links between secret societies

Yes, welcome to Axeman's Accidental Universe, where people get power and massive wealth accidentally, THEN become resented, and accused of various falsities.

They were given special privileges, such as not being taxed (A HUGE PRIVILEGE despite Axeman's pleas to ignore it as such), and while men entering the Knights Templar had to forfeit all wealth, and donate their property to the Order, it is ridiculous to think that the wealth was neither used, nor able to be used by any one in the Order (sufficiently high up the ranks, of course).

Right, the Knights Templar were so righteous, the money just sealed it self off with white light, is that what we are to believe next ?

Edit: Special privilege #2 was that they could charge interest on the money you borrowed from them, but charged you a fee to retrieve your money from a castle other than where you deposited it. Only Jews and Knights Templar could 'use' the people back then, as in 'usury', but only a few centuries later the Jewish bankers descendants and the Knights Banker's descendants could meet under the same roof, under Freemasonry of course.

[edit on 14-2-2005 by akilles]

Originally posted by akilles
Yes, welcome to Axeman's Accidental Universe, where people get power and massive wealth accidentally, THEN become resented, and accused of various falsities.

Pretty close, except fot the "accidentally" part. Glad you were paying attention (sort of) for once.

They were given special privileges, such as not being taxed (A HUGE PRIVILEGE despite Axeman's pleas to ignore it as such), and while men entering the Knights Templar had to forfeit all wealth, and donate their property to the Order, it is ridiculous to think that the wealth was neither used, nor able to be used by any one in the Order (sufficiently high up the ranks, of course).

Yes, it was used for food, weapons, horses, you know, things that were necessary to make war against their enemies, paying for labor and materials to build their castles, etc, etc... It's called LOGISTICS.

Right, the Knights Templar were so righteous, the money just sealed it self off with white light, is that what we are to believe next

?

Believe what you like, I'm not trying to convince you. My post was aimed at those that might be interested in the true history of the Templars, not you.

Edit: Special privilege #2 was that they could charge interest on the money you borrowed from them, but charged you a fee to retrieve your money from a castle other than where you deposited it.

That's what interest is, genius.

Only Jews and Knights Templar could 'use' the people back then, as in 'usury', but only a few centuries later the Jewish bankers descendants and the Knights Banker's descendants could meet under the same roof, under Freemasonry of course.

What a huge steaming pile of crap.

[edit on 2/14/05 by The Axeman]

The usual defense is to call someone Anti-Semitic.

Christians were NOT allowed to be allowed in Banking, only the Knights Templar, and those of non-Christian faith were allowed, as the Church FORBID it.

You call that a load of bull? I wonder why, after all you have eaten so much of it already. Maybe your sense of taste has become in-effective?

Interesting that they were the ones who offered security to the people back then, although I tend to think of it in the Logical sense, pay us not to make security a problem. We've got horses, lances, swords, and did I mention we're Knights?

Originally posted by akilles
The usual defense is to call someone Anti-Semitic.

Christians were NOT allowed to be allowed in Banking, only the Knights Templar, and those of non-Christian faith were allowed, as the Church FORBID it.

You call that a load of bull? I wonder why, after all you have eaten so much of it already. Maybe your sense of taste has become in-effective?

Interesting that they were the ones who offered security to the people back then, although I tend to think of it in the Logical sense, pay us not to make security a problem. We've got horses, lances, swords, and did I mention we're Knights?

Originally posted by akilles
Christians were NOT allowed to be allowed in Banking, only the Knights Templar, and those of non-Christian faith were allowed, as the Church FORBID it.

Interesting that they were the ones who offered security to the people back then, although I tend to think of it in the Logical sense, pay us not to make security a problem. We've got horses, lances, swords, and did I mention we're Knights?

Something tells me that you are not qualified to speak on matters relating to a knighthood that existed almost 1000 years ago.

Does one get such qualifications from a Grand Lodge?

Because that would be proof of a link between Freemasonry and the Knights Templar.

And if not, then is any one more qualified to speak about it? No they aren't. The facts about BANKING are just that, facts.

You can explain away their motivations all day long.

Originally posted by akilles
Does one get such qualifications from a Grand Lodge?

Because that would be proof of a link between Freemasonry and the Knights Templar.

And if not, then is any one more qualified to speak about it? No they aren't. The facts about BANKING are just that, facts.

You can explain away their motivations all day long.

