What God and why?

a reply to: Noinden

I seem to be worked up
Boy you should take a peek in the mirror
Fusion seems possible
Noie
It seems to me that you are saying
Polytheism and atheism allows people a choice other than monotheism
Monotheism doesn't allow people a choice, for some unknown reason

Just working out why monotheists don't ever get a choice is all

That is the question, don't read any more into my comment, don't add, don't subtract, don't think anymore into what is written, ok
Answer your question, do I, hope so

No arguments, no losing the rag, just wondering why some people think monotheists don't have a choice and what the better options are out there and why they are better options

It had nothing to do with Christianity, takeovers, religion, whatever
It was simply why can't monotheists choose anything else
Did I misunderstand your statement, is what you have clearly written there wrong, can monotheists actually choose atheism or polytheism, do we have a free will?

Obviously there was more to the question, unrelated, but the conversation (you can read argument) didn't go down that route, that's ok.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: chr0naut

I beg your pardon. That is a sweeping statement with no backup neighbor.

It is a sweeping statement.

But all of human history and society where the lawful and lawless coexist uneasily would backup what I said.

Governance and legalism arise from survival needs.

Even in the animal kingdom alpha's arise to lead packs. Intelligent, communicating animals have decided advantage over anarchic, individualistic ones.

This is why rules, which largely govern cooperation, exist.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Oh Raggy, look at you projecting so hard, you're almost the Enterprises Holodeck

You really missed the point of my post (it was not aimed at you, so I did not phrase it for you mind you).

You paraphrase poorly.

I said

"Honestly I think it comes down to control. Polytheism or atheism allows you to seek an alternative (other Gods, or your own opinion), and well that is bad when you want to control the masses "

What I mean by that is: I believe that there was a drift from Polytheism, through henotheism, to monotheism, for control. Control of the population to be exact.

Now the biggest set of Monotheistic faiths is the Abrahamic one, of which I believe Christianity is the largest group still (but loosing ground). However the dualistic Zoroastrian faith took a trip towards monotheism, with the cult of Mithras. And well, Mithras almost beat Jesus to supremacy, but the leaders of Rome always got antsy with the Soldiers feeling empowered. Which the Cult of Mithras certainly did, though their baptisms were .... less sanitary

Did I say monotheists don't have a choice to follow other gods? No. However they seem to feel that way (in fear of god, viz God Fearing).

So you tell me.

Why can't Monotheists choose another path? Is it in the indoctrination of "One and only one true god"?

Polytheism always has an alternative. Iv'e certianly moved to different Patrons and Matrons over the years, as I've built relationships with deiteis. Once Thor was someone I showed honor too, now not at all, while An Morrigan came onto my radar in Milwaukee of all places, and she's at the top now . Thor has not been vindictive, An Morrigan has not been jealous of my other Gods. I've not been smited (or is it smitten, which is the past participle of smite. But means something else) because of it.

The Athiest would say. Because "Noinden" gods are not real. The Monotheist would say "because your gods are not real gods". The Polytheist would say "that is because that is not how this works".

Hence my gnoses are:

The Gods are many
None are supreme
They will not strike you down, if you've not taken an Oath to them, and then move on from them.


You did not understand my comment, and it shows.

a reply to: chr0naut

Again, you don't back it up. For one, you are implying that Polytheists and Atheists are not holding to any rules. That the rules of monotheism are superior. Please post proof.

I thus say your biases are peeking out from under your dress

originally posted by: growler
leeds united is my god with elland road as my church.
at least its real.

if i had to believe in a fairy story i'd prefer aslan and the chronicles of narnia, he'd eat the dumb weak gods the masses blindly follow.
my talking lion eats your talking snake.

There aren't any fairies in Biblical Theology. You are filtering your understanding through nonsense, so of course it looks absurd to you. You are rejecting something that is profound on the basis of something that you know is vacuous.

Neither can a football club be a god, that also is a failure of reasoning.

a reply to: chr0naut

Eh from the point of view of an Atheist. My polytheism and your Christianity are fairy stories.

Fairy stories are not just stories of fairies. A Fairy story is a children's tale about magical and imaginary beings and lands. In that it is an untrue story. The Bible can be seen as containing many of those to a non beleiver.

