Theosophy was OBSESSED with the 'Super Man', and if you want to defend it, and say it isn't racist ideology, thats fine by me.

I think the theory is only a symptom of their sick Elitist minds, that think some people just HAVE to be ruled over, told what to believe, and given a purpose in life by them.

You might say Hitler had no Elite connections, you might be right, as he was only a figurehead of the Elite, you need only look to see where the European Elite sent THEIR CHILDREN to school. Yes, thats right, Nazi Youth Schools.

Originally posted by akilles
NEWS FLASH: The inner circle of the Nazi Party (the higher ups) were into the Occult!

Masonic Light is only defending his own occultic ass by denying it.

Of course I deny it, as would anyone who has studied history. the occult organizations were the first thing that the Nazis attacked after coming to power, even before attacking the Jewish and Communist organizations.

And I love how you said I was following Nazi conspiracy theory, thats great, especially when you didn't give one valid example.

I have previously given many examples, and started a thread several months ago on the Nazism and conspiracy theory. Use your search function.

Originally posted by Nygdan
You don't think that the weirdness going on with Himmler and the later stages of the SS demonstrate that there was an interest in the occult with members of the nazi party? Or that the 'pan-germanic' revivial was, in a sense, occultic (as long as one considers 'pagan' equivalent to occult')?

I do not consider paganism itself to be occultic. Some paganism can be classified as occultic, but so can some monotheism. By "occult" I refer to what Plato describes in his metaphysics as "knowledge of the Good", which is found in investigating the mysteries of Nature. This entails the practice of the highest virtue and the search for true wisdom.

Those on such a path I would call "occultists" (regardless if their religion is paganistic or monotheistic), because they have sought the meaning that Nature hides from our senses. Because groups like the Nazis were the polar opposite of virtue and wisdom, they are also the polar opposite of true occultism.

Originally posted by akilles
Theosophy was OBSESSED with the 'Super Man',

They did seem rather concerned with the future evolution of man, yes. And this makes them nazis? No.

I think the theory is only a symptom of their sick Elitist minds, that think some people just HAVE to be ruled over, told what to believe, and given a purpose in life by them.

The theosophic superman, from what i understand, doesn't rule over inferior races, so much as attained superiority via enlightenment (there's something you'd probably consider an illuminati link). Whereas with the nazis it was a breeding/eugenics program, primarily. Keep in mind also that th lower theosophic races were freaks with backwards feet or hobgolbin living as a horde in lemuria and the like, actual 'sub-humans' that they invented, not actual things that existed. It not 'racist' for 'man' to rule over, effectively, animals, especialyl since these theosophic imaginings were explicitly created as being 'inferior'. IE they only existed in theosophy, and they only existed to be inferior and ruled.

You might say Hitler had no Elite connections, you might be right, as he was only a figurehead of the Elite

Well, which is it then?

Yes, thats right, Nazi Youth Schools.

What europeans outside of nazi dominion sent their kids to be part of the hitler youth?

masonic light
Because groups like the Nazis were the polar opposite of virtue and wisdom, they are also the polar opposite of true occultism.

But the nazi ideology/theology was all about doing the greatest good, about riding man of the greatest evils and allowing that which is good to come about, especially by investigating and appealing to that which causes good, ie connection to ancestral lands, psychic identity and the values of community? The nazis didn't say, 'lets do evil'. To themselves they were 'do gooders' doing a dirty but good job.
Tho I do wonder at the actual thoughts of hitler himself, in a pagan versus occult settting, as distinguished above, or even at the level of germano-paganism-revival versus regular old christianity. He seems to have promoted what benefited him when it benefited him. I suspect that some people inside the nazi administrative circle were more interested in the occult proper tho.

Masonic Light is PURPOSELY confusing the front of the Nazi Party, with its inner belief system.

Although I do agree that anyone who looks for the hidden in Reality (or Nature as you put it) is an Occultist, I don't pretend to be referring to the Nazi elite in this manner.

It is known he had Jews in his inner circle as well, showing that racist ideology was not as big a part of his PERSONAL beliefs as we are to believe. I'm sure if those Jews accepted Hitler's occultic views regarding the Nazi's place in history they were OK in his book.

Outside of Germany, hmmm... Well, Prince Phillip Mountbatten had a nice upbringing in Nazi Youth schools.

Originally posted by akilles
Masonic Light is PURPOSELY confusing the front of the Nazi Party, with its inner belief system.

I think it is you, my friend, who are confused. Your "inner belief system" of the Nazi Party is fictional. The party was simply was a group of ultra-rightwing, conspiracy theorist, anti-Semitic nutcases. If you're looking for something deeper than that, I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed.