[edit on 2/14/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by Leveller
Therefore, logically, Satan can not be a Supreme Being can he?

Wait, so a satanist can't be a freemason? Or, to be explicit, someone who worships the satan of the bible can't be a freemason, because the bible, the context for satan, states that he is not supreme? What if someone worshiped an evil supreme being called satan tho?

Originally posted by Nygdan
What if someone worshiped an evil supreme being called satan tho?

Why would such a person want to be a Freemason to begin with? The very principles of Masonry would be at odds with such a person's beliefs. They are incompatible. The Freemason strives to do good. Someone who worshipped an evil god would have no place in Freemasonry, IMO.

Yes, an Evil person WOULD have a reason to join.

LaVey's Satanism based on Crowley's teachings derived from worldwide occultic texts (and on and on, ad nauseam) states regarding Group Involvement:
"Herd Conformity (a Satanic sin)-- . It's all right to conform to a person's wishes, if it will ultimately be of benefit to you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.

The role of Satan is architect, builder and destroyer."

And so again, we see that Deviant minds are exceedingly attracted to Freemasonry, and that it welcomes them.

Originally posted by akilles
And so again, we see that Deviant minds are exceedingly attracted to Freemasonry, and that it welcomes them.

Nope. You might be attracted but you wouldn't be welcomed.

Satanists or anyone calling themselves by that name, who practice the selfishness found in that belief system would not be welcome and they would find nothing in Freemasonry to keep them there.
Freemasonry is built on what we call the Three Grand Principles. They are Truth, Brotherly Love and Relief (Charity). I think that you'll agree that they aren't exactly a Satanists cup of tea.

As for herd conformity being a Satanic sin? Gosh you do make me laugh sometimes akilles. What do you think that all religion is? Read the Bible and you'll find plenty of herd conformity. Even Satanism is herd conformity - there just aren't as many people in the herd. LaVey was a fraud.

Originally posted by The Axeman
Why would such a person want to be a Freemason to begin with?

I very much doubt a satanist would ever try to join the freemasons, or, at least, a conspiracy minded one might, but then quickly grow bored with it.

The Freemason strives to do good. Someone who worshipped an evil god would have no place in Freemasonry, IMO.

Certainly, but I am just wondering at what level of 'satanism' would a person be kicked out. Someone who worships the satan just as described in the bible, sure, they could be disqualified on the 'supreme being' clause, since the god they follow isn't supreme. But, what of a worshipper of an evil yet supreme god? Then, what about a person who is an actual 'satanist', meaning, of course, not someone who worships anything evil at all (see, satanists, not unlike masons, have been, 'maligned' for a while, largely in part because they call themselves 'satanists', apparently to 'expose people as reactionary and narrow minded', or something).

Or do they merely profess' yes, i beleive in a supreme being, and thats the end? I wonder how a satanist would be perceived if it was later, thru normal conversation, revealed that they were satanists? Or even wiccans? Wiccans are a small group, but I would think some, at least, are masons.

Anyway, if anything, if masons were as evil as akilles is hectoring everyone about, then you'd expect satanists and occult minded wiccans to fill its ranks.

I believe that Satanism of any sort is concentrated on service to oneself - a Satanist cares for his own needs more than he does for others and will only help others if it works in his favour.
As I've already pointed out, this directly contradicts the 3 Grand Principles that Freemasonry is based on.

As to wether or not a Satanist could "sneak" into Freemasonry? This would be difficult. For a start, you can't just walk in - people have to get to know you first. If one displayed the selfishness that is attributed to Satanism one wouldn't be accepted in the first place.

It is possible that one could lie one's way in - Freemasonry can only take a man's word on hs god. But once in, a Satanist would probably find it difficult to meet Freemasonry's natural progression to the view that a man should choose to give of himself willingly. This doesn't just allude to finance but also to time and action also. A truly selfish person just doesn't last long in Freemasonry - Satanist or not.

This in no way means that Freemasons are perfect - we are human after all. Selfishness is a human trait and is hard to shake. But those who fall to it normally do so unwittingly and without recognising it (as the vast majority of people in this world do), whereas a Satanist would recognise selfishness and welcome it.

I'm with you Nygdan, but Leveller just said what I was going to say better than I would have said it.

You mean about them having been formed and guided by shape-shifting reptilians from another dimension?

You mean we're (that is a general we , as in all "secret societies") not?

