How can Abortion be considered the mother's choice, who asks the baby's opinion?

Originally posted by deesw
Rant,
for all I know I probably work with you. There are a small few people that I work with and hang out with that think as you do. We get along great, very good friends, as long as we don't discuss religion or politics, so we don't and have no problems. Now I understand why we do not discuss these things in the work place. However this is what this site is for so I guess we'll keep going.

Nothing personal ever. Best place to "let the crazy out" is ATS.

It's what I do.

No prob, no prob at all.

I'm 100% for abortions. My wife and I would never have one but I'm all for them for anybody who does. I don't care how much you think that it's wrong cause it is none of your business at all. Thats the problem with our world....nobody minds their own damn business. It's not up to you or your supposed god or gods. This is why nobody can get along. All kinds of people are good people regardless of what kind of things they do in their own personal business.

All kinds of people are good people regardless of what kind of things they do in their own personal business.

Have to disagree with ya there. Good people do good things, that's why they are good. Bad people do bad things, that's why they are bad. Good people can certainly make mistakes though.

You're right....I should have phrased that differently but you get my meaning. Good people can do things that other good people disagree with but it still makes them good people.

You're right....I should have phrased that differently but you get my meaning. Good people can do things that other good people disagree with but it still makes them good people

I agree with you for the most part. The only thing is that when good people continue to do the same bad things over and over again, then how good are they now. But I do see your point.

Originally posted by I See You
I don't care how much you think that it's wrong cause it is none of your business at all. That’s the problem with our world....nobody minds their own damn business.

So is the robbery taking place right now in someone's convenience store. So is the murder taking place now in an alley somewhere. So is the initiation some 13-year-old is going through right now into the gang that he thinks has all the answers to the need his shattered family can't fulfill. It's none of my business. I'm not a cop, and I'm not the victim. I think Douglass Adams hit the nail on the head with his "SEP field" concept. As long as someone thinks it's someone else's problem, they can completely ignore it.

Well, it's none of my business, yet I still have a problem with rape, murder, gangs, mugging, theft, vandalism, torture, and domestic abuse. This argument you're presenting is the same that was presented to me by a fellah I had hauled off to jail. He would beat his wife and kid all up and down his apartment, and I could hear it living below. When I would hear it, I would call the cops. The kindly chap who lived above me came over one day and, in rather hostile tones, explained to me that it was his business, not my own, and I should worry more about my own business and stop bothering with his.

I will not sit idly by while there is an injustice going on that I have any kind of power to prevent. In the case of abortion, it is simply education, my vote, and letters to congress. It is my business because I'm making it my business.

Just one quick question for ya, I See You: Would you, if granted superpowers of the Marvel sort, use that power granted you to work for justice, or would you continue to mind your own business, ignoring the gift you were given?

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manner of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee. - John donne

[edit on 8-15-2005 by junglejake]

Abortion-Well in my opinion its murder because ur killing another human being.

Originally posted by RANT
"let the crazy out"

So what are you tryin' to say...

Punk




But to the topic, I don't see it as any more reasonable to think life begins at birth than at conception really. This whole thing is a gray area.

Although I am sick of many Pro-Life people and their general ignorance or lack of caring about hardship, pregnancy, logic, reading, etc. There are many good ones though, not fitting the statement you would like them to say.

I think demonizing them all as authoritarian bigots filled with nothing but a willness to win despite the right thing is sadly misguilded. On a side note though, I would like to say that the conservative basis is shifting from the Constitution to more of a battle stance taking any popular influence (i.e. Christians), although that is not meanspirited more often than not, simply strategy in my mind.

Oddly, many of us believe what we do because we love, rather than hate. That was the whole point of it, but it has been spoiled as many things do when touched by human hands.

In any case, I'd like to see some reasonable debate come out of this.

I'm still willing if anyone wants to pick a reasonable conservative's brain for a bit.

[edit on 15-8-2005 by KrazyJethro]

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
In any case, I'd like to see some reasonable debate come out of this.

I'm still willing if anyone wants to pick a reasonable conservative's brain for a bit.

I'm all for reasonable debate.

I think it comes down to the fact that we really cannot say when life begins. Each person has their own opinion. Some think it's conception, some think it's a heartbeat, some think it's brain-function, some think it's viability. So to have a body of government decide on something so morally personal doesn't make sense to me.

