issue, does not make it, or their ideas, go away...

And… In his replies to me, notice how D-R has, himself, relied upon internet folklore and the collective mythology of this community to argue his point….

Onlyinmydreams has gone far in pointing out that the idea of any extra terrestrial influence in the evolution and development of the human race is purely a combination of an artifact of the human psyche, a misinterpretation of human mythology, and a complete accident of evolution.

This point of view is very interesting from someone who places his argument in the hands of a psychoanalyst whose theories have been abandoned by all practicing psychiatrists across the board, and who also found it motivational to attempt to create his own religion and was reputed on many levels to be involved with the Illuminati. If this last assertion is true, there is indeed a good possibility that Mr. Jung was indeed part of the ingrained debunking mechanism that currently exists in government to deflect and squelch investigations that get a little too close to the truth.

The fact of the matter is that Humans have NOT evolved the way that any other known species in the fossil record ever has before or since. Humans have broken every evolutionary rule that zoologists have every posted, and no one seems to understand why. The explanation is very simple. We had some “help” early on in our evolutionary pattern in the form of genetic manipulation.

Now, as OIMD stated, there may well be a psychological aspect to this argument, but not the one that he is proposing: It is psychological in the sense that the human psyche, as it has been conditioned for all of recorded history to accept that they are a self contained and “natural” evolutionary product would not be able to deal with the reality emotionally or psychologically, if it were found that humans were “created” by an alien intelligence.

Are mythologies that seem to deal with ancient alien interaction mythical? Possibly. However, it is well known that most myths have at least a grain of truth to them.

OIMD challenged me to post a known confirmed photo of an alien OR UFO, which I did; the best studied and documented photo available, the last known photo from Phobos II probe. OIMD has spent a good deal of time and effort to try to debunk this photograph, and unfortunately failed. Although he did indeed stumble upon a government sponsored debunking website, upon closer examination of facts, namely that the image of a UFO was captured by 3 totally independent imagining systems and therefore it COULD NOT be an electronic glitch or a photographic artifact. Therefore, hard evidence of existing alien activity stands.

My reply to D-R's closing statement will deal only with technological clarifications, as I believe my social/psychological points stand well where they are...

Nowhere have I, or anything I linked to (including D-R's original webiste), said that the 'image' of the Martian Battlecruiser was recorded by more than one system on Fobos II. That is D-R's assertion. What i have shown was that ONE system, which utilizes a composite, image 'stripping' system, recorded a processing error TWO DAYS before the Fobos II was actually lost... an error which showed up as a white line on a photograph processed before the craft was lost. The point of my second technical link was to show that there were, in fact, separate sensory systems, but that they were not tied into the one that showed D-R's 'star destroyer'.. and, so, the original image D-R mentions could NOT be a composite of various sensors/systems (rather, the other on-board systems monitored nothing but moons and a planet).

So far as site credibility goes, both space.com and astronautix.com are used as references worldwide by many educational institutions, while the sites D-R cites are not. And, so far as Jung goes, his ideas are still of great use to many folklorists and scholars of literature (to whose purview this debate really belongs).. and, certainly, Jacques Vallee is still the world's most revered UFOlogist (he and Hynek served as character models for the movie "Close Encounters of the Third Kind").


*With these clarifications I rest my end of the debate*

What i have shown was that ONE system, which utilizes a composite, image 'stripping' system, recorded a processing error TWO DAYS before the Fobos II was actually lost... an error which showed up as a white line on a photograph processed before the craft was lost Posted by OIMD


The point of my second technical link was to show that there were, in fact, separate sensory systems, but that they were not tied into the one that showed D-R's 'star destroyer'.. and, so, the original image D-R mentions could NOT be a composite of various sensors/systems (rather, the other on-board systems monitored nothing but moons and a planet). Posted by OIMD

I believe you misunderstand my point... because you help to substantiate my point. If there WAS a process or imaging error, it is impossible for all three imagining systems, where were completely separate and independent, to to have recorded the same error. Per the link I posted, and per the Russian space agency, the SAME image WAS recorded on all 3 systems, therefore, it COULD NOT be an imaging error, and was therefore an actual physical object.

so far as Jung goes, his ideas are still of great use to many folklorists and scholars of literature Posted by OIMD

That may well be true, however, his credibility as a psychologist and therefore the credibility of his theory of "race memory" have been invalidated for many years now.

I rest my end of the debate.

The winner is declared Onlyinmydreams over DragonRider, by a vote of 22 to 21 (the closest vote on ATS to date).