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How can Abortion be considered the mother's choice, who asks the baby's opinion?

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posted on Feb, 12 2005 @ 08:01 PM
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Originally posted by deesw
I think you should leave Christians out of it, this is not just a Christian thing, it's a humanity thing. Aren't ya glad that your parents decided not to abort you?

Its also a humanity thing to deal with quality of life. Having millions of extra unwanted children whom might even go starving as brimstone pointed out is hardly a life anybody would want to live if shown thats all they would get. Would you want to be born to know that you would be suffering horribly throughout the majority of that lifetime?




posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 07:48 AM
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Originally posted by brimstone735
.

Oh, and yes, I'm glad my parents didn't abort me. Your parents on the other hand, remains to be seen.

Now that was totally uncalled for, wrong, and not the way you argue in a debate! Did you run out of intelligent words? Is that the way you feel about someone that doesn't agree with your opinion!? Sad!

[edit on 2/13/2005 by LadyV]



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 08:15 AM
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Having millions of extra unwanted children whom might even go starving as brimstone pointed out is hardly a life anybody would want to live if shown thats all they would get. Would you want to be born to know that you would be suffering horribly throughout the majority of that lifetime?


Then millions of people ought to not be having sex then if they can not deal with the outcome. They can always say no or use birth control methods.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 08:17 AM
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Oh, and yes, I'm glad my parents didn't abort me. Your parents on the other hand, remains to be seen


Ya took a cheap shot there. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 10:40 AM
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BEFORE THIS THREAD TURNS REALLY UGLY. I have edited out the harsh and uncalled for comment on the previous page by brimstone735.

Please, this has been agood debate thus far. Let's keep it that way.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by LadyV
Now that was totally uncalled for, wrong, and not the way you argue in a debate! Did you run out of intelligent words? Is that the way you feel about someone that doesn't agree with your opinion!? Sad!
[edit on 2/13/2005 by LadyV]


I'm not going to apologize. If somebody is crass enough to involve my family in this "debate", then they opened the door for whatever response they get from me. In this case, it was a real softball pitch for an offensive punchline. And, while I agree with Observer about "the things I think, and should not say", that doesn't mean the intent was incorrect.

I'm not going to score points by involving your family or kids, and if I did, I would expect the full fury and tumult of the heavens.

Now, all that being said, can you really call this a debate? I mean is anyone going to change their mind? It's nearly impossible to debate with somebody whose Invisible Man in the Sky thinks it's murder, and those who support it murderers by default. There's no leeway there.

Do not pass go. Do not collect 200 dollars.

So, while Christian paranoia may classify that as persecution, I consider it mocking. And, while you may think it's sad, I think it's brutally honest.

Perhaps, too brutally honest, I'll give you that.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 08:40 PM
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brimstone,,, ya gots some serious personal issues. I'll forget the personal slam against me for now.

I think my opinion on the subject is clear so I'll leave the floor open for everyone else.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 08:43 PM
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Originally posted by brimstone735
somebody whose Invisible Man in the Sky thinks it's murder, and those who support it murderers by default.

Not everyone is against abortion because of Christian views, I'm pagan....you too need to deny ignorance...



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 09:29 PM
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Originally posted by LadyV

Not everyone is against abortion because of Christian views, I'm pagan....you too need to deny ignorance...


Yeah, kinda picked up on that. You see, I was talking about the other poster, hence, the reason why I referenced Christianity in the first place.

I guess you need to deny ignorance.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by deesw
brimstone,,, ya gots some serious personal issues. I'll forget the personal slam against me for now.


Well, I certainly feel better now. It was touch and go for a while, but now that you've forgetten that personal slam against you, for now, I can sleep at night again. Eating is a whole different story, although they tell me I'll be back on solids again in a week. Is it okay if I retain my U.S. Citizinship? Or should I flee to the Dark Continent in shame?

As for personal problems, I have an irrational fear of brass bands and the Samba, but I'm usually okay, unless I go to Rio. Otherwise, I usually amuse myself with my rugged good looks, my charming personality, and I'm the Chinese Grand Master of Ping Pong.

Now what I'm wondering is how exactly you plan on asking the Baby's opinion? Survey? Poll? Phone questionnaire? Morse code?



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 10:05 PM
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Ya know brimstone....you have some sort of chip on your shoulder over something......did you have a bad day? I mean, damn, your rude, snotty, condescending...what's your problem? Nothing here has warranted such actions by you...it's a debate forum....is this the way you act, when confronted with opposing views? WTF!



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 10:31 PM
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LadyV

Nice witness there!

many people like myself in the Prolife movement understand exactly what you mention. I put my money where my mouth is. Much of the money i give is to help young women like yourself. We council these women and tell them that no sin is too great...that Jesus loves you..and would have died just for you...he paid for that sin...so give it to him. I sin everyday. My sins are no greater or lesser that any others. I am just grateful for His sacrifice. People who give to LFL know that their money goes to provide healing not accusations as the media claims. Provide a home for an unwed mother so she has an alternative. Who knows maybe that child will be another Newton or just a dumb redneck like me.



