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Looks like the Left will be destroying St. Louis tonight

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posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 08:01 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66


Let's take a bit of a different tactic here.

Can anyone understand the anger of the Black citizens of St. Louis in this case and in the other similar cases?


I can -- from both sides. I've seen the best of LE here in my AZ town and the worst of LE in the greater Los Angeles area where I grew up. Having good cops that you can trust is awesome and a source of security and stability and safety. Having to watch your back anywhere and everywhere because you know cops will harass you (and worse) for God only knows what reason is exactly the opposite of security and stability and safety. One questions anything and everything regarding LE because you know you cannot trust them, and they have the power to make your life hell... or to take your life on a whim.

Living with such anxiety and fear long-term can create a condition similar to PTSD which is called Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (C-PTSD):

Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (C-PTSD) is a condition that results from chronic or long-term exposure to emotional trauma over which a victim has little or no control and from which there is little or no hope of escape, such as in cases of: domestic emotional, physical or sexual abuse.


It's not just domestic abuse though, like an abusive husband beating his wife or a mother beating her kid, but also situations like war, including urban inner cities with gang warfare, and I'm betting in cities and towns with LE that bullies -- not protects.

Bottom line: No good comes from letting rogue LEOs run roughshod over the people they should be serving and protecting.




posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 08:03 AM
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a reply to: Boadicea

Absolutely.

More good reasons why it makes no sense to focus on race or political ideology in these matters.

/thread




posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 08:18 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66


What we are saying is that there is a very credible threat to all Americans, Black or otherwise, from rising use of lethal force by LEOs.

Arguing that we approach the matters involved here REALISTICALLY is not an appeal to emotion; it's a call to action.


THIS^^^. That cannot be said enough... and bears repeating.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 08:33 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

Damn. Damndamndamndamndamn!!!!!

So a closed pocket knife? Am I really reading that right??? I need to read more...



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 08:39 AM
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originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: Grambler





I cited FBI stats, and you ignored them and posted this.


Stats are clearly important to your POV, so any chance you can find me what you consider to be the most accurate stats with regards to how many people died as a result of hurricane Irma in and on the U.S mainland ?

Useful info for me when I have a chance to give a bit of thought to my reply to you on our earlier exchange....


It appears as if around 30 have been confimred killedd, though I didn't delve deep into it.

Look I am not just interested in stats cause I like numbers or something.

The stats we are discussing here are relevant because we are trying to determine what is causing the problem.

The claim is that black americans are justifiable angry that they are being targeted and killed by the police.

So we need to look at if this claim is accurate, and what are the causes for these police shootings.

Saying that we should ignore this and instead just admit that police are targeting unarmed blacks at disproportional numbers does nothing to solve the problem.

If I said "Other races are justifiably angry at black people for the diprportionate amount of violent crime they commit" you would first want to investigate rather or not that claim is true that blacks commit more violent crime.

Next, you would say even if hat is true, what are the reasons for that, which would include the things I mentioned before; poverty, income disparity, history, cuture, interactions with law enforcement, and many more factors.

If I were to say "No we can not look at these facts and stats, they are questionable and they take away from the REALITY that people are justifiably angry" you would find that ridiculous.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 08:44 AM
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a reply to: riiver


I mean what do you THINK should be done about it? This is America, a country founded because people weren't happy and content with their treatment in Britain right? At least that's the popular understanding...

Should the people affected do as you and others do and just digest whatever disgusting reason is handed out?



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 08:52 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
A few quick points:

My argument in recent posts in this thread is the same core argument I was making all along: the citizens of St. Louis are angered by this latest decision (Stockley verdict) in a long line of questionable killings by police. This anger is deep-seated. This anger is justified and understandable (by many). This anger is going to continue to grow unless the causes are addressed directly.


Agree with mosst of this.

Adressing the causes means looking at factors from both sides instead of just starting under the assumption that one side is always wrong.

That is why we must look at the reasons police are having these encounters and shootings. Ignoring the reasons for these encounters and just alluding that police are racist solves nothing, and leads to more extremes on both sides.


