Mysteries surrounding the downfall of Indus Valley Civilizations

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posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 10:54 PM
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I am pretty sure everyone here knows about the Indus Valley Civilization, considered to be one of the four ancient civilizations in the world.

According to Wikipedia, they lived about 2500 B.C. but suddenly the entire civilization died off.

There are many guesses on this. Most controversial being Aryan invaders theory.

What do you think killed them off so suddenly?

And I also remember reading somewhere that archeologists found the skeletons in the city of Harappa and some others to be positioned in a wierd manner. Anyone else remember reading about this?

Surf

[edit on 2/9/2005 by surfup]




posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 12:03 AM
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On the aryan invasion, I had started a thread about this a while ago here it is for reference.


What do you think killed them off so suddenly?

I am not so sure that they were infact destroyed suddenly. There is no evidence of invasion and destruction, except perhaps some indications of fire, but natural fires surely occured too. There does seem to be a common tendency amoung ancient, really ancient cities(like this one and say, the mayan, or bronze age greece) to become completely abandoned. It happens are varying rates tho, not all are 'sudden'.

A quick google for burial orientation harappan yeilds


www.andaman.org...
The seven skeletons of the Neolithic Phase II were excavated from different burials of varying depths, ranging from 3 feet 9 inches ( 1.15 m) to 10 feet 7 inches (3.22 m) from the surface. Four were in primary articulation and three in secondary articulation or partially articulated, nearly in NE-SW orientation,


and


www.tribuneindia.com...
The site was thought to be a Harappan cemetery where 9 burial pits were unearthed[...] eight pits had one skeleton each interned in them. The ninth pit contained two skeletons. Except one, all other skeletons were laid in the north-south orientation with their heads pointing towards the North.

So looks like roughly N-s.

Sometimes, amoung suposed indo-europeans, bodies are buried lying on their back with legs flexed and the knees. I don't recall the orientation tho.

As far as what caused their downfall, its very sketchy. All that can be said is that they cities were ultimately emptied. But there aren't a new type of burials intruding amoung an older type, there aren't entirely new artifact types found, and we can't even say if a new language was introduced. Usually the langauge of harappa is thought to be something like an elamo-dravidian language, and perhaps this makes sense since the southern indians speak dravidian langauges, like malayali, whereas norhtern indians speek indo-european languages. Of course, that arrangement need not require invasion.

IF it was invasion, then how'd it procede? Screaming ravenous horse riding hordes comming out of the north, layin waste everywhere they went and making themselves kings? Were entire populations moved into the north? Or was there realtively peaceful intermixing? Or very small numbers of an 'aryan' invader elite that ruled over the natives?

Genetically, I have read that northern indians are most closely related to central asian populations (that is, outside of other indians). ANd of course the northern indians have a restrictive caste system, while the 'desis' and what not retain a more tribal association. But, is it cultural innovation, or foreign invasion? Another genetic study that I saw compared the genetics (i think it might've been Y chrosome genetics) of caste groups and tribal groups. They found that, despite supposedly long standing separations, that there was lots of intermixing. Is that something an invading elite that brings a caste system to seperate people would do? Certainly could occur in it tho.

So there's definitely lots of work to do on it. Unfortunately, archaeology is extremely controversial in india, with lots of 'culturally loaded' things going on. Some say the brits, for example, completely invented the Aryan invasion myth to justify their own invasion and rule. Others will not recognize any outside influence. The whole thing is highly politicized at times, at least thats the impression i get, what with trying to decide whether to wipe out a muslim mosque becaue it might be on 'Ram's Temple', or even the location of the ancient 'sarasvati' river (or something like that no, the homeland of Ram?) being disputed. The controversy is not dissimilar to the degree of the passions involved with Kennewick man in the US.



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
So looks like roughly N-s.

Sometimes, amoung suposed indo-europeans, bodies are buried lying on their back with legs flexed and the knees. I don't recall the orientation tho.


Thank you very much for the link, helped me a lot.


Originally posted by surfup I also remember reading somewhere that archeologists found the skeletons in the city of Harappa and some others to be positioned in a wierd manner. Anyone else remember reading about this?


I was talking about skeletons lying on the streets. I am not sure if this is a urban legend or not, but the bodies were supposed to be just lying there in some wierd way.

Surf



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 05:34 AM
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The Aryan invasion theory IS completely a myth. There is no evidence to support this at all and a lot of evidence to debunk it. However, there is some indication that the ancient Indus civilization was an empire that reached beyond the Indian subcontinent. This does not suggest the empire did not begin in the subcontinent.

As to what happened to this civilization. It simply just disappeared. My theory is it was the fatality of an ancient nuclear war. The radioactive skeletons at Harappa, found scattered about on streets, some still holding hands, the radiation poisoning and birth deformaties of villagers there, the vitrified walls of the ancient cities, and the Mahabharata wars being the base of it. As well as the absolute proof of the Indus civilization being a highly advanced modern culture.