So yeah nice try.

I reject that God in the Abrahamic sense is the supreme being. I reject Jesus is the savior of men. Thus I have rejected something you see as profound. You reject (I am pretty sure) my entire theology. It is all UPG.

Oh and no a Football club can not be a deity, a member of it could in Polytheistic times. Cults of heroes existed.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: chr0naut

Again, you don't back it up. For one, you are implying that Polytheists and Atheists are not holding to any rules. That the rules of monotheism are superior. Please post proof.

I thus say your biases are peeking out from under your dress

I made no mention of polytheists or atheists. I spoke only about those who reject leadership and legalism because they feel it impinges upon their personal freedom.

As for the philosophical advantage of Monotheism; Polytheistic religions have gods that are very human in one crucial aspect. They can beget each other. Gods can be born (by other gods, no less), they live, and they can be killed (although they do not die of old age - Amun-Ra ruled Egypt as pharaoh for thousands of years, according to the Egyptians, until his eyes "were the colour of lapis lazuli", when he went back to heaven where he would not age). This leads to a serious conceptual flaw when you think about it - where did it start? You'd have to go back to one god sometime in the past, who would then somehow be able to create all the "current" gods - for instance in Norse mythology the "father god", who also started the creation of the world tree Yggdrasil (grew out of his corpse, I think), was dead long before Odin, who I think was third or fourth generation. Monotheists then have a strong argument to polytheists, in that they simply ask - "where did your gods come from originally? Who really created the world? What existed before your first god, and who created him?" - and this becomes a problem to polytheists with whole family trees for the gods. Monotheistic religions say that there is only one God, who is more of a concept than a human-like god, who existed before the polytheistic gods, and had to, because he is the original creator. In addition, being immune to concepts of aging and time, the monotheistic God just is. The polytheistic gods must then be "false images" in the sense that they can not be true gods as they can die and be created. Therefore, monotheism is a conceptual leap over polytheism. By putting the One God before the entire basis of polytheistic theory, polytheism becomes very seriously undermined.

I doubt that I have the figure that would be flattered by a dress, although apparently many cultures including Tongans and the Scottish seem to carry it off quite well.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: chr0naut

Eh from the point of view of an Atheist. My polytheism and your Christianity are fairy stories.

Fairy stories are not just stories of fairies. A Fairy story is a children's tale about magical and imaginary beings and lands. In that it is an untrue story. The Bible can be seen as containing many of those to a non beleiver.

So yeah nice try.

I reject that God in the Abrahamic sense is the supreme being. I reject Jesus is the savior of men. Thus I have rejected something you see as profound. You reject (I am pretty sure) my entire theology. It is all UPG.

Oh and no a Football club can not be a deity, a member of it could in Polytheistic times. Cults of heroes existed.

So elements of science that have been disproven (the Luminiferous Aether, Tabula rasa, Phlogiston and Spontaneous Generation etc.) are also fairy stories?

For instance, if someone disbelieved in radio waves, it would not make the possibilities of radio and television broadcasts fairy stories, from their viewpoint.

I think you are being far too broad in your definition but even so, the beings would have to be definitely identifable as magical and imaginary rather than questionable. The story/s would have to be provably untrue.

a reply to: chr0naut

Based on the premise of the thread (which comes from a post of mine, which talks about Polytheists, and atheists) it is a legitimate conclusion you were talking about them. If not, you need to be clearer to what you were talking about.

Your northern Germanic mythology is not so good.

As for your comments on Polytheistic Gods. Your gnoses really are poking out

The moment you put "true gods" in. You showed that you are missing the point.

Please do prove that there is one true God.

a reply to: chr0naut

Science is not faith.

Faith is gnoses. They are inherently unprovable. Unless you define something measurable. What units shall we use? Jumping Jesuses? You've debated Atheists. You know their beef. Stop being obtuse. My definition is not too broad, from the point of view of the atheist. To them (not you or I) religion is tales for children.

Just as you talk about "One God", I talk about many. Prove me wrong? You can't. I can't prove you wrong either.

None of that was the point of the comment Raggy quoted. You too missed it.

a reply to: Noinden
Yes I get that you think a drift was enacted, that drift to mono was for control.
Thats probably partialy, mostly true, no doubt, maybe...