The anger and resultant civil unrest, rioting, property damage and so forth, are the REALITY in this situation. Those who choose to approach the matter via an elitist, pseudo-intellectual approach, arguing that statistics (that are misleading at best) are the important factor here, are pretending to some "higher" standard of reasoning which totally ignores the REALITY of what we face as a society here, to wit, that a large group of our citizens believe (with reason) that they are targeted by law enforcement and continue to be killed even when unarmed at an alarming rate and further that we are ALL potential victims here as the one statistic that is relevant here is that "killer cops" are on the rise.


You have given no reason that stats are misleading. You have failed to address the Harvard study that shows unarmed whites are more likely to be shot by police, and have provided no evidence to the contrary.

Looking at facts is not ignoring reality; asserting that people have reason to believe that police are targeting them for shootings because of thier race while claiming we shouldn't look at the facts behind that belief is in fact ignoring reality.

That is how we get people spreading lies like "Hands up don't shoot"



The entirety of this thread focused on Black Americans. Of course, dog-whistle terms like "leftist" and "urban" are offered ... but we all know what's going on here. This discussion is another in a long line of not-so-subtle suggestions that somehow Blacks are intrinsically different than other races (as has been OVERTLY claimed here.)


Again, you are the one claiming that blacks are some monolithic group that are all angry about police, ignoring white people rioting, and saying that for some reason looking at the factors and facts as to why these shootings happen is wrong ONLY when discussing black people is treating black people differently.

Again, the best study shows that unarmed whites are more likely to be shot, yet you ignore this.


A common tactic that we've seen deployed here, against my posts and others, is that we're claiming that Blacks are inferior. Yet, when these posters are asked to provide evidence of such obnoxious claims being made (by me and others) they cannot do so. Why? Because that's not what I and others are saying.


See above. Claiming that we shouldn't look at factors and facts as to why these shootings happen ONLY when its bl;ack people is treating them differently.

And you have repeatedly alluded to the fact that people disagreeing with you are using the same thoughts as Jim Crow, or saying blacks are inferior, and yet provided no evidence.


What we are saying is that there is a very credible threat to all Americans, Black or otherwise, from rising use of lethal force by LEOs.

Arguing that we approach the matters involved here REALISTICALLY is not an appeal to emotion; it's a call to action.


Then why focus on race?

I have no problem discussing police use of force; but starting from the position that the police must be evil and not looking at factors from all sides as to why that violence may be increasing is not being reaalistic, and is an appeal to emotion.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 08:56 AM
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originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: Grambler


Put 100 White people from a cross-section of America in Room #1.

Put 100 Black people from a cross-section of America in Room #2.

Publishers Clearing House will give you a Million Dollars if you pick the room that has the most former criminals. Which room would you pick?




And this means what exactly? I would have to ask if we're going by actual convictions or people who actually committed crimes convicted or not?

Also take into account, which group has war waged upon them by their very countries government? Making this ridiculous suggestion mute.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 09:02 AM
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The high percentage of the problem is the child of the war on drugs. it turns out the madness in Refer Madness isn't about the so call drug itself.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 09:04 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66



You're welcome, although you continue to respond to general posts as if they were directed at you. Try not to deal with discussion so emotionally.


Thanks for the advice! I think that just about everyone can see who is taking things personally and getting emotional here though.



My "mentality" is keeping society from finding an answer to anger over our discriminatory law enforcement and judiciary? Wow, I'm quite powerful, eh? What an absurd comment in a long line of asinine posts.


Its not the you invented the mentality. But you share the same mentality as the rioters, that refuse to look at facts and just scream thaat the police are racist. As long as this mentality controls the discussion, none of these problems will be solved.






Another blatant lie. What I've said is that the statistics that you and others here keep chanting are misleading, ill-used, out of context and in several cases, simply untrue. I'm saying that we should deal with the reality of the situation, which is the anger and distrust and beliefs that our police and courts are patently unfair.