If one only considers the historical and archaeological evidence, then we get a civilization that is highly intellectual, has modern sanitation and irrigation systems; industrial level metal work of zink, iron, steel; planned cities; understanding of newtonian mechanics, gravitation, relativity, electrochemical reactions, atoms and subatomic physics; Advanced engineering capabilities, including acoustics and meteorology and complex mathematical geometry; free hospitals, where advanced surgical procedures are carried out under anasthetics with 125 surgical instruments and also psychiatry, psychotherapy and medicine. Simply on the available historical and archaelogical evidence we get a culture that is thousands of years advanced of modern western civilization.

And once we factor in the Sanskrit texts, especially the Vyaamanika Shastra, we get a futuristic civilization with knowledge of solar-electric propulsion(ion drives) , nuclear propulsion, holograms, antigravity, cloaking, space travel, advanced alloys, artificial intelligence, transmutation of metals, directed energy weapons, genetic engineering, asexual cloning.

Now, consider this. As the archaeological evidence shows that the Indus civilization was thousands of years advanced of the current western civilization. Then it would only make sense that it would have been more advanced than us today. The evidence certainly shows that.

To sum it up: I think they blew themselves up with weapons with such destructive power that they could sink land masses, and as this highly advanced knowledge was not the domain of regular society, it was lost.

[edit on 11-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
The Aryan invasion theory IS completely a myth. There is no evidence to support this at all and a lot of evidence to debunk it. However, there is some indication that the ancient Indus civilization was an empire that reached beyond the Indian subcontinent.


Is it possible that Aryans began to coexist with the Indus people? After all Indus was heavily dependent on trade and trade only, so it is possible that aryans first came in as a trading ally and then began coexisting.


As to what happened to this civilization. It simply just disappeared. My theory is it was the fatality of an ancient nuclear war. The radioactive skeletons at Harappa, found scattered about on streets, some still holding hands, the radiation poisoning and birth deformaties of villagers there, the vitrified walls of the ancient cities, and the Mahabharata wars being the base of it. As well as the absolute proof of the Indus civilization being a highly advanced modern culture.


Yes that was the story that I was talking about. Skeletons found scattered around the streets some still holding hands.

By the way Mahabhartha is supposed to have happened after the Indus Valley Civilizations. I think.


industrial level metal work of zink, iron, steel; planned cities; understanding of newtonian mechanics, gravitation, relativity, electrochemical reactions, atoms and subatomic physics


Wait I thought Indus Valley is supposed to be in the bronze age. How did zink, iron and steel come into the bronze age? And wasn't there supposed to be evidence for advanced dentristy work too? I heard they found couple of skeletons with fillings or something like that.


To sum it up: I think they blew themselves up with weapons with such destructive power that they could sink land masses, and as this highly advanced knowledge was not the domain of regular society, it was lost.


Is it possible that some aliens were invovled in the destruction? Just wondering.

And one more. Do you have any idea what the Indus Valley people called themselves? I haven't been able to find any source that gave be a specific name, all I found was a Mesopotamian version of the Indus people.

Thanks a lot.

Surf

[edit on 2/11/2005 by surfup]



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 08:10 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
And once we factor in the Sanskrit texts, especially the Vyaamanika Shastra, we get a futuristic civilization with knowledge of solar-electric propulsion(ion drives) , nuclear propulsion, holograms, antigravity, cloaking, space travel, advanced alloys, artificial intelligence, transmutation of metals, directed energy weapons, genetic engineering, asexual cloning.
[edit on 11-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]


If any of those existed wouldn't there be a shred of remaining evidence? Space travel is very sophisticated don't you think a race this intelligent would leave equipment in space or on other terrestrial planets? I can't read Sanskrit nor do I have the time to fully dedicate my time to researching translations so excuse my ignorance if there is direct evidence im missing.



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 08:17 PM
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Originally posted by Linux
If any of those existed wouldn't there be a shred of remaining evidence? Space travel is very sophisticated don't you think a race this intelligent would leave equipment in space or on other terrestrial planets? I can't read Sanskrit nor do I have the time to fully dedicate my time to researching translations so excuse my ignorance if there is direct evidence im missing.


Here is the explanation I got from another thread.

"WW 1 and 2 happened less than a century ago, are there any evidence left of the wars?"

I suppose it is the same thing with this too, after these many years those things would have rotten down or stolen.

Surf



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 08:22 PM
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Originally posted by surfup

"WW 1 and 2 happened less than a century ago, are there any evidence left of the wars?"


Millions of pieces of evidence.

Even today they are digging up minefields, dead bodies, weapons and equipment, etc.

Not to mention the ruins under many Europe cities



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
Millions of pieces of evidence.

