Suffering From An Autoimmune Disease?

Are you suffering from an autoimmune disease? And if so, do you care to know why you're suffering from such an illness?

Science

The immune system nowadays is understood to be a biological model of what the human self is. Let me explain.

Self is essentially a sense of difference and boundary between one thing and another thing. However, for a thing to function as a self, it needs to 'know itself', i.e. be able to distinguish itself from something that isn't self. As Thure von Uexkull, an expert in mind-body medicine writes,

“In summary, we may say that the “totality” of the immune systems “semiotic basic melody” which “tends toward reconstituting itself” consists of three stanzas: the first stanza, in which the pathogen interacts with the microphage and the macrophage exhibits a signal response, is followed by the second stanza, in which the helper cell encodes the signals presented by the macrophage into signs for the antibody producing B lymphocyte. The last stanza is introduced by B lymphocytes (which in the meantime have multiplied) producing antibodies which the macrophages again encode into signs denoting the pathogen. Thus, the process has come full circle.” – Thure Von Uexkull, Endosemiotics, in Essential Readings in Biosemiotics, pg. 298, Springer, 2010

To break this down: the microphage, helper T cells, and B lymphocytes are members of a 3 part process which starts with 1) macrophages signaling the presence of an outside i.e. unknown invader, simply because the invaders chemical signature is unknown, and hence, is 'non-self'. When a 2) T helper cell receives the signal, it mediates the coming together of B lymphocytes so that the B lymphocytes can produce an antibody that neutralizes the 'antigen' - or the protein complex on the bacteria/virus which allows it to get inside other cells. When this happens, 3) macrophages, the big cells which keep watch inside our body, are let loose on the invading cells.

The immune system depicts all the qualities of a coherently operating self by knowing the signature of the many different cells which make up the body.

Even more importantly, the immune system is an example of an autocatalytic process: it is circular, and literally occurs through chemical processes which have a sort of thermodynamic necessity to them. The 'path of least resistance', in terms of biochemistry, necessarily leads to a structural ordering where processes correlate and interweave at near perfect intervals - all of it 'arising' from a basic fractal ordering of energy, now dispered in a wide-spread structure we call a cell, with its billons of chemicals particles generating a mammoth number of events.

In other words, the body is a truly wondrous thing - which has been looked upon in stupid and naïve ways by mainstream medicine. They don't see the hierarchy or the biosemiotics ordering - from bottom up. They don't see, in other words, the causal relationships that exist between cell behavior, and mind behavior, even though such relations are very much real.

Psyche

The Human mind is a very interesting thing. We all have one, and experience ourselves in ways that we all imagine to be unique. Btu what if it wasn't? What if humans were like molecules? Consider the table of elements, and consider how certain interactions between certain molecules always leads to certain results. It's a law of nature, for instance, that under certain sorts of conditions, hydrogen and oxygen will prefer to come together as H2O, because this is the thermodynamically most 'relaxed' state given the conditions which are operating around it.

Human minds are just like this. We evolved in forests in East Africa, where orbital forcing changed East African from a lake-filled region with dense woodland forests to a spare desert that forced new modes of regulating system coherence, and evidently, some creatures did it better than others, with 'ascendance', or increase in neurological complexity, moving lockstep with increased affect regulation in social interactions with others.a

Our minds are ineluctably social, and so, the brains we have are actually structured to be linked at all times with the behavioral cues of the salient objects around us. What is salient to each of us are the experiences we've had from the zygote period in our mothers womb to birth, where only 30% of the brain is developed, to 2 years old, where right-brain growth has encoded the relational norms of the world around it (this means serious closure; i.e. a critical period which can never be undone). Everything you know about yourself is really an interpretation of the patterns laid down in the early years, as astonishing as that may sound, systems scientists have an adage that what happens in the beginning of a systems life has massive effects later on. All systems, in effect, are self-organizing feedback loops, where fractal patterns, or flows, repeat themselves because homeostasis and mental processes are actually, and surprisingly, deeply linked processes.

Diseases

Here's a quick list of correspondences between mental processes and known autoimmune diseases, some of which have been suggested by the Canadian doctor Gabor Mate.