The party's top secret documents were captured and used as evidence at Nuremberg. We also have the testimony of its officials who were captured. We also have all their propaganda on record. It's fairly easy to form an opinion on Nazi ideology, as they were pretty blatant and arrogant about it.

Although I do agree that anyone who looks for the hidden in Reality (or Nature as you put it) is an Occultist, I don't pretend to be referring to the Nazi elite in this manner.

If you mean then that they were influenced by romantic German history and pre-Christian war cults, then I agree. Himmler especially. But you've tried to link Nazism with Theosophy, which just can't be done (and have ignored the fact that the leader of the Theosophical Society in Germany at the time, Karl Germer, was sent to a concentration camp by the Nazis because he was a Theosophist leader).

It is known he had Jews in his inner circle as well,

This is nothing short of a bald-faced lie. Either you actually believe it, and are deceived yourself, or you know better and are trying to deceive us. In any case, it shows that you are not a trustworthy witness.

Yeah, I come online to practice my 'poker face', just practising my bold faced lying, nothing to see here.

I mean, if you don't consider what the Nazis did as HUMAN SACRIFICE then thats fine, you're blurring the lines, not me.

They spilled blood on a massive scale, and you would call it an accident?
Something they were forced into, as opposed to helped along into.

Did you know some of Hitler's close friends were even into 'unholy sex acts', thats not something I care to look further into, but its right down your alley, Brothers.

Originally posted by akilles
Yeah, I come online to practice my 'poker face', just practising my bold faced lying, nothing to see here.

*SNIP*

Did you know some of Hitler's close friends were even into 'unholy sex acts', thats not something I care to look further into, but its right down your alley, Brothers.

hey I know that guy. looks just like a professor i know in Ca.

World War 1 ended on November 11, at 11:00 am.
Accident? No chance. WW1=11

WW2 ended only a few months after America's 32 president died, but when the President was re-born as the Truman of the 33 degree, we got the Trinity Test site, which is located on the 33 degree, would you believe it?

And then the Truman gave the order for human sacrifice by fire, where, on the 33 degree over in Japan, of course. Give me the two cities closest to the sacred parallel (alright, I'm paraphrasing ), and what do you know, its Hiroshima, and just a bit to the west, we have Nagasaki.

After their sacrifice, the nation of Japan was re-born, a 'free' people, having seen their Emperor have to admit he was not more powerful than the White Fire God, I mean Atomic Bomb.

People say 'well, invading Japan blah blah blah', have you forgotten the option of diplomacy that always exists? Not to mention that the Americans need only have offered a demonstration of the device in public (which is supposedly what ALL scientists working on said project wanted, or were led to believe the government wanted as well).

Thats right, war is about money and post war Politics, manipulation of the people in a vulnerable state.

Originally posted by akilles
World War 1 ended on November 11, at 11:00 am.
Accident? No chance. WW1=11

WW2 ended only a few months after America's 32 president died, but when the President was re-born as the Truman of the 33 degree, we got the Trinity Test site, which is located on the 33 degree, would you believe it?

Is there no limit to your ignorance? Why the hell do you think ANY of this means something!?

And then the Truman gave the order for human sacrifice by fire, where, on the 33 degree over in Japan, of course. Give me the two cities closest to the sacred parallel (alright, I'm paraphrasing ), and what do you know, its Hiroshima, and just a bit to the west, we have Nagasaki.

Or maybe it's because they were both important japanese cities with military objectives, but not as culturally important as Tokyo, persay? Nah, that couldn't be it.

People say 'well, invading Japan blah blah blah', have you forgotten the option of diplomacy that always exists? Not to mention that the Americans need only have offered a demonstration of the device in public (which is supposedly what ALL scientists working on said project wanted, or were led to believe the government wanted as well).

Thats right, war is about money and post war Politics, manipulation of the people in a vulnerable state.

THE OPTION OF DIPLOMACY!?!? You really don't have a clue, do you?!? Go take a WW2 history class and then we can continue this conversation.


[edit on 24-2-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by akilles


People say 'well, invading Japan blah blah blah', have you forgotten the option of diplomacy that always exists?

Have you forgotten the Japanese policy of no-surrender?
And do you forget that it took two nuclear weapons to force them to surrender? Even one wasn't enough. Do you also forget that Japan is made up of hundreds of islands? Island hopping hundreds of invasion forces was a massive logistical task that historians universally agree would have made D-Day in Europe look like a day trip to the beach.
Please check your history. Diplomacy was not an option.