Even today they are digging up minefields, dead bodies, weapons and equipment, etc.

Not to mention the ruins under many Europe cities


As I said before that wasn't my explanation, it was someone else's. So I don't know how that person would respond to that.

And what digging up are you talking about? Sure there are some expeditions to find the MIAs, but nothing in large scale especially since it has been over 50 years since that happened and people just want to forget it.

Surf



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 09:30 PM
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Yah im with Amuk on that one. I know its not your explanation surfup but we still find evidence from many cultures, why is this the exception? Perhaps there are artifacts but nothing in comparison to todays technology just scriptures leftover from many years ago.



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 10:49 PM
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Exact dates and the expanse of this civilization are difficult to determine due to all the conflicting data and the fact that this civilization vanished. All we have is the archeaological evidence, historical and literary evidence from which we can piece together the history of the Indus civilization.

When I refer to the Indus civilization. I am referring to the vedic civilization or the civilization of the Aryans. There is no evidence to suggest that the Aryans were not indigenous to the Indian subcontinent.There are no records of the Aryans refering to themselves as immigrants. In fact Max Mullers dating has already been debunked. He dated the mythical Aryan invasion of Ancient India in 1500BC, I don't know where he got this from, but it sounds like he just pulled it out of thin air. Now, according to archeaological evidence through remote sensing the river saraswati which was is referred to in the Rig Veda which dried up in 1800BC was flowing from about 3000BC to 2000BC. So at the very least the indus civilization is 4000-5000 years old. The earliest Harappa civilization is dated to 6000 years old.

According to the astronomical dating of the Mahabharata from the astronomical information in the Mahabharata. The Mahabharata occurred some 3200BC. The Ramayana herefore occurred in 5000BC.

Recent scientific dating evidence on the submerged city of Dwarka and skeletons and artifacts has pushed the Indian civilizations date even further to 7000BC, meaning the Ramayana happened in 9000BC just at the end of the last ice age. However, if we use the theological dates of Ramayana it puts it at a million years. However, the theological date does mention what is called a deva yuga of 12,000 years and is used to measure cycles of time in terms of human years(deva yuga * 360) it may not actually apply literally. So that means Maharishi Bhadwaja lived merely a thousand years(as opposed to the near million figure earlier!)

The earliest evidence of the production of steel and zinc in India is 1000BC. The production of zinc was as early as the Harappans, and the Harappans used zinc and lead in their artifacts to harden it. In the Mahabharata(3000-7000BC) the metals iron, steel, mercury, gold, silver, lead, tin and zinc are mentioned. I have written about this in my other topic. So, what would technically be the stone age, was the modern age for the vedic civilization.

What did they call themselves? The civilization called themselves as Bharatavarsh. However, I wonder just how big Bharatavarsh was. Considering that nearly every Indo-European language and even pre-Mohammed Arabia can be traced to Sanskrit. I think it was like this:

10000BC - Ramayana
7000BC - Mahabharata
3000BC - Late Harappa civilization
1000BC - Vedanta and Hinduism

And civilization became lesser sophisticated from the Ramayana(golden age) this would explain that the Rama civilization was probably destroyed due to the melting of the ice caps. And Mahabharata due to nuclear weapons. The Giza Pyramid were probably built during the time of the Mahabharata. However, if we use the more conservative date for the Mahabharata, then:

6000 BC - Ramayana
3000 BC - Mahabharata
1000BC - Late Harappa
500 BC - Vedanta and Hinduism

I hope this was somewhat helpful.



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 11:27 PM
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If any of those existed wouldn't there be a shred of remaining evidence? Space travel is very sophisticated don't you think a race this intelligent would leave equipment in space or on other terrestrial planets? I can't read Sanskrit nor do I have the time to fully dedicate my time to researching translations so excuse my ignorance if there is direct evidence im missing.


First, I want to ask you. Would you have known that America had attacked Japan with nuclear weapons and vaporized Hiroshima and Nagasaki, assuming you had not known about it and had gone there today on vacaction? This is just 50 years.

There is more than a shred of evidence for this civilization. For more detailed explanations and proofs please see my thread "absolute proof of ancient Indian advanced civilization" I will mention some for your conveniance:

The first modern unmanned flight of an mercury ion engine was in 1895 in Bombay on Chowpathy beach. This was witnesses by a huge crowd of people, including a state judge, the Maharaja of Baroda and Sir and reported by a leading newspaper of the state, kesari. The scientist , Dr Talpade who had developed it had built it following directions in a range of ancient Sanskrit texts on aeronautics and assistance from Sanskrit scholars. It flew to a height of 1500 feet before crashing down. Historian Evan Koshtka accredits Talpade

The mercury ion engine is described clearly in the Samaranga Sutradhara translated by British Indologist William Clarendon:

‘Inside the circular air frame, place the mercury-engine with its solar mercury boiler at the aircraft center. By means of the power latent in the heated mercury which sets the driving whirlwind in motion a man sitting inside may travel a great distance in a most marvellous manner. Four strong mercury containers must be built into the interior structure. When these have been heated by fire through solar or other sources the vimana (aircraft) develops thunder-power through the mercury.