Breast cancer, Uterus cancer, Ovarian cancer, are all endocrine related cancers that have been anatomically linked with the patterns of the nervous system, via the stress-molecules produced by the HPA axis. The psychological process of relevance here is: "pretending nothing is wrong; never standing up for yourself; assuming the blame, or feeling the need to carry the troubles of others". It is, in effect, sort of a self-sabotage, a slightly masochistic pleasure in denying the self good. That is, the breast, uterus, and ovaries, are all archetypal images of goodness (nurturing life). Cancer in the Self, apparently, 'redounds down' into cancer in the body.

Heart disease, Strokes, are associated with an angry, bitter, or resent personality. Pretty self-explanatory (i.e. poor affect regulation)

Fibromyalgia is associated with pushing yourself too far; of thinking you're superhuman, when you aren't i.e. not acknowledging the intrinsic limits that come with a body.

A manipulative and dissociative relation to others is associated with MS, where the brains immune cells attack its own myelin - or the part of the brain allows fast transmission of information (again, archetypally reminiscent of the phenomenon itself; being 'quick' in your external relations, denying how others affect you, is very superficial; surface level; and leads you into acting in ways that harm others - not deliberately, but because you have dissociated yourself from effective self-reflection i.e. from unresolved trauma.

All autoimmune conditions are basically traumatological, which is not surprising. What's surprising, or frustrating, is how trauma edits awareness, and renders the psychology of the thinker who is unaware, into understating the presence of trauma in his functioning. The shame associated with being 'disordered', and not being able, for the most part, to think in coherent ways because your emotions are built around defending against the destruction of your self-esteem, you act in ways, understandably, which help you, but also cause you all sorts of trouble.

Overtime, these correlations will become more explicit, and getting a handle on our health will be more nuanced, with specific genetic alleles associated with specific relational patterns, and their respective associations or probabilities if this behavior becomes a chosen way of being.

Ultimately, what you want to aim for is coherency. Acknowledge what you feel and don't dissociate it. If you feel anger, and are one of those people who don't express it, write it down; or ideally, share your anger with the person who wronged you.

All of these examples have a coherency which is built around one idea: equity between self and other. I am a self, and therefore need to defend myself; at the same time, I realize I am partly created by my relationship with other humans, so I have to care about each human I interact with.

If you can follow these rules, and can respect that they are real, and always there, no matter how much we'd like to think otherwise, threatening the formation of a condition, you will more or less get a strong handle over your physiological health, and so, live happily.

originally posted by: Astrocyte

All autoimmune conditions are basically traumatological, which is not surprising. What's surprising, or frustrating, is how trauma edits awareness, and renders the psychology of the thinker who is unaware, into understating the presence of trauma in his functioning. The shame associated with being 'disordered', and not being able, for the most part, to think in coherent ways because your emotions are built around defending against the destruction of your self-esteem, you act in ways, understandably, which help you, but also cause you all sorts of trouble.

I think your cause and effect might be in the wrong order here.

As a cancer survivor and someone who deals with the physical pain of an auto-immune disorder every day, I can say I was more 'coherent' and cheerful before onset.

Now I'm cynical, bitter, and drink like a fish and never been healthier (according to my doc) if you can believe it.

Bring more evidence and less wordiness and I'll back you up with the mind/ body connection.

a reply to: NarcolepticBuddha


No, isn't infancy before childhood, and before when you experienced yourself as happy?

How did I confuse the ordering of cause and effect? These conditions, in effect, derive mostly from early-life traumatological injuries.

a reply to: NarcolepticBuddha


I'm sorry - life is strange.

You can begin in a bad state, recover (or believe you recovered) yet may have left many wounds unfixed (by not being thought about or processed in some emotionally meaningful way), and then, seemingly out of nowhere, you get a disease, it makes you unhappy, cynical, bitter, and causes you to drink, and then you think the world is a senseless place.

Truth is, what I've written is basically where science is going. Many already think along the same lines, where relational patterns basically correspond to the organ systems associated with dysfunction; indeed, the physiological organ and the relational pattern have a basic archetypal unity about them.

a reply to: Astrocyte

I want to see data and evidence, not someone who is good with a thesaurus at their keyboard.

I have M.S. It sucks.

My M.S. completely changed my lifestyle... and I believe that I am all the better for it. M.S. has forced me to focus on the little day to day things; routines that most of us take for granted.

Physiologically, the disease can be brutal. Truth be told, I count myself as being lucky for having the relapsing-remitting variety of M.S... things could be worse.

