How can Abortion be considered the mother's choice, who asks the baby's opinion?

Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by RANT
Your ilk are bad news for the right to privacy. Period.

Because I think abortion is wrong? That's an interesting "difinitive" statement.

No. Because you want to ban it, and are seemingly willing to trample the Constitution and right's of Americans to do so. That is a definitive statement actually. Most facts are.

Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by RANT
You can't win. Freedom already has.

Thanks for the tip, but rather than relying on your prophesy, I'm going to hope to justice, instead.

Justice in America does not come from thumbing one's nose at laws and wiping your feet with the Consitution. But uh, whatever dude. Good luck with your revolution.

Originally posted by RANT
No. Because you want to ban it, and are seemingly willing to trample the Constitution and right's of Americans to do so. That is a definitive statement actually. Most facts are.

And if we agreed on your interpretation of the Constitution, you would be ablsoutly right. However, we do not. I disagree that abortion is protected by the constitution, I believe it is protected by a poor court decision not based on constitutional law but the whims of the judges sitting in the case. So it is a difinitive fact, assuming your interpretation is right and the only possible interpretation of the Constitution. The fact that we have 9 supreme court justices, though, shows that the government recognizes there are multiple ways to interpret the Constitution. What makes you the end all be all authority on constitutional interpretation?

Originally posted by junglejake
What makes you the end all be all authority on constitutional interpretation?

It's just fun to argue like a right winger every once in a while.

Originally posted by RANT

Originally posted by junglejake
What makes you the end all be all authority on constitutional interpretation?

It's just fun to argue like a right winger every once in a while.

But the difference is...We're right

I would just like to to interject that as wonderfully high and mighty some here sound talking about the wholesale murder of human life by the "abortionists" there is no evidence to back up the assertation that abortion even is murder So far the opinion of scientific community is still out on whether or not a fetus can be considered an independant human life form and not just a part of the mothers body.

You still have to prove that abortion is even murder let alone that its not protected under the right to privacy. So far all you have to back your assertations up are your opinions which fall rather short of scientific proof.

So, because science can't determine if a fetus is sentient and not simply an extension of the woman's body, we should just ignore the issue until those who are against abortion can prove it?

Let's apply that to another model, shall we? Use science to prove that I exist. If (when) you can't, does that make my murder acceptable? I think, therefore I believe that I am, but you don't know I think, you simply see words appear on the screen coming from something labeled as junglejake. However, if you can prove, scientifically, that I do, in fact, exist, then this arguement falls apart. I don't think you, or anyone, can do it.

Um I'm pretty sure I can prove scientifically that you exist unless of course your getting all metaphysical on me (all reality is an illusion type stuff) in which case this a conversation better suited to be entertained by stoners and philosophers then by scientists and judges.

I can prove that the words being generated on my screen are being created by a person (specifically you) by tracing your ISP to an address then engaging in observation of that location until I catch you in the act of posting on ATS thereby proving your posts are the result of human interference and not just some ghost in the machine. I can prove you specifically exist by observing and quantifying your affects on your surrounding environment (submerging you in water and notating the amount of water you displace, measuring your mass and the affect of said mass on your surroundings, measuring the exchange of gases that are the byproduct of your existence etc.) much the same way we can prove the existence of distant planets by observing the gravitic affects they have on their environment. Everything about your existence is scientifically provable.

Now does any of that make sense at all or did I miss your point entirely?

Originally posted by boogyman
Now does any of that make sense at all or did I miss your point entirely?

I think you missed the point entirely by even responding to that nonsense.

A Christian using existential metaphysical gibberish to absurdly argue you can't prove he exists (but can't murder him anyway because he does indeed exist) so that you presumably have to accept the transferred absurdity that things HE can't prove exist (like a supposedly sentitent, self supportive zygote with rights) can't be "murdered" is frankly just disingenuous straw grasping bunk.

Going back to something Jake was moaning off about before, yes, maybe Christian Dominionists should just sit in the corner and STFU. Or rather, we (the overwhelming majority of Americans) need to quit giving them a place a the table in falsely framed "fair & balanced" debates to even entertain their nonsense.

If they could just be honest (for a change) the discussion would be about 5 minutes MAX.

Just say it. It won't kill you.

We the Christian Dominionists don't give a # about America. We don't care about freedom. We hate the Constitution. We hate melting pots. We hate diversity. We hate science. We hate education. We don't care what you want. We only care what we want. And that's to spread our narrow interpretation of the gospel of Jesus Christ in a political context of authoritative dominion over Americans as subjects.

I mean Pat Robertson pretty much says that everyday, and he's still rich. But he'll never be President and there's a good reason for that. We (speaking on behalf of the overwhelming majorty) would just as soon you go to hell as send us there in a handbasket.