Currently, the ancient Indian sanskrit texts on aeronautics are being studied by the ADA(Aeronautics defence Agency), ISRO(Indian space research organization) and the institutes of science and technology. They have fabricated 4 types of new materials, one which absorbs infrared light and created new electrical devices. A report of these materials and devices are available in my other topic.

In the Srimad Bhagvatam( a sanskrit text) written by the author of the Mahabharata. An analogy is given that says the transformation of a low caste man into a brahman is like transforming bells metal into gold by an alchemical process. Bells metal is an ancient alloy of the base metals of copper and tin that was produced in India. The atomic numbers of copper and tin combined do indeed give gold.

You will find a lot more proofs in the other topic. I can't be bothered to list every single one again!



posted on Feb, 11 2005 @ 11:37 PM
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Originally posted by surfup
And what digging up are you talking about? Sure there are some expeditions to find the MIAs, but nothing in large scale especially since it has been over 50 years since that happened and people just want to forget it.


I am not really talking about hunting MIAs, I am just talking about farmers finding unexploded shells, rifles, helmets, vehicle parts, etc.

Not to mention entire cites built upon the ruins of bombed out cities, even japenese cities which were mostly wood and paper, two of which were nuked.

I dont know jack about ancient India but just thought I would point this out.



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 09:53 AM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
First, I want to ask you. Would you have known that America had attacked Japan with nuclear weapons and vaporized Hiroshima and Nagasaki, assuming you had not known about it and had gone there today on vacaction? This is just 50 years.


That was more directed at the space based technology then a nuclear blast, which im still skeptical of, but can't deny until i've read your other thread. Until i've read your evidence i'm not capable of asking anymore questions, thanks for the interesting tidbit on the mercury ion engine though.



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
First, I want to ask you. Would you have known that America had attacked Japan with nuclear weapons and vaporized Hiroshima and Nagasaki, assuming you had not known about it and had gone there today on vacaction? This is just 50 years.


Heck, yes. It didn't vaporize everything; only things in the immediate blast aea. In the huger area of the shock wave, there was a lot of rubble, objects flung for miles by blast waves, radiation (still in some areas), metal slag, glass slag, changes to the ground. You could also tell by roads that led into the area (and out of the area.) And then there's graveyards full of bodies of the same age that show trauma and radiation damange, and landfills full of garbage that exist and were in existance at the time, and all the underground things (cellars, etc.)

Even if it was all covered with grass and people had moved away, you'd find an enormous number of artifacts. More than you could house in 50 museums the size of the Smithsonian.

You should go on some archaeology digs... you'd quickly find out how much civilizations leave behind; even "vanished" ones.



The first modern unmanned flight of an mercury ion engine was in 1895 in Bombay on Chowpathy beach.....


Actually, there's no real "proof" there. One report, some anecdotes, and an artifact that "conveniently" disappears. And a designer who "studied" a text that didn't exist until 1929.



The mercury ion engine is described clearly in the Samaranga Sutradhara translated by British Indologist William Clarendon:


Actually, it isn't clearly described. You'd find that kind of description in a used car brochure. Heck, you see better descriptions of engines in "Star Trek" literature.


Currently, the ancient Indian sanskrit texts on aeronautics are being studied by the ADA(Aeronautics defence Agency), ISRO(Indian space research organization) and the institutes of science and technology.


That information isn't quite accurate. There are several "agencies" with important sounding names that re "researching" and "studying" these. When I went and located the sites for the "departments" and "agencies" they were all connected to some sort of yogic school.

Now, there's a heck of a lot of difference between a yogic school and a full-blown university.



They have fabricated 4 types of new materials, one which absorbs infrared light and created new electrical devices. A report of these materials and devices are available in my other topic.


...and they're still unknown to conventional science. Discoveries of this type are usually announced in the mechanics/science/engineering trade and hobbyist papers. Haven't you ever wondered why Popular Mechanics isn't featuring them?



The atomic numbers of copper and tin combined do indeed give gold.

I can provide you with a whole list of elements that, when you add up their atomic numbers, you get the atomic number of gold. This means nothing. Furthermore, you can't slam the two atoms together and produce gold.



[edit on 12-2-2005 by Byrd]



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 12:53 PM
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India isn't just some sort of archaeological wasteland where people just "suddenly showed up" and civilizations appeared with amazing technology.

The history and pre-history of India are pretty well documented, and it stretches back far into prehistory.

======== Brief Archaeological Timeline of India =====
* The very oldest traces are 2 million years ago (yes, 2 million. Homo erectus (not sapeins; our forefathers). There are tools, but they're flaked stone and not metal.