You literally said to stop looking at stats and instead look at how people feel.

You have personally not addressed any specific stats is pointed out, and instead lump them all together and say they are all misleading or something.

This is not the behavior of someone looking to have a serious discussion. It is the behavior of someone who has made up their mind and refuses to look at different view points.



This isn't an equation and there aren't only two sides. That sort of partisan-based, media-fed nonsense is a big part of the problem here, not to mention, its a strawman stuffed by you to backup your absurd approach to my comments.


Of course there are more than two sides. You are the one discussing black [people as monolithic and saying they are angry, ignoring the whites rioting, etc.

You through out the word strawman alot, while posting that posters that want to look at facts must always trust the state and cops, or are harkening to Jim Crow. I don't think you know what the word means.

And this doesn't address that some leo's or [ro leo people suggest only feeling their anger and ignoring facts that other have, just like you are doing; and it is equally dumb.









Let's look at the facts instead of the hackneyed, manipulated stats you keep waving around so proudly. Let's look at the REASONS for why these events keep occurring, not the elitist analyses of difference. Your argument that we can't address the REALITIES of anger, distrust and resentment here because you claim these are less worthy of consideration that arbitrary calculations based on questionable data is asinine, backwards, self-serving, arrogant and simply wrong.

As is the stupid remark that "the rioters" are driven only by impulse and passion rather than justifiable resolution.

And stop with the pathetic lies and misrepresentations that you can't back up. Such garbage tears down the quality of these forums.


You constantly have asserted that anyone looking at the reason for these [police shootings thinks blacks is inferior. That is the pathetic lies and misrepresentations happening.

I am looking for the reasons why these events occur. You have m,ade up youor mind that the reason is that cops are violent and racist, and refuse to look at any facts that could actually help explain these shootings.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 09:05 AM
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a reply to: Grambler


If I said "Other races are justifiably angry at black people for the diprportionate amount of violent crime they commit" you would first want to investigate rather or not that claim is true that blacks commit more violent crime.


To put those stats in perspective, while it is statistically true that most violent crimes are committed by a Black person -- a Black man specifically, it is also true that it is a very small number of Black men committing the majority of those crimes, and the vast majority of those Black men committing those crimes are gangbangers. So while it is technically accurate to say that "Black people commit most crimes," it is very wrong to assume that translates to "Most Black people commit crimes."

In fact, I read once that proportionately speaking, Whites are more likely to commit a crime than Blacks.... and more likely to get away with it. In other words, a larger percentage of White people commit crimes than Black people.

And do remember one more thing in considering these statistics, if/when police focus their policing efforts more on Blacks than Whites --

Cop ordered in secret recording to stop-and-frisk young blacks males

-- then more Blacks than Whites will be arrested and charged with more crimes necessarily. There cannot be statistics for other-than-Black crimes that police ignore, eh???

There is an excellent in-depth analysis of Gangs and criminal activity here if you want to read more about it:

Crimes Gang Members Commit



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 09:08 AM
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a reply to: Greven

I have already said this once, but perhaps I wasn't clear.

Lets assume (which I honestly believe) that the victimization charts you provide are true.

That still shows that in some of these very poor inner city black neighborhoods, violence is far more likely.

This means that violent encounters with police are more likely.

For people to want to ignore this and just draw the conclusion that police are racist is the problem.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 09:22 AM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Grambler



To put those stats in perspective, while it is statistically true that most violent crimes are committed by a Black person -- a Black man specifically, it is also true that it is a very small number of Black men committing the majority of those crimes, and the vast majority of those Black men committing those crimes are gangbangers. So while it is technically accurate to say that "Black people commit most crimes," it is very wrong to assume that translates to "Most Black people commit crimes."


Thank you for proving my point!

Should I take the tactics of others here, and say that you are harkening to a bigotted area by looking at the factors behind the statistics, as opposed to understanding peoples justifiable anger? Of course not.