[edit on 25-2-2005 by Leveller]

I remember reading somewhere that it was estimated that the casualties avoided by dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki would be as much as equal to all the American Casualties suffered throughout WWII.

Originally posted by masqua
I remember reading somewhere that it was estimated that the casualties avoided by dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki would be as much as equal to all the American Casualties suffered throughout WWII.

I would not doubt that a bit. The Japanese always were ferocious warriors throughout history, and Leveller is correct as usual. To them, surrender was dishonorable, and honor was a big deal to the Japanese.

Originally posted by The Axeman
I would not doubt that a bit. The Japanese always were ferocious warriors throughout history, and Leveller is correct as usual. To them, surrender was dishonorable, and honor was a big deal to the Japanese.

Forget the fact that even the local islanders of places like iwo jima were told to kill as many americans as they could, and then kill themselves to avoid capture. Diplomacy indeed.

Originally posted by akilles

I mean, if you don't consider what the Nazis did as HUMAN SACRIFICE then thats fine, you're blurring the lines, not me.

I consider what the Nazis did to be mass murder, the purpose of which was to eliminate "undesirables." The belief in these "undesirables" came from their Gospel of Conspiracy Theory, i.e., they preached (and eventually even came to believe themselves) in an Illuminati-Jewish-Masonic-Communist plot for world domination. Therefore, by eliminating the Jews, Masons, and Socialists, they would become "saviours".

Nazi Germany was a conspiracy theorist's utopia.

They spilled blood on a massive scale, and you would call it an accident?

Not at all. They knew exactly what they were doing. They were systematic eliminating "otherness", so that all could conform to their "open society" of drones. They were masters of Orwellian doublespeak, just as their anti-Semitic and anti-Masonic heirs are today.

Did you know some of Hitler's close friends were even into 'unholy sex acts',

Although this completely irrelevant to anything...just what exactly is an "unholy sex act"?

Akilles, I think that referring to the Holocaust or the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as "Human sacrifice" is in itself, "blurring the lines".

In Hitler's case, murder was a personal whim. He didn't murder to appease a god but rather to satisfy a hatred.

In the US case, I guess there could be a vague claim as there is a dictionary definition that goes:

Sacrifice - "Forfeiture of something highly valued for the sake of one considered to have a greater value or claim."

In this case it was deemed that allied losses would be outweighed by the use of a nuclear weapon so yes, maybe a sacrifice of Japanese lives was undertaken to save more allied lives. But again this was a pragmatic approach and can in no way be construed as a "human sacifice" in the context of being done to satisfy a god.
Your desire to tie Freemasonry into Nazism, then onto the Holocaust and then the nuclear attacks on Japan, has absolutely no basis in logical thought. You leap from one half assed, half explained theory to another and expect people to believe you?

The logic of your arguments is about as compelling as the one below.

"There was a red bus driving past a green car in a city street. The driver of the bus was wearing a green hat. He must have killed the car driver's mother because the colour of the hat is symbolic".

It bears no logic or reason as an argument. And in your case, half the time the car driver's mother is still alive and well and sitting at home drinking tea!!! But then you'll ignore this fact and go onto how "green hats are occult" when you haven't even proven the discredited first theory. Unfortunately, when you have failed to prove a connection between green hats and the occult, you'll ignore everything and go back to try to connect the bus driver and his hat with Freemasonry. And then to make matters worse, you throw in something totally irrelevant into the argument, as if that will give you more credence, a la your "unholy sex" claim. "The Freemasons are evil and did you know that you might be killed if someone hits you over the head with a hammer?" What are you hoping? That someone will make the automatic assumption that Freemasons use hammers and are therefore murderers? And then you even compound the problem by throwing in an irrelevant statement that would actually destroy your theory "Outside of Germany, hmmm... Well, Prince Phillip Mountbatten had a nice upbringing in Nazi Youth schools." Says who? Prince Phillip was educated at Gordonstoun in England. He also fought against Nazi Germany in the British navy during the Second World War and was actively engaged in the defence of the UK from Nazism!!! Not only can you not prove a link to your theory, but all evidence shows that if you could involve him in your argument, he would prove you wrong!!!

You're just cementing bull# with bull# and throwing more irrelevant bull# into the equation. And that's a major problem with any theory.


I would have thought a good understanding of history and factual evidence would be an absolute necessity for a conspiracy theory. Without that understanding you'll get blown out of the water every time - especially when making claims that are shown to have no accuracy or founding in logic when the big picture is looked at.



[edit on 27-2-2005 by Leveller]

Leveller, I think you can expect Akilles to ignore your above posy, even though you hit it right on the head. Good job.