* Hand axes develop (and the culture and practice spreads throughout the area) from 500,000 years to 400,000 years ago (notice we still don't have any metal artifacts, etc, etc.... )

* Major toolmaking sites/factories arise 140,000 - 25,000 years ago as the climate changes make India a rich hunting area. These toolmaking sites (well documented) are all for the production of stone tools. No metal. No forges. No vials. No glassworks. No mines. Yes, we do have artifacts other than rocks from these sites. No flying-thingies, not complex city structures. Late in this period, domestication of plants and animals begins.

* 20,000 years ago rock art and other evidence shows the use of bows. At about this same time, a large number of cultures with different survival strategies rise in this large area. Evidence of trade with cultures as far away as Pakistan and the Middle East.

* 10,000 BC - evidence of trade between India, Egypt, and Mesopotamia (this is about the time that people start living in cities in all three areas, though Egypt develops more slowly than Mesopotamia and India for awhile.)

* Pottery develops about 7,000 BC

source: mockingbird.creighton.edu...
========================

Notice that there's contact with other cultures and sharing of ideas and that in NONE of the contacted cultures or in the many sites is there any indication of "advanced technology." Nor are there tales/writings from other cultures about these "advanced technologies" held by India (a favorite trading partner.)

There isn't, and there never has been a shred of evidence for "advanced technology." There's been some fake stuff, and there's been re-interpretation of myths and literature, but there has never been any evidence for the Real Thing.

[edit on 12-2-2005 by Byrd]



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 01:24 PM
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Aright...the Aryans did NOT kill them off, just go to a book store and get this book called Genesis Of The Grail Kings



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 04:04 PM
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> How did zink, iron and steel come into the bronze age?

That the ages are named 'stone age', 'bronze age' and so on does not mean that there was no overlapping. One find bronce while it is still considered stone age and iron while its still bronze age.



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 04:29 PM
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Originally posted by Ghaele
> How did zink, iron and steel come into the bronze age?

That the ages are named 'stone age', 'bronze age' and so on does not mean that there was no overlapping. One find bronce while it is still considered stone age and iron while its still bronze age.


Sorry I meant stone age.

I read in lot of places that there was no iron found in Indus Valley's excavations, none.

Surf



posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 09:54 PM
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Before I answer your questions Byrd.

Let us first define history: History is a chronology of past events, events that are agreed upon by those who write it, by a certain point of view. History is also political. That is that the events that accord with a particular politics. I am sure you have heard of the adage "history is written by the victorious" this basically summarizes the subject for history for us.

So, before you go referring me to what has been recorded by Historians or written in Encylopedia as evidence, please do consider that I don't believe in this institution. A lot of it is full of lies, misinterpretations and misrepresentations. I reserve the right, as an independent thinker, to analyse them myself and arrive at my own interpretations.

In western history(written by western Historians) which is the history we are taught in schools, so are given an incomplete picture of world history. We are taught about Greek mathematicians, scientists, philosophers and their accomplishment. We are taught about Roman engineers and architecture.

Yet it is fact now that the Eastern civilizations were far more advanced. Barely anything is taught about them. Are we taught of ancient Indian atomic theory, mathematics, production of zinc and steel, and the schools of science and logic and medicine and surgery? No, because if we were, it would invalidate the history of the west. It would mean many men and women who have degrees in history have been preserving lies.

In the western capitalist and materialist civilization, the truth is less important than the profits. The many truths that find their own niche in western society as "conspiracy theories or mythology" of extraterrestrials, psychism and alternative science, alternative history and medicine threaten the very structure of western civilization. It undermines the control of the elite. If either of these existed, they wouldn't want you to know.

What does having a degree in history mean today? It means you're indoctrinated. You have been conditioned with thoughts and political facts and methodologies of thinking. You've been taught what is wrong and what is right - you've been taught dogma.

What value is there in history if lies like Aryan invasions fabricated by imperialists are perpetuated by it. If we want to know history, we need to start with a fresh canvas, take a holistic approach(i.e. world history) and anaylse all the evidence objectively. Yes, even mythology is evidence. Modern Indian historians are rediscovering their past. More power to them.


Heck, yes. It didn't vaporize everything; only things in the immediate blast aea. In the huger area of the shock wave, there was a lot of rubble, objects flung for miles by blast waves, radiation (still in some areas), metal slag, glass slag, changes to the ground. You could also tell by roads that led into the area (and out of the area.) And then there's graveyards full of bodies of the same age that show trauma and radiation damange, and landfills full of garbage that exist and were in existance at the time, and all the underground things (cellars, etc.)


No, you wouldn't. I made the proposition that had you not known about the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic blasts, and went there on vacation, would you know? No, you wouldn't have. Yet, you bring up an interesting point. As an archeaologist, however, you would find evidence of blast, vitrified rock, metal, changes to the ground and irradiated corpses and skeletons.