Also, if you take a step back from outlawing abortion and see the medical issue of pregnancy, you have no rights to even know if a woman is pregnant, so how could you have the right to dictate what she does about it?

And for those who don't think abortion is 'right' fortunately, no one forces anyone to have an abortion.

There is no hard and fast answer whether it's 'right or wrong'. Everyone has a different opinion and so far, the medical privacy mentioned above is what's keeping it legal.

your question:Just one quick question for ya, I See You: Would you, if granted superpowers of the Marvel sort, use that power granted you to work for justice, or would you continue to mind your own business, ignoring the gift you were given?

I would ignore the gift that I was given towards abortion and things similar in respect. I would use it tp prevent murder (not abortion), rape, child abuse etc. It's obvious from my post that you tissied over that rape,child abuse, murder, or whatever should not be ignored. You know exactly what I meant by saying mind your own business and it was not for these things but that is you as far as I can tell from your posts.

And this is why we have problems:It is my business because I'm making it my business. Go figure



[edit on 16-8-2005 by I See You]

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
Although I am sick of many Pro-Life people and their general ignorance or lack of caring about hardship, pregnancy, logic, reading, etc. There are many good ones though, not fitting the statement you would like them to say.

I think demonizing them all as authoritarian bigots filled with nothing but a willness to win despite the right thing is sadly misguilded.

Given that you obviously understand where I'm coming from based on your acknowledgement of all those pro-life tactics...

I think the majority are the ones sadly misguided for even engaging in debates with exactly the kind of pro-life people you're complaining about on their terms. I simply turn the ship into the storm. I'm not going to defend myself to false framing as to why I love murder, hate Jesus or still beat my wife.

The minute they start that #, I want to know why they hate freedom, America and the Constitution. Demonization or education? I don't discount many have pure motives or love in their heart, but I'm sick of media and politicians alike being so understanding, compassionate and nice to people that hate me and paint two-thirds of America as incompassionate "culture of death" murderers... # them. No really. # them all.

Of course, you're always reasonable KJ and a pleasure, but I'm tired of being reasonable with people that simply aren't. I will not be wedged, manipulated or nagged out of my rights by the loudest gadfly in the room. I will be a bug zapper. And I will be louder. Misguided is trying to reason with flies.

I See You, I ask that you understand this issue from my perspective. I'm not asking that you agree with me, just understand. I believe abortion is murder, and I have the power to change it under the government in which I live. I'm asking, even demanding, that my nation conform to my morality because my morality is in line with my nations. Murder is against the law, and in many states even dictates murder as the punishment (Yep, against capitol punishment, too). Now if I precieve the killing of fetuses, which do display signs of life and thought, as murder, how would I be more in the wrong, by letting it happen or going against it despite the majority of loud voices saying I'm wrong? If I may be trite, did Spiderman quit because the newspaper painted him as a villian, or did he continue to do what he believed was right despite the public's anger towards him?

I believe abortion is murder. I also believe I have a moral obligation to use whatever power I have to prevent my government from sanctioning murder. That goes for abortion and capitol punishment, and both of them have very interesting parallels. Capitol punishment originally started out as a deterant. Now, if you read/listen/see many Republican's views on it, it is not as a deterant, but to save the nation money on prision space. Abortion, originally, was sold to the supreme court as saving lives of non-existant women who had back alley abortions and died as a result. I find it very interesting that figures tracking the deaths and mutilations of mothers who have had abortions stopped after 1979. Now, it is a method of convienance. If your child is inconvienant, abort it, it's just a glob of goo, not a living thing. The partial birth abortion process is far more dangerous than it should be, because the doctor turns the baby around before inducing premature birth. Why? Because mothers freak out when they hear their child crying just before a spike is thrust into its head and its brains are sucked out. Not a living thing? Bulls***.

Rant: I hear you, and thank you for the compliments. Oddly, I post a lot at Billoreilly.com and am labeled a liberal constantly for simply calling people on the manner in which they push their agenda or the boiled down half truths they use (i.e. "Why can't liberals ever answer a question with a straight answer" which is only one example of post titles).

While I am against government involvement in our lives, and believe it is the state's right and responsibility to govern in most areas, I will say that it is still reasonable to argue for my side.

