Before I answer your questions Byrd.
Let us first define history: History is a chronology of past events, events that are agreed upon by those who write it, by a certain point of view.
History is also political. That is that the events that accord with a particular politics. I am sure you have heard of the adage "history is written
by the victorious" this basically summarizes the subject for history for us.
So, before you go referring me to what has been recorded by Historians or written in Encylopedia as evidence, please do consider that I don't
believe in this institution. A lot of it is full of lies, misinterpretations and misrepresentations. I reserve the right, as an independent thinker,
to analyse them myself and arrive at my own interpretations.
In western history(written by western Historians) which is the history we are taught in schools, so are given an incomplete picture of world history.
We are taught about Greek mathematicians, scientists, philosophers and their accomplishment. We are taught about Roman engineers and architecture.
Yet it is fact now that the Eastern civilizations were far more advanced. Barely anything is taught about them. Are we taught of ancient Indian atomic
theory, mathematics, production of zinc and steel, and the schools of science and logic and medicine and surgery? No, because if we were, it would
invalidate the history of the west. It would mean many men and women who have degrees in history have been preserving lies.
In the western capitalist and materialist civilization, the truth is less important than the profits. The many truths that find their own niche in
western society as "conspiracy theories or mythology" of extraterrestrials, psychism and alternative science, alternative history and medicine
threaten the very structure of western civilization. It undermines the control of the elite. If either of these existed, they wouldn't want you to
What does having a degree in history mean today? It means you're indoctrinated. You have been conditioned with thoughts and political facts and
methodologies of thinking. You've been taught what is wrong and what is right - you've been taught dogma.
What value is there in history if lies like Aryan invasions fabricated by imperialists are perpetuated by it. If we want to know history, we need to
start with a fresh canvas, take a holistic approach(i.e. world history) and anaylse all the evidence objectively. Yes, even mythology is evidence.
Modern Indian historians are rediscovering their past. More power to them.
Heck, yes. It didn't vaporize everything; only things in the immediate blast aea. In the huger area of the shock wave, there was a lot of
rubble, objects flung for miles by blast waves, radiation (still in some areas), metal slag, glass slag, changes to the ground. You could also tell by
roads that led into the area (and out of the area.) And then there's graveyards full of bodies of the same age that show trauma and radiation
damange, and landfills full of garbage that exist and were in existance at the time, and all the underground things (cellars, etc.)
No, you wouldn't. I made the proposition that had you not
known about the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic blasts, and went there on vacation,
would you know? No, you wouldn't have. Yet, you bring up an interesting point. As an archeaologist, however, you would find evidence of blast,
vitrified rock, metal, changes to the ground and irradiated corpses and skeletons.
Does that sound like what has been found in Mohenjadaro and Harappa? Vitrified rocks, irridated skeletons scattered about the streets, some holding
hands as if a calamity had befallen. As well as the radiation poisoning of the villagers there. This is thousands of years later. If you cannot accept
this. Then you most certainly cannot say that you would have known Hiroshima and Nagasaki suffered an atomic blast. For that would be hypocritical,
would it not?
Actually, there's no real "proof" there. One report, some anecdotes, and an artifact that "conveniently" disappears. And a designer who
"studied" a text that didn't exist until 1929.
Isn't that what history is? Some reports, anecdotes and artifacts? Isn't history largely based on testimony? How can you accept testimony of some,
and not of others with the same credentials.
There is only one report of the flight of this ion engine. I wonder if this is because there was only one flight?(wink) Now, it was not as if this was
a flight in front of the fellow villagers. It was in front of the Maharaja of Baroda, who was knighted, the state judge and the most credible press.
It also recognized by some western Historians and accepted as history by Indian scholars.
The reason this artifact does not exist is because it crashed, remember? And after that funding for the program was stopped by the British government,
who were not happy with the implications of an Indian discovering flight, that too from ancient literature.
The equivalent is the President of America, the states supreme court justice and the New York times providing their testimony of an event. Would you
As for the "texts" the Vyaamanika Shastra was one of many. And, you are misinformed, the texts were documented by Shastri in several note books
between 1905 and 1920(source: India ADA) He and Swami Dayanada had given Talpade assistance in designing the craft.