Does that sound like what has been found in Mohenjadaro and Harappa? Vitrified rocks, irridated skeletons scattered about the streets, some holding hands as if a calamity had befallen. As well as the radiation poisoning of the villagers there. This is thousands of years later. If you cannot accept this. Then you most certainly cannot say that you would have known Hiroshima and Nagasaki suffered an atomic blast. For that would be hypocritical, would it not?


Actually, there's no real "proof" there. One report, some anecdotes, and an artifact that "conveniently" disappears. And a designer who "studied" a text that didn't exist until 1929.

Isn't that what history is? Some reports, anecdotes and artifacts? Isn't history largely based on testimony? How can you accept testimony of some, and not of others with the same credentials.

There is only one report of the flight of this ion engine. I wonder if this is because there was only one flight?(wink) Now, it was not as if this was a flight in front of the fellow villagers. It was in front of the Maharaja of Baroda, who was knighted, the state judge and the most credible press. It also recognized by some western Historians and accepted as history by Indian scholars.

The reason this artifact does not exist is because it crashed, remember? And after that funding for the program was stopped by the British government, who were not happy with the implications of an Indian discovering flight, that too from ancient literature.

The equivalent is the President of America, the states supreme court justice and the New York times providing their testimony of an event. Would you accept this?

As for the "texts" the Vyaamanika Shastra was one of many. And, you are misinformed, the texts were documented by Shastri in several note books between 1905 and 1920(source: India ADA) He and Swami Dayanada had given Talpade assistance in designing the craft.


Actually, it isn't clearly described. You'd find that kind of description in a used car brochure. Heck, you see better descriptions of engines in "Star Trek" literature.


Before I answer this, let me remind you that the actual ion engine was made, flown and documented. Now, let us compare the modern Ion engine and the engine described in the Sanskrit text:

‘Inside the circular air frame, place the mercury-engine with its solar mercury boiler at the aircraft center. By means of the power latent in the heated mercury which sets the driving whirlwind in motion a man sitting inside may travel a great distance in a most marvellous manner. Four strong mercury containers must be built into the interior structure. When these have been heated by fire through solar or other sources the vimana (aircraft) develops thunder-power through the mercury."

The power is latent within the Mercury
The mercury-engine is placed inside a circular air frame
It contains four containers/chambers built into the interior structure for the Mercury.
The mercury is then heated by solar rays which develops thunder power(thunder is electricity)
This sets a whirlwind motion and develops thunder power from the latent power in the Mercury(obviously ejected to produce thrust)

Now, the modern Ion engine by NASA:

solar-electric propulsion engine or solar-ion propulsion engine,.
The engine works by bombarding vaporized Mercury(Cesium and Argon are also used) with electrons from solar cells, which ionizes the gases. The Mercury vapor contained in the container is released into the ionization chamber, where it is then bombarded by electrons generated by the solar cells to ionize the gasses which causes it to heat up, which then is accelerated out of the nozzle to achieve thrust.


The power is latent within the Mercury(the ions)
The engine is placed inside the frame of the craft
It contains several chambers/containers built into the interior structure for the Mercury
The Mercury is bombarded electrons, produced from solar rays, which generate electrons that ionises the Mercury vapor and causes it to heat up
This causes the acceleration of hot ionized mercury vapor which is then ejected of out of nozzle to achieve thrust

It is identical and very clearly described. You said there are "better desciptions" of the warp drive engine in Star Trek. Geez, could this be because Star Trek is written by science writers who have degrees in physics?

And are you forgetting this is from a thousands of year old text? Even a few hundred years ago from Da Vinci's theoretical descriptions of flying machines which are recognized as the closest the ancients were to flight were crude, involved primitive materials(sticks and leather) and could not get past the concept of flight past kites. Flight was visualized as people peddling on bikes to operate wings.

Here are some of Vinci's illustrations:





To then get a text that is even ancient by Da Vinci's standards that discusses modern solar electric propulsion and metal aircraft that fly in the air due to thrust produced by an engine, and dismiss it, would be extremely ignorant.

Are you going to deny all of this?


That information isn't quite accurate. There are several "agencies" with important sounding names that re "researching" and "studying" these. When I went and located the sites for the "departments" and "agencies" they were all connected to some sort of yogic school.