Not only do I agree with this paragraph, I continually drive this point home to anyone trying to smear all black people as violent. Notice on this thread I discuss how the overwhelming majority of black people are not violent.

The police shooting of black people are by far more frequent in those gang areas you are discussing.


In fact, I read once that proportionately speaking, Whites are more likely to commit a crime than Blacks.... and more likely to get away with it. In other words, a larger percentage of White people commit crimes than Black people.


I would be interested in seeing those stats.

I have posted the violent crime stats, which show that blacks are far more likely to commit violent crime by proportion than whites.

Again, this is skewed because of gang members. I have no evidence for this, but I bet that if we just looked at violent crime stats for non gang white and black people, the numbers would be very close to the same.

This is relevant because the majority of the violent police encounters with black men occur in these gang areas.



And do remember one more thing in considering these statistics, if/when police focus their policing efforts more on Blacks than Whites --



-- then more Blacks than Whites will be arrested and charged with more crimes necessarily. There cannot be statistics for other-than-Black crimes that police ignore, eh???


I will answer below.


There is an excellent in-depth analysis of Gangs and criminal activity here if you want to read more about it:

Crimes Gang Members Commit


You are right that is good analysis. This speaks to what I am saying; there are areas of black gangs where the proportion of violence is staggering.

So yes, the police are profiling in these areas, and are more likely to have high intensity exchanges such as shootings in these areas.

Now am I saying all police are good and all shootings justified; hell no! Again, my post history on ATS will show I criticize police when I feel they are in the wrong.

But we need to look at factors from all sides instead of just asserting that one side is just bad and racist.
edit on 18-9-2017 by Grambler because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 09:35 AM
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a reply to: Grambler

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I think we both recognize and agree that there is far more to be considered than simple one-dimensional statistics. There are just sooooooooo many factors that have to be examined individually and collectively. Ugh!

I hope we can also agree that some folks don't want that thoughtful examination to happen, and are quite busy (and happy) twisting and contorting the facts and the truth for a personal and/or political agenda.... not to mention exploiting and extorting the legitimate anger and fear of the people most affected... with BLM leading the pack. It's not an accident or a coincidence that the absolute worst behavior is being encouraged and enabled by those who should be setting the best example. In the big picture, both sides are guilty of doing the same thing: "ALL cops are bad" is no better than -- but serves the same purpose as -- "ALL Blacks are bad."



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 09:41 AM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Grambler

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I think we both recognize and agree that there is far more to be considered than simple one-dimensional statistics. There are just sooooooooo many factors that have to be examined individually and collectively. Ugh!

I hope we can also agree that some folks don't want that thoughtful examination to happen, and are quite busy (and happy) twisting and contorting the facts and the truth for a personal and/or political agenda.... not to mention exploiting and extorting the legitimate anger and fear of the people most affected... with BLM leading the pack. It's not an accident or a coincidence that the absolute worst behavior is being encouraged and enabled by those who should be setting the best example. In the big picture, both sides are guilty of doing the same thing: "ALL cops are bad" is no better than -- but serves the same purpose as -- "ALL Blacks are bad."


I couldn't have said it better.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 10:13 AM
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originally posted by: Grambler

Thanks for the advice! I think that just about everyone can see who is taking things personally and getting emotional here though.


You're welcome! I'm sure they can. I'm sure they're about as interested in it as I am.


originally posted by: Grambler
Its not the you invented the mentality. But you share the same mentality as the rioters, that refuse to look at facts and just scream thaat the police are racist. As long as this mentality controls the discussion, none of these problems will be solved.


Why do you make such obviously dishonest statements. I have spent post after post here looking at the facts. I have not said once that the police are racist. The only "mentality" that fails here is the one that thinks that mere words and statistics have any meaning on the streets.


originally posted by: Grambler

You literally said to stop looking at stats and instead look at how people feel.



Another blatant lie. Quote me. You can't, because that's not what I said, that's the way you're desperately trying to mischaracterize what I've said. You keep making these lying claims about things I say but you can't quote me saying them. Quote me. Or stop the stupid concentration on me and discuss the matters at hand.


originally posted by: Grambler

You have personally not addressed any specific stats is pointed out, and instead lump them all together and say they are all misleading or something.