Actually, it isn't clearly described. You'd find that kind of description in a used car brochure. Heck, you see better descriptions of
engines in "Star Trek" literature.
Before I answer this, let me remind you that the actual ion engine was made, flown and documented. Now, let us compare the modern Ion engine and the
engine described in the Sanskrit text:
‘Inside the circular air frame, place the mercury-engine with its solar mercury boiler at the aircraft center. By means of the power latent in the
heated mercury which sets the driving whirlwind in motion a man sitting inside may travel a great distance in a most marvellous manner. Four strong
mercury containers must be built into the interior structure. When these have been heated by fire through solar or other sources the vimana (aircraft)
develops thunder-power through the mercury."
The power is latent within the Mercury
The mercury-engine is placed inside a circular air frame
It contains four containers/chambers built into the interior structure for the Mercury.
The mercury is then heated by solar rays which develops thunder power(thunder is electricity)
This sets a whirlwind motion and develops thunder power from the latent power in the Mercury(obviously ejected to produce thrust)
Now, the modern Ion engine by NASA:
solar-electric propulsion engine or solar-ion propulsion engine,.
The engine works by bombarding vaporized Mercury(Cesium and Argon are also used) with electrons from solar cells, which ionizes the gases. The Mercury
vapor contained in the container is released into the ionization chamber, where it is then bombarded by electrons generated by the solar cells to
ionize the gasses which causes it to heat up, which then is accelerated out of the nozzle to achieve thrust.
The power is latent within the Mercury(the ions)
The engine is placed inside the frame of the craft
It contains several chambers/containers built into the interior structure for the Mercury
The Mercury is bombarded electrons, produced from solar rays, which generate electrons that ionises the Mercury vapor and causes it to heat up
This causes the acceleration of hot ionized mercury vapor which is then ejected of out of nozzle to achieve thrust
It is identical and very clearly described. You said there are "better desciptions" of the warp drive engine in Star Trek. Geez, could this be
because Star Trek is written by science writers who have degrees in physics?
And are you forgetting this is from a thousands of year old text? Even a few hundred years ago from Da Vinci's theoretical descriptions of flying
machines which are recognized as the closest the ancients were to flight were crude, involved primitive materials(sticks and leather) and could not
get past the concept of flight past kites. Flight was visualized as people peddling on bikes to operate wings.
Here are some of Vinci's illustrations:
To then get a text that is even ancient by Da Vinci's standards that discusses modern solar electric propulsion and metal aircraft that fly in the
air due to thrust produced by an engine, and dismiss it, would be extremely ignorant.
Are you going to deny all of this?
That information isn't quite accurate. There are several "agencies" with important sounding names that re "researching" and "studying"
these. When I went and located the sites for the "departments" and "agencies" they were all connected to some sort of yogic school.
I will give you an entire list of the researchers and scientists that are not from "yogic schools"
Dr. K. Ramchand, Director, The Centre for Airborne Studies.
Dr. T.N. Prakash, panel coordinator AR & DB.
Wg.Cdr. A.E. Patrawalla, Honorary Secretary, AeSI, Bangalore.
Dr. P. Ramachandra Rao, Director, NML, Jamshedpur.
Air Cmde. P.S. Subramanian. V.M, Bangalore.
Dr. B.G.Siddarth, Director Birla Science Centre, Hyderabad.
Dr. Maheshwar Sharon, Dept. of Chemistry, IIT, Bombay.
. Dr. K.H. Krishna Murthy, Former Professor of Ayurvedic Medicine, Pondichery Medical College, Bangalore.
GP. CAPT. M. Matheswaran VM. Indian Air Force.
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., Bangalore.
Oriental Research Libraries, Pune and Baroda.
Sri. S. Krishna Murthy, Director, Public Relation, ISRO, Bangalore.
Indian Institute of World Culture, Bangalore.
National Metallurgical Laboratory, Jamshedpur
Birla Science Centre, Hyderabad.
Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay.
Academy of Sanskrit Research in Melkote
Indian Space Research Organization
Hindustan Zink Ltd
Some background on some of the institutes involved:
Birla Science Centre, Hyderabad
THE B.M. Birla Science Centre here has held a special ceremony on Tuesday to mark ten million visitors to the institution that has started in 1985.