I will give you an entire list of the researchers and scientists that are not from "yogic schools"

Dr. K. Ramchand, Director, The Centre for Airborne Studies.
Dr. T.N. Prakash, panel coordinator AR & DB.
Wg.Cdr. A.E. Patrawalla, Honorary Secretary, AeSI, Bangalore.
Dr. P. Ramachandra Rao, Director, NML, Jamshedpur.
Air Cmde. P.S. Subramanian. V.M, Bangalore.
Dr. B.G.Siddarth, Director Birla Science Centre, Hyderabad.
Dr. Maheshwar Sharon, Dept. of Chemistry, IIT, Bombay.
. Dr. K.H. Krishna Murthy, Former Professor of Ayurvedic Medicine, Pondichery Medical College, Bangalore.
GP. CAPT. M. Matheswaran VM. Indian Air Force.
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., Bangalore.
Oriental Research Libraries, Pune and Baroda.
Sri. S. Krishna Murthy, Director, Public Relation, ISRO, Bangalore.
Indian Institute of World Culture, Bangalore.
National Metallurgical Laboratory, Jamshedpur
Birla Science Centre, Hyderabad.
Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay.
Academy of Sanskrit Research in Melkote
Indian Space Research Organization
Hindustan Zink Ltd

Some background on some of the institutes involved:

Birla Science Centre, Hyderabad

THE B.M. Birla Science Centre here has held a special ceremony on Tuesday to mark ten million visitors to the institution that has started in 1985.
The centre has a planetarium, a science museum and a dinosaurium. It is recognised as an institute of higher learning and for research and development.
According to Dr B.G. Sidharth, Director-General of the centre, no less than 20 Nobel Laureates, three Prime Ministers and any number of public dignitaries, Governors, Chief Ministers and Ambassadors have taken part in its multifarious activities.
He says that the B.M. Birla Planetarium is not only the best attended planetarium in the world but also has been acclaimed to be amongst the very best with a better rating than those in Europe, the US, Far East and Soviet Republics. Similarly, the science museum has unique facilities that include a participatory science museum and fine arts section. The dinosaurium, on the other hand, displays a rare fossil of the dinosaur, kotasaurus, belonging to the lower Jurassic age.

Source: www.blonnet.com...

The Indian Space Research Organization:

The Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) was established in 1969 and is currently under the Department of Space. The Chairman of ISRO since 1984, Prof. U. R. Rao, stepped down and was replaced in April, 1994 by Krishnaswamy Kasturirangan, who also carries the titles Secretary of the Department of Space and Chairman of the Space Commission. With headquarters at Bangalore, ISRO now boasts of a workforce of approximately 17,000
The corporate headquarters of the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) is located in Bangalore, but, activities related to satellites, launch vehicles, and applications are carried out at numerous centers throughout the country. The development of the sensors and payloads is the responsibility of ISRO's Satellite Application Center (SAC) in Ahmedabad. ISRO Satellite Center (ISAC) in Bangalore is responsible for the design, development, assembly, and testing of satellites. Vikram Sarabhai Space Center (VSSC), at Tiruvananthapuram, is responsible for launch vehicles. Liquid propulsion modules, including cryogenic engines, are developed at the Liquid Propulsion Systems Center located near Tiruvananthapuram. Satellite launching takes place from Sriharikota, north of Madras, referred to as SHAR. Hassan, near Bangalore, is where the Master Control facilities for satellite station keeping are located. The reception and processing facilities for remote sensing data are available at National Remote Sensing Agency (NRSA), in Hyderabad.

Source: www.fas.org...

The Indian Institutes of Science and Technology

As per a special cover story by Asiaweek in 1999 on the best universities in Asia. The IITS ranked as follows:

4. Indian Institute of Technology, Delhi
5. Indian Institute of Technology, Madras
6. Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay
7. Indian Institute of Technology, Kanpur

Source: www.nriol.com...

National Metallurgical Laboratory, Jamshedpur

The National Metallurgical Laboratory, the third in the Council of Scientific & Industrial Research family of 38 laboratories. The foundation stone of NML was laid on 21.11.46 by the first and only Governor General of independent India, Shri C.Rajagopalachari. The laboratory was formally inaugurated and dedicated to the nation on the 26th of November, 1950 by Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru " in a sprit of hope and I faith in the future". The laboratory formed part of the great plan, which Sir Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar visualised in 1940, for providing India with a network of research institutes capable of taking the country forward in the Science & Technology. The establishment of the laboratory was generously supported, in cash and kind, by the Tata Industries Ltd., Sir Ratan Tata Trust and Sardar Bahadur Sir Inder Singh of Indian Steel and Wire Products (ISWP) Company. Dr. Balraj Nijhawan, the first Indian Director of the laboratory, set the pace for the rapid growth of the laboratory through the establishment of a number of pilot plants and facilities and initiating research programmes which were in line with the Five Years Plans of the young Republic of India. NML has one Centre at Chennai and one field station at Ahmedabad
R&D

Industrial Processes: Mineral Beneficiaiton, Extraction of Metals, Development of Refractories / Ceramics, Process Optimisation and Modelling;
Engineering Materials: Synthesis and Development of Materials, Materials Forming Processes, Materials Characterisation
Resource and Environment Conservation: Waste Utilization, Secondary Metal Processing, Corrosion and Protection, Component Integrity Evaluation (CIEP) / Remaining Life Assessment (RLA), Pollution Control;
Technical Services: Chemical Analysis, Material Characterisation, Testing and Evaluation, Failure Analysis, Engineering Consultancy, Calibration, Standard Reference Materials, Training & Certification, Hall Marking, R & D Management and IP acquisition

Source: www.nmlindia.org...