What rot! You're gesturing to "stats" that you couldn't cite last night because of your computer. You regurgitate talking points but haven't CITED anything. You place so much importance on every word you type that anytime you think something hasn't been properly acknowledged and addressed you pout. Grow up.


originally posted by: Grambler

This is not the behavior of someone looking to have a serious discussion. It is the behavior of someone who has made up their mind and refuses to look at different view points.


Actually, I'm not willing to have the discussion on YOUR TERMS and you can't deal with that. Too bad.


originally posted by: Grambler

Of course there are more than two sides. You are the one discussing black [people as monolithic and saying they are angry, ignoring the whites rioting, etc.



I'm addressing Black Americans BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU WANTED TO ADDRESS! You started spouting "stats" about the Black community in response to descriptions of the MOTIVATING FACTORS in these protests and "riots." What a hypocrite you are becoming!


originally posted by: Grambler

You through out the word strawman alot, while posting that posters that want to look at facts must always trust the state and cops, or are harkening to Jim Crow. I don't think you know what the word means.

And this doesn't address that some leo's or [ro leo people suggest only feeling their anger and ignoring facts that other have, just like you are doing; and it is equally dumb.


Yada yada, more crap about what you believe about me. Your posts express in absolutes and one-dimensionality and petty self-interest. You get ignored and you throw a tantrum. Again, get over it.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 10:15 AM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Grambler

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I think we both recognize and agree that there is far more to be considered than simple one-dimensional statistics. There are just sooooooooo many factors that have to be examined individually and collectively. Ugh!

I hope we can also agree that some folks don't want that thoughtful examination to happen, and are quite busy (and happy) twisting and contorting the facts and the truth for a personal and/or political agenda.... not to mention exploiting and extorting the legitimate anger and fear of the people most affected... with BLM leading the pack. It's not an accident or a coincidence that the absolute worst behavior is being encouraged and enabled by those who should be setting the best example. In the big picture, both sides are guilty of doing the same thing: "ALL cops are bad" is no better than -- but serves the same purpose as -- "ALL Blacks are bad."


Do you believe that the entirety of "BLM" is homogeneous? If so, can you explain why?

Has anyone in this conversation stated that "All Cops are Bad"? Who, when, where?

You have great patience in dealing with these issues, Bo.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 10:18 AM
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Let's have done with this garbage. Enough grandstanding and egotism.

So, we've identified the issues. Shall we look at ways to solve them? And things we here can do as individuals to help with the situation?

To me, the uniform issue that both "sides" seem to agree on is unwarranted police violence.

Actually, in the years since Officer Stockley killed Smith, (which happened before Ferguson), there have been some proactive moves in many police departments across the nation. Can we agree that there's not one way to address this issue? That a "mixed" approach is probably best?

Here's a handy list of problems we need to address from a fairly well-known source (ACLU):



The range of police problems includes —

1) Excessive use of deadly force.

2) Excessive use of physical force.

3) Discriminatory patterns of arrest.

4) Patterns of harassment of the homeless, youth, racial minorities and gays, including aggressive and discriminatory use of the "stop-and-frisk" and overly harsh enforcement of petty offenses.

5) Chronic verbal abuse of citizens, including racist, sexist and homophobic slurs.

6) Discriminatory non-enforcement of the law, such as the failure to respond quickly to calls in low-income areas and half-hearted investigations of domestic violence, rape or hate crimes.

7) Spying on political activists.

8) Employment discrimination — in hiring, promotion and assignments, and internal harassment of minority, women and gay or lesbian police personnel.

9) The "code of silence" and retaliation against officers who report abuse and/or support reforms.

10) Overreaction to gang problems, which is driven by the assumption that those who associate with known gang members must be involved in criminal activity, even in the absence of concrete evidence that this is the case. This includes illegal mass stops and arrests, and demanding photo IDs from young men based on their race and dress instead of on their criminal conduct.