If one displayed the selfishness that is attributed to Satanism one wouldn't be accepted in the first place.

that would be of course if these attributes as reported are in fact attributes of each and every follower of this belief.

Leveler I think you have misstated a situation. You stated that a follower
of Satanic beliefs could not join because Satan is not a Supreme Being. If
that is the general feeling throughout Masonry then much of the information
that has been published about Masonry and its tolerence must be withdrawn
and the contention that it is a Christian organization and part of a religion must be accepted.

Here is my reasoning.
1 Masonry claims you need only a Belief in a supreme being to qualify.
2 Masonry makes a point of stressing that what being you serve or how you
serve that being ( within the constraints of the law) is up to you and that you will never be asked nor will the subject be discussed.

but , you have just stated that because the Christian brothers do not
think the supreme being of another belief is a supreme being but a seconday
one that person is not eligable for membership.

Given that many, you could almost say most Christians believe that All Dieties
except their own are really Satan in disguise how can you say you welcome
other faiths on the one hand and state flatly that a person who believes
in Satan as a Supreme Being is not welcome?

Originally posted by stalkingwolfbut , you have just stated that because the Christian brothers do not think the supreme being of another belief is a supreme being but a seconday one that person is not eligable for membership.

I think that the implication was 'satan only exists in the judaeo-christian' tradition. In that tradition satan is not supreme, therefore under that context, a satanist is worshipping a powerful being, not a supreme one.

Of course, its perhaps a moot point for me to have brought up, since there are no people who actually do this. There are these hedonistic satanists, who would be allowed in masonry, but would find it pointless, heck, 'sinful' in their hedonistic ethic.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf

Here is my reasoning.
1 Masonry claims you need only a Belief in a supreme being to qualify.
2 Masonry makes a point of stressing that what being you serve or how you serve that being ( within the constraints of the law) is up to you and that you will never be asked nor will the subject be discussed.
but , you have just stated that because the Christian brothers do not think the supreme being of another belief is a supreme being but a seconday one that person is not eligable for membership.

You're misunderstanding something. We're talking about Satanism that is defined from the words of the Bible. Satan is not a Supreme Being in the eyes of Christians, non-Christians nor can he be in the eyes of "Christian Satanists". All of the information that they have on this entity comes from the Bible, where he is clearly a secondary figure. The only proof they have for the existence of this entity comes from the Bible. They can't just suddenly turn around and say "The Bible is wrong, Satan is the Supreme Being" because that would make their whole belief system an illogical non-starter. If that were the case, the whole Bible is defunct and their belief illogical.

Look at it this way. If you invent the wheel and then a couple of months later I invent the tyre - it's totally illogical of me to say that I invented the tyre first. The same goes for the Satanist who has got his religion from the Bible and claims supremacy for Satan.

But this is all conjecture anyway. It's quite possible that a Satanist would be rejected for a different reason. If a Supreme Being is judged to be immoral (as Satan obviously is) and that immorality has been embraced by it's worshipper, the candidate will not be accepted on the basis of his own personal immorality, rather than the belief in the Supreme Being itself.
Freemasonry might profess to accept any religion but it does not accept men of blemished moral character.



[edit on 16-2-2005 by Leveller]

I think that the implication was 'satan only exists in the judaeo-christian' tradition.

But Masonry purports to accept ALL beliefs thatprofes a belief in a Supreme
being. I can point you to many who claim christianity as their belief who will
tell you that any other Diety than theirs is Satan in disguise, and as far as they
are concerned all other faiths are Satanic and Satan worship.
So by their definition they are Satanists.

How boring are these threads on secret societies getting!
Nearly as dull as all the end of the world theories...

Originally posted by stalkingwolf


But Masonry purports to accept ALL beliefs thatprofes a belief in a Supreme
being. I can point you to many who claim christianity as their belief who will
tell you that any other Diety than theirs is Satan in disguise, and as far as they are concerned all other faiths are Satanic and Satan worship.
So by their definition they are Satanists.

It doesn't matter what or how those Christians define other religions. Freemasonry defines the parameters with the assistance of all of it's members. Freemasonry is not a Christian organisation - fundamentalists don't make the rules. Freemasonry is first and foremost a fraternity - it is not a religion. Logically, if it were riddled with fundamentalists it would soon cease to be a fraternity and would turn into a religon.

Incidentally, I personally know a lot of Christians within Freemasonry but I don't know a single one who holds the view of intolerance that all other major religions worship Satan.