Indian National Science Academy

Indian National Science Academy plays a crucial role in promoting, recognizing and rewarding excellence. Another important task is to publish journals, organize scientific discussions and bring out proceedings and monographs.
The Academy promotes public awareness and understanding of science. Acting as links between the scientific community and the planners, they advise the governments on critical issues. Importantly they serve as forums for interaction among scientists within and outside the country.
The Indian National Science Academy was established in January 1935 with the object of promoting science in India and harnessing scientific knowledge for the cause of humanity and national welfare. The foundation of the Academy, earlier known as the National Institute of Sciences of India (NISI), was the outcome of joint endeavours of several organizations and individuals and the Indian Science Congress Association(ISCA) playing a leading role in this regard.
Towards the end of 1930, the then Government of India wrote to various state (then provincial) Governments, Scientific Departments, Learned Societies, Universities and the Indian Science Congress Association seeking their opinion on the desirability of forming a National Research Council which would adhere to and cooperate with the International Research Council and its affiliated Unions. This period witnessed the visit of Sir Richard Gregor, the Editor of Nature for discussions with the Editor of Current Science for the promotion of an Indian Academy of Sciences. The proposal was considered by various eminent scientists whose views regarding the composition and functioning of such a National Council were put up in the form of a resolution to the ISCA during its Pune Session. A special meeting of ISCA was held in Mumbai in January 1934 to consider the scheme. In response to the plea made by the President of the ISCA, Professor M N Saha in support of an Indian Academy of Sciences on the model of the Royal Society, London, the General Committee of the ISCA unanimously accepted the proposal for the formation of a national scientific society. The Committee formed an 'Academy Committee', which was requested to submit a detailed report for consideration at the next session of the ISCA.

Source: www.insa.ac.in...

The information is therefore very accurate. These are some of the highest institutes and organizations of science and technology, not only in India and Asia, but the world.

The US equivalent is NASA, MIT, AIAA, DARPA, USAF, (Aeronautics and Astronautics), USS(Steel) Boeing, Lokeed Martin. Would you accept this?


...and they're still unknown to conventional science. Discoveries of this type are usually announced in the mechanics/science/engineering trade and hobbyist papers. Haven't you ever wondered why Popular Mechanics isn't featuring them?


Please define conventional? If you mean mainstream and ISRO, IIT, NML, INSA, BSC, ADA and the Indian government are not, then I don't know what is. And Popular Mechanics is a western science and technology magazine.

Here is that report from the Indian scientist on the materials again:

Tamogarbha loha: Already produced in the laboratory, light in weight, black in color, found to be resistant to acids. Displayed high level of absorption for laser light (from red Ruby laser - as observed by Prof. Robert Anderson of San Jose State University during his visit to India in December 1991). Some chemical and other properties found to be unique-patentable new alloy. This alloy was used in 'Tamo Yantra' in the Vimana Shastra for the purposes of absorption of light escaping from a photochemical reaction which resulted in absorption of light, thereby generating 'darkness'.

Pancha Loha (not the Panchaloha for making idols): A copper alloy, which is highly malleable and also highly corrosion resistant to moisture and salt (NaCl) water. Already produced and characterized to possess golden yellow Color (Hema Varnam). High machinability and on microstructure analysis found to be single-phase alloy with high malleability ('mridulam') and not found listed in ASM Reference (1988).

Arama Tamra: A copper alloy zinc, lead and iron of light absorption. Already produced and possesses golden yellow to reddish tinge. Brittle, light and hard, on microstructure analysis found to be two-phase alloy. Very hard, Young's modulus 16.9 (described in Sanskrit text as 'Dridham') not listed in ASM Reference (1988).


I can provide you with a whole list of elements that, when you add up their atomic numbers, you get the atomic number of gold. This means nothing. Furthermore, you can't slam the two atoms together and produce gold.


It means a lot. It means that the context of a physical technological process is specified and it involved the base metals, whose atomic number when combined, gives gold and it is told in a casual manner. And furthermore "can't" does not exist in my dictionary(not even the actual dictionary) All of the atomic elements are composed of the same atoms that all others are composed of. When the basic building blocks of matter aggregate(nuclei) by fusion they form other elements.

There is some research being done at a high level in US on transmutation and the role of nanotechnology in it.

aaa.nevada.edu/pdffiles/ Microsoft%20PowerPoint%20-%20Harris.pdf

[edit on 12-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]





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