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by LadyV
Ya know brimstone....you have some sort of chip on your shoulder over something......did you have a bad day? I mean, damn, your rude, snotty, condescending...what's your problem? Nothing here has warranted such actions by you...it's a debate forum....is this the way you act, when confronted with opposing views? WTF!


Is it Tuesday already?

You forgot charming and mirthful, but I digress. I just really like getting under people's skin. I love irritating.

However, if you want to know what my problem is, we have certain rights in this country. And, without fail, some people will come along and presume to make decisions in other people's lives. It's question of consent, a woman's choice to serve as a vessel for another.

Some women do not want to serve as this vessel, for whatever PERSONAL reasons they may have. It's nobody's damn business. Yet, if you had your way, they would not even be given the choice. Instead, they're told to defy the net result of several million years of evolved instincts to procreate.

Your pro-life stance eventually results in the over population of the country and tens of millions of children starving, or worse, growing up in households where they are both unwanted and unloved, because the parents never wanted said responsibility in the first place. Not to mention the fact that it's nearly 18 years before any of them actually start paying taxes, and you have a nearly insurmountable financial burden to overcome. We're a consumer based society now, we don't have the jobs out there for them.

Rampant unemployment leads to rampant crime. Rampant crime leads to the breakdown of social order. Then all hell breaks lose. People start rioting over fresh food. Countries go to war over water.

I live in big boy land. And big boy land says that sometimes difficult decisions have to be made. We don't have the money. We don't have the space. We simply don't have the resources. Because, if you take the net number of abortions since Roe was passed, you'd have 45 million extra people milling about, with an extra million more every single year after. We can't support them, and it would plunge the United States into nothing less than third world status.

Spirituality is luxury when coupled with the survival of the species.

[edit on 14-2-2005 by brimstone735]



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 12:21 AM
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Originally posted by observer

Originally posted by deesw
Rant,,, it is not the governments responsibility to control our childrens decisions, to pass out condoms, or birth control. You talk about educating people, educate the parents. It is our responsibility to teach our children right and wrong not the schools, not the government. True though they mimic what they see everywhere. Anti-abortion should be tought at home. I say make abortion legal,,,, just make it illegal for anyone to perform one.


You just backed yourself into an argumental corner. You say it it is not the job of the state to control our children's decisions, yet you want the state to remove choice from those same people.. Pick a side, you are either for freedom from government interference or you aren't.


Are we at a restaurant???? Cause somebody just got served!



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 12:30 AM
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This has been a rather dull debate for the following reasons:

For all of the religious dogma spouted out NONE of you have answered any of the points RANT made in his previous statements. :shk: no denials, no facts, nothing. Are you conceding the point with your silence?

Having been pro choice certainly all of my adult life, and having been a clinic escort at planned parenthood, and having faced the violent pro life protesters head on, I am amazed that once you take away thier religious arguments, and that is not too hard to do as evidenced by this and other threads, they simply are like actors without a script. Befuddled and lost, they fall back on the same dogma and rhetoric that they have been brainwashed by. Its kind of like light and roaches scurry away to the dark lest ye be contaminated by the facts


One other point to ponder. Which side has committed acts of terrorism and murder? By that definition, Operation Rescue is a terrorist organization. Funny, the "Pro Life" crowd has participated and actively sanctioned these crimes :shk:



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 07:01 AM
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Having been pro choice certainly all of my adult life, and having been a clinic escort at planned parenthood, and having faced the violent pro life protesters head on, I am amazed that once you take away thier religious arguments, and that is not too hard to do as evidenced by this and other threads, they simply are like actors without a script. Befuddled and lost, they fall back on the same dogma and rhetoric that they have been brainwashed by. Its kind of like light and roaches scurry away to the dark lest ye be contaminated by the facts


Why does everyone keep trying to turn this into something Christian? I am a Christian, as evident in numerous other threads. I love my God and will proclaim always, but I started this thread and it is not a Christian only topic. My God man, do you people not have hearts. Life is in check on this planet. There ar plenty of diseases and accidents and criminals murdering every day to keep this population under control without us murdering our children. There is a life in a woman when she gets pregnant. If she does not want to get pregnant she should not have sex, or she or her partner should use birth control. There is also such a thing as ADOPTION. People who have much love to give and need an outlet for that love.
I am not like an actor without a script. I, without quoting the Bible have gotten my point across very well I believe. If you are a self proclaimed worshiper of science, then ask a doctor. There has never been one documented case where murdering a child would save the life of the mother.