The centre has a planetarium, a science museum and a dinosaurium. It is recognised as an institute of higher learning and for research and
According to Dr B.G. Sidharth, Director-General of the centre, no less than 20 Nobel Laureates, three Prime Ministers and any number of public
dignitaries, Governors, Chief Ministers and Ambassadors have taken part in its multifarious activities.
He says that the B.M. Birla Planetarium is not only the best attended planetarium in the world but also has been acclaimed to be amongst the very best
with a better rating than those in Europe, the US, Far East and Soviet Republics. Similarly, the science museum has unique facilities that include a
participatory science museum and fine arts section. The dinosaurium, on the other hand, displays a rare fossil of the dinosaur, kotasaurus, belonging
to the lower Jurassic age.
The Indian Space Research Organization:
The Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) was established in 1969 and is currently under the Department of Space. The Chairman of ISRO since 1984,
Prof. U. R. Rao, stepped down and was replaced in April, 1994 by Krishnaswamy Kasturirangan, who also carries the titles Secretary of the Department
of Space and Chairman of the Space Commission. With headquarters at Bangalore, ISRO now boasts of a workforce of approximately 17,000
The corporate headquarters of the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) is located in Bangalore, but, activities related to satellites, launch
vehicles, and applications are carried out at numerous centers throughout the country. The development of the sensors and payloads is the
responsibility of ISRO's Satellite Application Center (SAC) in Ahmedabad. ISRO Satellite Center (ISAC) in Bangalore is responsible for the design,
development, assembly, and testing of satellites. Vikram Sarabhai Space Center (VSSC), at Tiruvananthapuram, is responsible for launch vehicles.
Liquid propulsion modules, including cryogenic engines, are developed at the Liquid Propulsion Systems Center located near Tiruvananthapuram.
Satellite launching takes place from Sriharikota, north of Madras, referred to as SHAR. Hassan, near Bangalore, is where the Master Control facilities
for satellite station keeping are located. The reception and processing facilities for remote sensing data are available at National Remote Sensing
Agency (NRSA), in Hyderabad.
The Indian Institutes of Science and Technology
As per a special cover story by Asiaweek in 1999 on the best universities in Asia. The IITS ranked as follows:
4. Indian Institute of Technology, Delhi
5. Indian Institute of Technology, Madras
6. Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay
7. Indian Institute of Technology, Kanpur
National Metallurgical Laboratory, Jamshedpur
The National Metallurgical Laboratory, the third in the Council of Scientific & Industrial Research family of 38 laboratories. The foundation stone of
NML was laid on 21.11.46 by the first and only Governor General of independent India, Shri C.Rajagopalachari. The laboratory was formally inaugurated
and dedicated to the nation on the 26th of November, 1950 by Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru " in a sprit of hope and I faith in the future". The laboratory
formed part of the great plan, which Sir Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar visualised in 1940, for providing India with a network of research institutes capable
of taking the country forward in the Science & Technology. The establishment of the laboratory was generously supported, in cash and kind, by the Tata
Industries Ltd., Sir Ratan Tata Trust and Sardar Bahadur Sir Inder Singh of Indian Steel and Wire Products (ISWP) Company. Dr. Balraj Nijhawan, the
first Indian Director of the laboratory, set the pace for the rapid growth of the laboratory through the establishment of a number of pilot plants and
facilities and initiating research programmes which were in line with the Five Years Plans of the young Republic of India. NML has one Centre at
Chennai and one field station at Ahmedabad
Industrial Processes: Mineral Beneficiaiton, Extraction of Metals, Development of Refractories / Ceramics, Process Optimisation and Modelling;
Engineering Materials: Synthesis and Development of Materials, Materials Forming Processes, Materials Characterisation
Resource and Environment Conservation: Waste Utilization, Secondary Metal Processing, Corrosion and Protection, Component Integrity Evaluation (CIEP)
/ Remaining Life Assessment (RLA), Pollution Control;
Technical Services: Chemical Analysis, Material Characterisation, Testing and Evaluation, Failure Analysis, Engineering Consultancy, Calibration,
Standard Reference Materials, Training & Certification, Hall Marking, R & D Management and IP acquisition
Indian National Science Academy
Indian National Science Academy plays a crucial role in promoting, recognizing and rewarding excellence. Another important task is to publish
journals, organize scientific discussions and bring out proceedings and monographs.