So howl at the moon all you like, but again... you can't win. The GOP is even is selling your interests out as fast as they can cash your donation checks on the bare bones fundamentals like stem cells and teaching "Intelligent Design." And it seems like every time you think you have a radical right wing extremist nominated to the bench for life, they go all moderate on you too (just like the politicians). Perhaps that has something to do with the fact NOBODY TAKES YOU SERIOUSLY once the checks are cashed and after the votes are in. I mean the fundie freaks once all a titter over the Roberts SCOTUS nominee as a Godsend (because he once defended an abortion clinic bomber) are freaking out now that he once "aided and abetted" gay rights in another case.

Sorry, but in a world of compromise and shades of gray, your dogmatic authoritarian thinking can't win. Why would you think it even could? Does the Bible mention something about taking over America and the Kingdom of Heaven being on Earth and everyone suddenly living as Christians or is the world supposed to be taken over by sin first out of free will? Come on, get with the program. Help a brother out. Jesus needs a new pair of walking shoes. Let the sin in. Witness and preach all you like (as this IS America), but stop trying to legislate your morality.

RANT, I don't know what sex you are or how old you are or your marital status and I'm married and all, but... Will You Marry Me?

I wonder why the Christians don't set about to prove that a zygote is 'life' instead of a mass of cells much like a tumor... Instead of force-feeding the issue of Murdering Babies! why not prove what they're saying is true and legislate that sucker?

They're never going to convince the other side of their position. Taunting us and calling names isn't going to do the trick, I'm afraid. Guilt just doesn't work when the party you're giulting thinks you're living in a dream world.

[edit on 12-8-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
RANT, I don't know what sex you are or how old you are or your marital status and I'm married and all, but... Will You Marry Me?

As is the polite custom among my people when responding to all internet based marriage proposals of indeterminate origin, gender and legal validity... I accept.

Now, get in line.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
They're never going to convince the other side of their position. Taunting us and calling names isn't going to do the trick, I'm afraid.

That's true, and for the most part I am a pro-life guy who has serious distain for the methods and message of the Pro-Life groups, especially Christian ones.

We have a belief which is really as speculative as any other, but if you hold that belief then the act is aborant and seriously disterbing, to me at least.

While it's important not to judge the actions of Americans doing something that is legal at the moment, it is the laws we need to fight, not people.

In any case, I have very serious doubts that your side will change our minds by claiming we want to reverse civil rights, subjegate women, etc (not a claim against you in particular, just speaking generally).

I hope more reasonable debate can happen, but I doubt it.

You still have to prove that abortion is even murder let alone that its not protected under the right to privacy. So far all you have to back your assertations up are your opinions which fall rather short of scientific proof

You people seem to worship science like I worship God. That is a very scary thought.
Science is a very arrogant practice. "If I can't see it or touch it or smell it, then it must not be because I can't prove it. Dude, there are just some things you feel and sense. But if it helps you sleep better at night to not think of a human baby as a human baby, then whatever.

I don’t worship anything. ’You people’ seem to worship fantasies. You seem to want a government run, not by the Constitution and law of the land, but by the 'righteous' precepts of the pious neo-conservative church. And that is a scary thought!

Religion is a very arrogant practice. "There is only one God for all people and even if you don’t believe in him, he’s your God, too and you’re wrong.” ‘Dude’, there are just some things that don’t make any logical sense. But if it helps you sleep better at night to think that God will reward you for judging all the people you don’t agree with as murderers from your high horse, then whatever.

(I normally wouldn't talk like that, but do you know how you sound? Are you aware that you sound like a judgmental little snot? Do you realize that you haven't given one reasonable argument of any kind, no facts, no reason, no basis, just a bunch of emotional sensationalism?

You lay out your opinion as if we should just accept it and then when we don't, you attack us personally? What did you hope to discover or share or discuss when you started this thread? Did you want to have a discussion or did you just want to rag on the murderers?)

Originally posted by deesw
it is not the governments responsibility to control our childrens decisions, to pass out condoms, or birth control. You talk about educating people, educate the parents. It is our responsibility to teach our children right and wrong not the schools, not the government.

So, I assume it's not the school's or government's responsibility to teach abstinance either, then, right? Or any other morality lessons or beliefs or opinions? Like creation?

I say make abortion legal,,,, just make it illegal for anyone to perform one.

What? That doesn't make any sense, sorry.

My God man, do you people not have hearts.
...
There is a life in a woman when she gets pregnant.

It's not that we don't have hearts, some people just disagree that pregnancy=life. Who can prove that the cell formation is a 'baby'? It's just what you think. It's not fact, it's just a belief, an opinion, an idea, not Truth.

If you are a self proclaimed worshiper of science, then ask a doctor. There has never been one documented case where murdering a child would save the life of the mother.

That’s BS! You don't know what you're talking about. I have personal experience, as in my own 2-person relationship. We had to remove the fetus or it would have killed the mother. Ever heard of an ectopic pregnancy? Every single one is an abortion because it threatens the mother's life.

As far as my parent’s having an abortion, if they had, I’d never know, now would I? I may have been born to another person or not at all, in which case, I wouldn’t care! That argument, like some of your others, doesn't make any sense. You think I'd be sitting somewhere in a corner feeling unloved because my parents aborted me? Please!