11) The "war on drugs," with its overbroad searches and other tactics that endanger innocent bystanders. This "war" wastes scarce resources on unproductive "buy and bust" operations to the neglect of more promising community-based approaches.

12) Lack of accountability, such as the failure to discipline or prosecute abusive officers, and the failure to deter abuse by denying promotions and/or particular assignments because of prior abusive behavior.

13) Crowd control tactics that infringe on free expression rights and lead to unnecessary use of physical force.


Can we use that as a starting place in the discussion? Or does someone have a better idea?

I'm not going to participate in the senseless bickering in this thread any longer.
edit on 18-9-2017 by Gryphon66 because: Noted

edit on 18-9-2017 by Gryphon66 because: Format



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 10:27 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

Why do you make such obviously dishonest statements. I have spent post after post here looking at the facts. I have not said once that the police are racist. The only "mentality" that fails here is the one that thinks that mere words and statistics have any meaning on the streets.


No you haven't. You have not addressed any of the stats, and have instead lumped them all together and said they were wrong or misleading.

You posted a question of rather blacks committ more crimes, or if police arrest them because they are unable to defend themselves.





Another blatant lie. Quote me. You can't, because that's not what I said, that's the way you're desperately trying to mischaracterize what I've said. You keep making these lying claims about things I say but you can't quote me saying them. Quote me. Or stop the stupid concentration on me and discuss the matters at hand.



Your exact quote, "If you want to start from a place of honesty, stop talking statistics and start talking anger, most of it justified."








What rot! You're gesturing to "stats" that you couldn't cite last night because of your computer. You regurgitate talking points but haven't CITED anything. You place so much importance on every word you type that anytime you think something hasn't been properly acknowledged and addressed you pout. Grow up.



I cited the thread where we discussed this in 2015 with all of the stats, I cited the harvard study showing unarmed whites are more likely to be shot than blacks.

You have not once responded to any of this.




Actually, I'm not willing to have the discussion on YOUR TERMS and you can't deal with that. Too bad.


My terms are discussing the reasons why these shootings are occurring.

You terms are having to not look at stats or the reasons behind the shootings, and instead just admitting the anger at racially unjust shootings is justified.





I'm addressing Black Americans BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU WANTED TO ADDRESS! You started spouting "stats" about the Black community in response to descriptions of the MOTIVATING FACTORS in these protests and "riots." What a hypocrite you are becoming!

The first stat listed in the conversation between us was you saying 22% of police shootings were black people despite being only 6% of the population.

You have continually acted as if the black community is monolithic and outraged by the police actions, when that is not true.

You keep hurling insults and lies, and its a bad look for you.




Yada yada, more crap about what you believe about me. Your posts express in absolutes and one-dimensionality and petty self-interest. You get ignored and you throw a tantrum. Again, get over it.



You are the one claiming what you believe about other people, that those that want to look at the reasons for these shootings are like jim crow or somehow think blacks are inferior.

I have thrown no tantrum.

I am sorry that you are unwilling to look atr the factors of these shootings and feel that people pointing out why this is not good is somehow throwing a tantrum.



posted on Sep, 18 2017 @ 10:29 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66


Do you believe that the entirety of "BLM" is homogeneous? If so, can you explain why?


Short answer "no." Long answer is that I believe -- at worst -- BLM was knowingly and deliberately structured as a so-called "leaderless" movement in order to enable and empower the worst of human nature within its ranks without having to take responsibility for it. At best, even if it wasn't knowing and deliberate, the end result is the same... and those who knew it would happen let it happen.


Has anyone in this conversation stated that "All Cops are Bad"? Who, when, where?


Not in this particular conversation that I've noticed, but in many others, and the inference is always there -- even if unspoken. My apologies if I wasn't clear enough and/or I suggested otherwise. I was trying to make a point within the big picture.


You have great patience in dealing with these issues, Bo.


Slow and steady wins the race!!!



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