The Academy promotes public awareness and understanding of science. Acting as links between the scientific community and the planners, they advise the
governments on critical issues. Importantly they serve as forums for interaction among scientists within and outside the country.
The Indian National Science Academy was established in January 1935 with the object of promoting science in India and harnessing scientific knowledge
for the cause of humanity and national welfare. The foundation of the Academy, earlier known as the National Institute of Sciences of India (NISI),
was the outcome of joint endeavours of several organizations and individuals and the Indian Science Congress Association(ISCA) playing a leading role
in this regard.
Towards the end of 1930, the then Government of India wrote to various state (then provincial) Governments, Scientific Departments, Learned Societies,
Universities and the Indian Science Congress Association seeking their opinion on the desirability of forming a National Research Council which would
adhere to and cooperate with the International Research Council and its affiliated Unions. This period witnessed the visit of Sir Richard Gregor, the
Editor of Nature for discussions with the Editor of Current Science for the promotion of an Indian Academy of Sciences. The proposal was considered by
various eminent scientists whose views regarding the composition and functioning of such a National Council were put up in the form of a resolution to
the ISCA during its Pune Session. A special meeting of ISCA was held in Mumbai in January 1934 to consider the scheme. In response to the plea made by
the President of the ISCA, Professor M N Saha in support of an Indian Academy of Sciences on the model of the Royal Society, London, the General
Committee of the ISCA unanimously accepted the proposal for the formation of a national scientific society. The Committee formed an 'Academy
Committee', which was requested to submit a detailed report for consideration at the next session of the ISCA.
The information is therefore very accurate. These are some of the highest institutes and organizations of science and technology, not only in India
and Asia, but the world.
The US equivalent is NASA, MIT, AIAA, DARPA, USAF, (Aeronautics and Astronautics), USS(Steel) Boeing, Lokeed Martin. Would you accept this?
...and they're still unknown to conventional science. Discoveries of this type are usually announced in the mechanics/science/engineering
trade and hobbyist papers. Haven't you ever wondered why Popular Mechanics isn't featuring them?
Please define conventional? If you mean mainstream and ISRO, IIT, NML, INSA, BSC, ADA and the Indian government are not, then I don't know what is.
And Popular Mechanics is a western science and technology magazine.
Here is that report from the Indian scientist on the materials again:
Tamogarbha loha: Already produced in the laboratory, light in weight, black in color, found to be resistant to acids. Displayed high level of
absorption for laser light (from red Ruby laser - as observed by Prof. Robert Anderson of San Jose State University during his visit to India in
December 1991). Some chemical and other properties found to be unique-patentable new alloy. This alloy was used in 'Tamo Yantra' in the Vimana
Shastra for the purposes of absorption of light escaping from a photochemical reaction which resulted in absorption of light, thereby generating
Pancha Loha (not the Panchaloha for making idols): A copper alloy, which is highly malleable and also highly corrosion resistant to moisture and salt
(NaCl) water. Already produced and characterized to possess golden yellow Color (Hema Varnam). High machinability and on microstructure analysis found
to be single-phase alloy with high malleability ('mridulam') and not found listed in ASM Reference (1988).
Arama Tamra: A copper alloy zinc, lead and iron of light absorption. Already produced and possesses golden yellow to reddish tinge. Brittle, light and
hard, on microstructure analysis found to be two-phase alloy. Very hard, Young's modulus 16.9 (described in Sanskrit text as 'Dridham') not listed
in ASM Reference (1988).
I can provide you with a whole list of elements that, when you add up their atomic numbers, you get the atomic number of gold. This means
nothing. Furthermore, you can't slam the two atoms together and produce gold.
It means a lot. It means that the context of a physical technological process is specified and it involved the base metals, whose atomic number when
combined, gives gold and it is told in a casual manner. And furthermore "can't" does not exist in my dictionary(not even the actual dictionary) All
of the atomic elements are composed of the same atoms that all others are composed of. When the basic building blocks of matter aggregate(nuclei) by
fusion they form other elements.
There is some research being done at a high level in US on transmutation and the role of nanotechnology in it.
[edit on 12-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]