What I seem to be labouring at, for you to understand
Why cant monotheists up and leave and become atheists, multi god believers or what ever their free will allows them to do
If I wanted to worship An Morrigan, what, who and how am I being stopped.
I choose Jesus, for the opposite reason you choose a death deity
Jesus, peace and rest

Now you say fear of God, interesting in light of
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom"
When you understand that God is love, that fear dispells very quickly, like meeting a beautiful woman who intimidates you, as your relationship grows, that love grows, fear falls away and you enter a relationship where you want to please because you love her, not because you fear her
You can only assume

You talk of smitting and being smitten, my God doesnt smite, my God judges, justice is His cause, not jealosy
You read what you want into what you read


As for christianity being the largest group, doubt it ever was, many by name only, even today.

I understood your comments. You are just back tracking because you look silly.
I can choose any God/gods I like, I can choose none, I am under no compulsion
Dont assume I am.

So projectioning, I think its you
Morigan, godess of war and strife, saint to the nasty thieving violent people of Ireland. Yay you
Yaheweh God of love, peace, rest and justice

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: chr0naut

Based on the premise of the thread (which comes from a post of mine, which talks about Polytheists, and atheists) it is a legitimate conclusion you were talking about them. If not, you need to be clearer to what you were talking about.

Your northern Germanic mythology is not so good.

As for your comments on Polytheistic Gods. Your gnoses really are poking out

The moment you put "true gods" in. You showed that you are missing the point.

Please do prove that there is one true God.

Why are you doing this Noindy,
Its got nothing to do with the premise

Why do you think monotheists cant choose other gods
Thats the question

Why do you choose the gods you choose, what do they offer

Stop reacting like a child

I asked two questions, stop the hissy fit, start your own thread, bitch and moan somewhere else at something else

If I got your context wrong, it can be irrelevant to my questions, sorry, ignore it
Its surplus text to the questions

Calm down, you are over reacting

a reply to: Raggedyman

I am not the only person who thinks that neighbour.

Now I am not laboring to understand you at all.

People leave monotheism all the time. I know a number of my fellow polytheists, who were raised as pentacostal drones. Similarly a number of atheists too.

You keep missing, your god (he gets a lower case G if mine do from you ok?) is not my deity. He is of no import to me. He never has been. I was an atheist before I was a Pagan polytheist. I also went to a Christian Church, and survived quite well as an Atheist then a fledgling Pagan.

I'm sorry but the bible is replete with stories of your deity smiting people and places. He may be "love" in the new testement, he was a violent intollerant thug in the old.

I am not back tracking. I've made no assumptions about you. You just do not understand the points well! As evidenced with your discussions with others here. You also tried to represent what I said, badly.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Ahh but chrOnaught went there, not I. The only child would be you. Because you don't understand what I typed, to another poster.

I am not having a hissy fit. Afterall, you are the one getting other posters backs up. Not I

When you ascribe an over reaction to my posts, it is clear you can not actually talk to the points. Which is sad, you created the thread. You always do this when you loose control!

Why did I choose the Gods I chose? That would be more of a new thread.

I built a relationship with them. They chose me as much as I them.

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: Raggedyman

I think the truth is enshrined in most drama where self-seeking people are ultimately manipulated into doing things that they don't want to do. These people usually seek for their own pleasure and believe that they are self-actualising about their 'needs'.

Whereas those who hold to to absolute and unbendable rules, cannot be so easily manipulated, but must acquiesce first to a higher power.

Those who want to embrace their 'own way', see lawfulness as repression, not as a balanced way for large numbers of very different people to interrelate. They therefore resent 'lawkeepers' as opressors of their freedoms. They will never truly understand that they are enslaved to their own transient desires and that there are lawful and good fulfilments that are better.

Ok, what lawfulness did YHWH keep?
I mean, since he made all the laws WE are supposed to keep.