[edit on 12-8-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

That’s BS! You don't know what you're talking about. I have personal experience, as in my own 2-person relationship. We had to remove the fetus or it would have killed the mother. Ever heard of an ectopic pregnancy? Every single one is an abortion because it threatens the mother's life.

Sorry, I don't buy that one. There are too many doctors that have come out and said that killing a fetus will not save the mother. I don't buy it at all.
None of your biased science worshiping BS will ever change that.

Did you want to have a discussion or did you just want to rag on the murderers?)

I've tried to have a discussion. There's just no point to this arguement anymore. You people have your opinions and I have mine. Yours is based on nothing at all, mine is based on faith, something you seem to know nothing about. You obviously cannot preach science to a man of God, and you can't teach God to a man of science so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by deesw
Sorry, I don't buy that one. There are too many doctors that have come out and said that killing a fetus will not save the mother. I don't buy it at all.
None of your biased science worshiping BS will ever change that.

You don't believe me when I say I have personal experience? You think I'm lying?

Do you know what an ectopic pregnancy is? It's where the fertilized egg attaches somewhere other than the inside the uterus. If the fetus is allowed to grow, it can kill the mother.

This happeded to us. It was in the fallopian tube and if it burst the tube (which it would have) it could have killed the mother. We were devastated, and you say I'm lying?

Ectopic Pregnancy

The most feared complication of an ectopic pregnancy is internal bleeding, causing pelvic and abdominal pain, shock, and even death.
...
Some ectopic pregnancies will resolve on their own without the need for any intervention, while others will need urgent surgery due to life-threatening bleeding.

How common is it?

In the UK ectopics happen in about 0.25-1% of all pregnancies. It is, however, getting more common. In Finland, the number of ectopics has tripled between 1966 and 1985 and in the US there was a four-fold rise between 1970 and 1983.

Women's Health

You have shown me how uneducated and ignorant you are about pregnancy, and that your agenda of demonizing people who disagree with you is far more important than understanding the truth. You only believe what you want to believe regardless of the facts of the matter.

In addition, you have accused me of lying about a very painful part of my life. You are mean. I don't see any indication of the Christianity you wear on your sleeve like a medal.

Very sorry for your loss Benevolent.

I knew someone would respond personally before too long to that dangerous and in-compassionate bit of ignorance.

The saddest thing is that those falsely claiming others "worship science" obviously worship ignorance in some cases or at best believe everything spread in e-mail spam or passed around as urban legends to suit their narrow agendas. Not sure where in the Bible it says to be dumb as bricks and as uninformed as possible before forming strongly held beliefs, but ah well.

Regardless of whether or not one believes in an Intelligent Designer, it can't be denied our plumbing is a mess down there. Things happen. And women don't get invasive surgery (or hysterectomies for that matter) for fun.

Some edited bit of nonsense is undoubtedly being spread in pro-life circles that some "doctor" somewhere said no abortion ever saved a life, but I'm sure his qualified statement was more along the lines of no elective abortion ever saved a life. Well duh. That's a tautology.

The fact is before the knowledge (and right) to abort an ectopic pregnancy existed, 50% of all women with one died.

What is an ectopic pregnancy?

An ectopic pregnancy is a condition where a fertilized egg settles and grows in any location other than the inner lining of the uterus. The vast majority of ectopic pregnancies occur in the fallopian tube (95%), however, they can occur in other locations, such as the ovary, cervix, and abdominal cavity. An ectopic pregnancy occurs in about 1 in 60 pregnancies. The major health risk of this condition is internal bleeding. Before the 19th century, mortality from ectopic pregnancies exceeded 50%. By the end of the 19th century, the mortality rate dropped to 5% because of surgical intervention. With current advances in early detection, the mortality rate has improved to less than 5 in 10,000. The survival rate from ectopic pregnancies is improving even though the incidence of ectopic pregnancies is also increasing. The major reason for a poor outcome is failure to seek early medical attention.

That's equivalent to about 1 in 120 women that ever got pregnant (ectopic or not), dying from it.

Now it's a fraction of a fraction of that. I don't know. Some people. :shk:

No matter what you've been told, the dark ages weren't the good old days some think they were.

[edit on 13-8-2005 by RANT]

Rant,
for all I know I probably work with you. There are a small few people that I work with and hang out with that think as you do. We get along great, very good friends, as long as we don't discuss religion or politics, so we don't and have no problems. Now I understand why we do not discuss these things in the work place. However this is what this site is for so I guess we'll keep going.

Benevolent,
I offended you, and for that I'm sorry. I did not intend to call you a lier. I didn't get me point across properly. I meant that I do not trust the doctors prognosis. I am sorry for your personal loss. I myself had a loss like this. The OBGYN acted like the whole thing was just routine. I asked how he could be so hard and he replied that his job got a whole lot easier as soon as he stopped thinking of the baby as a human life. He was so cold. My wife was in her late 6th month when we lost the baby and he acted like it was nothing. Saying that your doctor was right, and there is that fraction of mothers that could be saved, how then do you feel about abortion in other cases?