The disease has humbled me. It has forced me to slow down, and look at things in a different perspective. I appreciate every small miracle.

I don't embrace my disease, but I am thankful for the insight that I have gained.

a reply to: Astrocyte

your post was interesting.

I have for years believed the spiritual trickles down to the physical. There is a person I know and have cared about for a long time. The person's inner jaw/teeth are crooked. One side i(the right) is underdeveloped. This person has trouble speaking the truth, esp about himself. Back is hump backed. You could say they have no spine or spine is warped...can't stand up for or accept their self. Also happens they have what is known as a barrel chest...chest is puffed up or ego. The person has has colon cancer with removal of part of the intestine. No guts.

May seem simplistic but think in a way it equates with the op...or maybe it is just me.

a reply to: Astrocyte

I agree with some of your thinking. Life emerged through irreversible processes, we are dissipative structures.

To add—all physiological processes are regulated by the body's homeostatic regulatory system, the endocannabinoid system.

In fact, astrocytes express the CB1 receptor and neuron-astrocyte communication is mediated via the ECS.

If you have autoimmune issues, it is best not to eat foods that increase energy utilization too much or eat foods that build your immune system. Roast, potatoes, and carrots are fine, a good quality hamburger is fine. Avoid some veggies that power up your immune system like the plague. Don't take calcium supplements on a regular basis, they can increase cellular energy and make it worse some times.

a reply to: Astrocyte

Great thread Astro!

I think most of this is spot on, but not without exceptions. And sometimes errors can occur durring cell division that seem quite random and inexplicable.

No doubt we have plenty more to learn. Some of the pieces are fitting together nicely.

a reply to: madmac5150

I have a friend who has fibro myalga, he wishes he has MS because it is at least recognized as a debilitating disease, he has very similar issues and pains that you would have with MS but he gets very little help.

While a connection may exist subconsciously, all disease does not stem from pshchological issues. Ive had many frames of mind across my lifetime, and the one thing that has been constant is autoimmune disease.

Still though, a nice thread and something to consider.

originally posted by: pirhanna
While a connection may exist subconsciously, all disease does not stem from pshchological issues. Ive had many frames of mind across my lifetime, and the one thing that has been constant is autoimmune disease.

Still though, a nice thread and something to consider.

This is my stance as well.

It's interesting to think about. But it's little more than blaming a person for their illness? What, bad attitude? Bad karma? Sin? Demons?

Come on I thought we were here to deny ignorance, not re-imagine superstitions.

How exactly is ALS caused by psychological extremes...?

You know one moment you're fine then... 6 months down the line you can no longer use your own body, speak, eat, or breath without an external respirator doing it for you.

How...?

a reply to: Astrocyte

Sorry to burst your bubble but actually the thinking is the other way around. There are studies that have proven a link between mood and body condition but it's the body that affects the mind rather than the mind affecting the body.

You might also want to look into water fasting while you're at it. Many cases of letting the body heal itself and improving the mind by doing so there.

The more you know

Dead

fibromyalgia is bogus if you have a autoimmune disorder.
what you really have is Small Fiber Polyneuropathy caused by the autoimmune disorder.

www.medscape.com...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

if a doctor has told you that you have fibromyalgia and you have not had a punch biopsy to diagnose small fiber neuropathy and have a autoimmune disorder you have been to a quack doctor who is to lazy to DX you right.

I have castlemans and sarcoidosis two rare autoimmune disorders and i have in years of searching only found 6 other people that have had both. and i believe the sarcoidosis is what caused my small fiber polyneuropathy.

a reply to: ANNED

fibromyalgia is bogus if you have a autoimmune disorder.

There are lots of doctors with lots of different opinions and they vary even more when in different countries.

a reply to: Astrocyte

What are your medical, practical and professional qualifications regarding your thread topic here?

Education, career and practical and professional experience, please.

a reply to: Astrocyte

Basically you're saying that MS is caused by a psychological trauma or some kind of imbalance between the Yin and the Yang... The connection between mind and body exist, but is evidenced mostly by the placebo effect. Powerfull enough to require nulling using double blind trial.

Your approach to the matter seem a lot geared toward New Age, isn't it?

As for the immune system, like the body in overall, it is a machine, a very complex one but still a machine. And up to a certain point, can be considered fully deterministic.