For instance, I believe life begins at conception although one in three actually attach and grow. I think it should be understandable to everyone, that if you do believe it to be at conception, than the current practice is something very wrong and a huge mistake.

I also believe it is our right to continue to work for those things not specifically designated in the Constitution that are aligned with our beliefs.

Would one be a responsible citizen, should they NOT address a serious grievance with the law or practice? I don't think so.

I think abortion is in the same vein as rape, murder, incest, etc, although for some it is more difficult to remove the distinction between the activity and the people, considering it is legal practice.

But ask yourself; if you thought it was that way, wouldn't you try to stop it?

I think so, and it really doesn't have much to do with religion although I am a Christian. That never really enters into things because I also believe it is the governments job to protect all life as much as possible.

Oh, abortion is a choice...but some choices are wrong. Making something an "option" does not legitimize it.

I have the choice whether or not to steal something...but it doesn't make stealing right, and there are penalties.

There are two legitimate choices for a pregnant woman. Raise the baby or adopt out. Once conception occurs there IS a baby, like it or not, and it's wrong to kill that child--period.

Originally posted by Amethyst
Oh, abortion is a choice...but some choices are wrong. Making something an "option" does not legitimize it.

Under the law, the choices are not "wrong". In this context, "wrong" is nothing more than a moral judgement, and one which obviously isn't shared by everyone. It's legal to have a termination; the labelling of "right" or "wrong" doesn't make it illegal, and in fact if something is made a legal option, that does actually legitimize it.

I have the choice whether or not to steal something...but it doesn't make stealing right, and there are penalties.

Stealing is against the law.

Abortion is not.

Your analogy doesn't seem to fit?

There are two legitimate choices for a pregnant woman. Raise the baby or adopt out. Once conception occurs there IS a baby, like it or not, and it's wrong to kill that child--period.

That's your opinion - it's not the law. You use the term "baby", when others would use "embryo" and/or "fetus" - you're using an emotional, moral application which doesn't have any bearing on the law.

And that's the way it should remain.

(fwiw, I'm not a supporter of abortion as such; I hate that it's done, I hate that it's sometimes used inappropriately, and I hate that it's even necessary. But I'm far more afraid of the government taking away the rights of someone else, simply based on a religious conviction)



[edit on 9-9-2005 by Tinkleflower]

That's your opinion - it's not the law. You use the term "baby", when others would use "embryo" and/or "fetus" - you're using an emotional, moral application which doesn't have any bearing on the law.

Dude, ya gots some jacked up morals there. You seem to believe abortion is right, homoness is right, corporal punishment is wrong, religion is wrong. There is just no discussing things with a person like you. People like you are the reason that our country is really starting to suck. You can't say anything about anyone without someone wanting to sue someone cause they got their widdle feewins hurt. "Political correctness" sux. People like you just refuse to take responsibility for your own actions. Grow up tinkle

Originally posted by deesw
Dude, ya gots some jacked up morals there. You seem to believe abortion is right, homoness is right, corporal punishment is wrong, religion is wrong.

Ok, you might have one and a half out of four right. I hate abortion - but I'd rather the religious right didn't try to trample over what is already provided for by law, in an attempt to further their agenda. "Homoness"?! Well, though I laughed at your choice of terminology, you're right. I don't think it's wrong. Corporal punishment? Do you mean capital punishment?

I have no problem with religion, deesw. I just have a problem with the US government using religion to trample on the rights of others. It's not a difficult premise

There is just no discussing things with a person like you.

Translation:

"You keep saying things to disagree with me, and I'm fedup with it"

Fair enough.

People like you are the reason that our country is really starting to suck..... Grow up tinkle

?!

I'd rather hoped you could discuss this without resorting to insults again.



Obviously, what I've said seems to really be hitting the mark, doesn't it?

Are you afraid of people asserting their rights?

No where in the bible does it say a fetus is a human. In fact it says it isn't! It says a human isn't human until it can breath on it's own outside of the mother! So they have no opnion to ask since according to the bible they aren't human.

No where in the bible does it say a fetus is a human. In fact it says it isn't! It says a human isn't human until it can breath on it's own outside of the mother! So they have no opnion to ask since according to the bible they aren't human.

Show me in a Bible where it says a fetus isn't human.