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: chr0naut

The rules of Christianity were made by men and not God. Asking anyone to take something on 'faith' is a cop out and forces us to suspend all reason. While I generally think positively of Christians; it is difficult to ignore the implied arrogance of their position which is essentially that they hold some secret knowledge over the rest of us. It is condescending whether or not it is intentional.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the God who endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended for us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei

What rules?
seriously do you have any idea what you are talking about met? Because I am lost

Nowhere in the bible are we told not to reason, thats in your head

If you were to reason then the entire Christian religion defies logic.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Raggedyman

What does (do you think) christianity teach that causes offence

Christianity is not one, it is a disparate collection of views. It ranges from Universalism (all people will be saved because Jesus) all the way to extreme personality cult ("Jesus appointed me to be your Apostle or Prophet or Guide. Follow my instruction or Jesus won't save you. All those others calling themselves Christian are false and lost. If they were true then they would be following me.")

Having specified the broad spectrum, the common offensive element is the need for salvation.

What control does chritianity have that is shouldnt

The need for salvation and the teaching that such can be acquired and that Christians know what it is and how it can be acquired. If I understand this correctly it goes like this: Without Christ you will die. With Christ you will not die but live forever. Death is either an illusion or else it will be cancelled for the "saved" (those who got salvation).

Why cant christians choose another deity if they wish, obviously they wont be christian but is anyone forced?

Sure people are forced. Parents force their children. Authoritative and peer pressure is a force. Usually, physical removal (like going away to college or joining the military or death of parents or guardians) is required.

Then, to choose other gods or no gods at all, is to lose the psychology of salvation. Many gods don't offer such a thing.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: Raggedyman

I am not the only person who thinks that neighbour.

Now I am not laboring to understand you at all.

People leave monotheism all the time. I know a number of my fellow polytheists, who were raised as pentacostal drones. Similarly a number of atheists too.

You keep missing, your god (he gets a lower case G if mine do from you ok?) is not my deity. He is of no import to me. He never has been. I was an atheist before I was a Pagan polytheist. I also went to a Christian Church, and survived quite well as an Atheist then a fledgling Pagan.

I'm sorry but the bible is replete with stories of your deity smiting people and places. He may be "love" in the new testement, he was a violent intollerant thug in the old.

I am not back tracking. I've made no assumptions about you. You just do not understand the points well! As evidenced with your discussions with others here. You also tried to represent what I said, badly.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: Raggedyman

I think the truth is enshrined in most drama where self-seeking people are ultimately manipulated into doing things that they don't want to do. These people usually seek for their own pleasure and believe that they are self-actualising about their 'needs'.

Whereas those who hold to to absolute and unbendable rules, cannot be so easily manipulated, but must acquiesce first to a higher power.

Those who want to embrace their 'own way', see lawfulness as repression, not as a balanced way for large numbers of very different people to interrelate. They therefore resent 'lawkeepers' as opressors of their freedoms. They will never truly understand that they are enslaved to their own transient desires and that there are lawful and good fulfilments that are better.

Ok, what lawfulness did YHWH keep?
I mean, since he made all the laws WE are supposed to keep.

YHWH is sinless, so He kept all of them.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for man slayers, for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and for any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: Raggedyman

I am not the only person who thinks that neighbour.

Now I am not laboring to understand you at all.

People leave monotheism all the time. I know a number of my fellow polytheists, who were raised as pentacostal drones. Similarly a number of atheists too.

You keep missing, your god (he gets a lower case G if mine do from you ok?) is not my deity. He is of no import to me. He never has been. I was an atheist before I was a Pagan polytheist. I also went to a Christian Church, and survived quite well as an Atheist then a fledgling Pagan.

I'm sorry but the bible is replete with stories of your deity smiting people and places. He may be "love" in the new testement, he was a violent intollerant thug in the old.

I am not back tracking. I've made no assumptions about you. You just do not understand the points well! As evidenced with your discussions with others here. You also tried to represent what I said, badly.

Yes they do dont they, leave monotheism, hence why I questioned your comment
You can "g" away anyway you want, you can be an adult and have an opinion as well, thats fine by me. I dont care about the g, I can use a lower case g for my god as well. Move on, dont lose it so soon into the reply, please.


Yes my god smites people, yes, he is a judge, I get it, I have read the book, so what...


Your comment was monotheisiests cant choose, why cant we choose.
Constantine didnt make me choose Jesus, thats silly

I dont understand why you think I cant choose

I also dont understand why people like you choose Thor.
No issues with Thor, good on you

I was just asking people why they chose their deitys