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 07:09 AM
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unfortunately deesw that is not true.
In 03 my wife was rushed to the emergency room where we were informed she had what is sometmes known as a fallopian pregnancy.
It is a situation where the fertilised egg, rather than dropping down the fallopian tubes into the womb, lodges inside the fallopian tubes. By the time she was diagnosed the fetus had ruptured her fallopian tube and caused severe internal bleeding.
We had no choice but to have it surgically removed, there was no way to save its lfe unfortunately.
My wife barey survived.
Yet despite the fact that it was necessary, and the fact that there were no other options, we both feel deep remorse and most likely always will.
Having been forced to have an abortion,(we were not given a choice in the matter as it was an emergency operation and there was no alternative) I simply can not understand how anyone can support abortion. Had there been any chance of saving that childs life we would have taken it. We would have spent any amount of money, taken any risks necessary to be able to hold that child in our arms today.
Alas gods will was other.
However t think that someone would voluntarily kill a child for any lesser reason is so abhorrant to me I can not accept it.



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 10:21 PM
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To the girl that may be thinking about such a painful choice:

Unfortunately all these selfish individuals, who have love only for themselves are poorly educated and lack any common sense. Anyone who has studied the abortion movement knows that it started with Margaret Sanger, mother of Planned Parenthood. For those few self righteous feeble minded dupes of the Democratic party that can read, they will find in Mrs Sangar's book "the Epic of Civilization" published by the American Eugenics Society 1923, of which Sangar was a member, the real reason behind abortion. Yes it is a convenient fix for a desperate girl whose world is spinning out of control. Like all selfish people taking the easy way out it is an option. Yes, it is her body with which she made the choice to spread her legs for similar selfish boys like those above. She is free to take her own life but not that of another human. That choice comes with a steep price despite the fact it is legal. I know it is a billion dollar industry dealing in human body parts Plan Parenthood profits from. Much like the butchers they are, they do provide jobs for their communities. If selling human flesh carved of sentient humans who feel every slice is your idea of humanity then you share the same fascists beliefs as Himmler. If on the other hand you realize that yes it is your body but there are things you are not supposed to do with your body such as illegal drugs or shoving large sharp objects up your rectal cavity, then you have some common sense that obviously those above lack. A child of two has a much more profound effect on a young mother's body than does a unborn child. The stress of getting up at night and working your tail off to support that little child while the pig you slept with is bopping your sister has a profound effect on your physical and emotional health. By the reasoning of those double digit IQ Dear Abby's above, you should be able to personally carve that two year old child up as well. Face it these guys just don't want to pay child support or provide the care a child needs from a father. They would rather play Doom 3, smoke bongs and masturbate to Japanese animay(sp) until their mommy throws their thirty year old butts out to get a job. Being a mother is a gift and a blessing. At the time it may not seem so, but you all have the talents needed to take care of that child with help. We are out there girls putting our money where are loud mouths are. That child will love you and will give you the real love you could not get from the loser your were fooled to let in your bed. Five years after their birth as the child is blowing out those candles, you will see what those above want to steal from you. My job may end tomorrow. I do not have the slightest idea of what the future will bring but I do know this, my Lord provides all. So you can listen to all those fools above psuedo-intellectual diatribe, or rely on faith. Here is truth for he who has ears: "Jesus saves, abortion condemns." It may be legal, but the consequences of your actions are still real. If you are someone who has made that poor choice and suffering because of it (most do) I will be glad to get hold of some people from the Prolife movement who would never condemn you but only love you and cry with you. They will ask nothing in return from you. It is their calling to help you heal. They do not get one dime for it. And they do not lay around burning holes in their mothers couch with seeds. They truly serve.

s sssssssserved!

PS. To any of you children above who want to play, be forwarned. I flush more brain cells down the toilet daily than any of you where born with. I defer to statistics and the bell curve for my assuption here.

Repent kiddies before you take anymore headshots and can not!

(or at least wear a helmet)



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 10:31 PM
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Originally posted by deesw
Why does everyone keep trying to turn this into something Christian?


Because most of the groups that activly lobby, protest, and commit violence are fundemental christian groups. Ralph Reed is a case in point.

I again ask, why have none of you answered or attempted to counter Rant's statments? The Handbook of Dogmatic Statements does not have an index or what????



posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 08:30 AM
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I would like someone to answer this for me.
For all of the holier than thou sentiment espoused on this thread by our pious sinless friends about the ills of abortion and the perversion of those who disagree with them no one has yet come up with a solution to alleviate the need for abortion.
If you want abortions to stop you have to have a legitmate plan as to how YOU will help those who decide not to have an abortion.
Your anger is deep and your hatred of opposing viewpoints is obvious, but I ask you What do you do?
You argue that all abortion in every situation should be banned. OK fine, come up with a solution to the problem. Saying "stop having sex" is not a solution. Teens WILL have sex, they did under the rule of the Puritans even for all their righteous pietyand they will under the rule of the new Purtians of modern society.
Then you might say "if you have sex then use contraception." OK fine, but it seems the abortion foes in this thread also are against teaching about contraception. How about teaching about smart choices, teach that abstinance is the safest and best form of birth control and unwanted pregnancy, but also teach that should you chose to have sex how to protect yourself.
How are you part of the solution if all you do is cast aspersions and anger rhetoric?


[edit on 15-2-2005 by observer]




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