It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Irreducible complexity and Evolution

page: 16
16
<< 13  14  15    17  18  19 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Sep, 11 2017 @ 09:47 PM
link   
a reply to: kennyb72

So you are saying you know nothing of my religion, yet you are passing judgement? Seems about right for your sort


But here is a tidbit


"They teach that the soul does not descend to the silent land of Erebus and the sunless realm of Dis below, but that the same breath still governs the limbs in a different world. If their tale be true, death is but a point in the midst of perpetual life."

The deities are three fold, around the trinity of Land, Sea, Sky, all connected by Imbas.

Not all paths are the same. You do not know where my path is going


So go on, describe what you think my religion is. Or better still prove your ideas on Irreducible complexity and Evolution. I've read the things you have typed. You have not talked to my refutations. This implies you can't.




posted on Sep, 11 2017 @ 10:03 PM
link   
a reply to: Noinden




if their tale be true, death is but a point in the midst of perpetual life."


Well you have that part right at least... All paths lead to the same destination though, and some paths are much easier than others.



go on, describe what you think my religion is


Well you didn't reply to my enquiry regarding love, compassion and understanding. Because that is the key to placing your religion into any kind of context.

A word of caution though. We are all protected from evil through augoedies our personal symbiotic relationship with a divine being.

Evil cannot touch us unless we invite it in, and there are dark forces in the world that will trick and lie to fool you into welcoming them.



posted on Sep, 11 2017 @ 10:09 PM
link   
a reply to: kennyb72

You don't know who I even quoted ... yep par for this putt putt cause you call your posts


I've named my religion. Yet you can't search... try again Celtic Reconstructionism is the family it resides in!

Here let me help you.

The virtues I ascribe to include:

Honor
Loyalty
Hospitality
Honesty
Justice
and
Courage

You really are spouting some Abrahamic dogma in your posts, yet think you are being esoteric.



posted on Sep, 11 2017 @ 10:39 PM
link   
a reply to: Noinden

Nothing abrahamic in esoterics, it has existed for millennia long before any man made religion was invented.

Any similarity you witness is due to the fact that there is only one truth and all religions, even your own is based upon the same truth as is evident by your explanation of the elementals.


The deities are three fold, around the trinity of Land, Sea, Sky,


Yes the elements have consciousness, everything is conscious. I live in the midst of a deep forest and I am surrounded by elementals who express themselves through the animal and plant kingdoms. The forrest itself is alive and conscious and casts a mental envelope which is detected by all life.

It has no particular interest in me though, as those elementals are more concerned with the existence of the animals that live within its aura. As humans we are isolated from our collective consciousness and our augoedies, who are advanced elementals or Devas who, have lovingly taken responsibility for our spiritual growth.

An axiom of hylozoics is "energy flows where thought goes". That is pretty tough to achieve in this dense physical reality but nevertheless, there are humans who exercise the power of will and can perform magic, or at least has been, Jesus for example.

We can all do this in the next dimension, the world of Maya, matter is much finer than here, In fact if you don't learn how to manifest in the emotional world, it will leave you in abject terror and would cause the most hardened atheist to cry for mercy from God.


edit on 11-9-2017 by kennyb72 because: clarity



posted on Sep, 11 2017 @ 11:13 PM
link   
a reply to: kennyb72

You do not see your Abrahamic biases do you?

The deities are many. Deities of the Celestial (sky) Ancestors from the ocean of time about us and spirits of the land we live in.

You are stuck in the paradigms of you PDFs as opposed to working with the beings. This is made clear when you mention evoking and summoning. That is terrible *ghosti neghbout. Terrible and rude.



posted on Sep, 11 2017 @ 11:13 PM
link   
double post
edit on 11-9-2017 by Noinden because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 12:15 AM
link   
a reply to: Noinden

They are not biases, they where established long before Christianity or any religion.
Pagan beliefs held the truth in part. People where more sensitive to their environment pre Christianity.

The Christian message of love is pure and beautiful, but has been terribly distorted as there is no mention of reincarnation and that is a fundamental truth, so someone has gone out of their way to mislead people.



The deities are many. Deities of the Celestial (sky) Ancestors from the ocean of time about us and spirits of the land we live in.


I agree that there are many deities, well they appear to be deities compared to our limited understanding. It is these deities, or superphysical humans along with the elements that look over nature with love and compassion, They design and perfect biological forms to inhabit our planet.
They do so because they understand that in time we will join them on a magnificent journey, which every single monad will travel.

Augoeides, could be considered a deity, because that is who is listening when people express emotion outwardly in prayer, Our essential beings, (ancestors), have enough power over matter to convince any skeptic there is a God or a Satan.

Life here in the physical world is very temporary even 150,000 lives is very temporary compared to eternity.

Creation is a hierarchy composed of ever greater unities, Some are born of the Earth. The majority have never materialise in this dimension.

Beyond those elementals that play a roll in creation, the others are just beings with there own preferences, likes and dislikes.

The lower elementals really don''t like humanity very much as they witness the destruction of our planet with disregard for anything beyond themselves and who can blame them.

They are all attracted to goodness though.

Members of the black lodge however are attracted to evil deeds but are inconsequential if you lead a good life. They will temp you though, and will lead you astray, if you are weakened through drugs or alcohol.

The Demon drink is not just an expression, it is a state of consciousness devoid of will. If the will is not present, then their influence becomes evident.

A man devoid of will is subject to the will of others, in this world and the next.

Spirit possession is a thing. If you are devoid of will, they take any opportunity to access your senses in the physical world. And cause as much mayhem as possible.



as opposed to working with the beings.


I become aware of them regularly, and they assist me a lot, they appear to be on my side because when I ask for practical assistance they ALWAYS help me.



edit on 12-9-2017 by kennyb72 because: Rephrased paragraph



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 01:25 AM
link   

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Individuals can argue all they like. It does not mean they are correct. I'm (as I will keep reminding people, least the atheist label be thrown about again) a Pagan Polytheist and a professional scientist. My spirituality should hold no place in my job, nor my job in my spirituality.

Now to correct something you wrote. It is SOME quantum Physicists and some molecular biologists who say they see the need for a creator. Not all of them, lets not imply that eh?

I'd also add, most of the people advocating ID/Creationism do not indeed understand science. Or they'd stump up the evidence that can be peer reviewed. I certainly don't bring my own UPG to the table and say "there its proven, there are many gods".


I didn't say "all", though. Many do, however, state just that, and believe that's a far more sensible, and scientific, point of view. These are scientists, too, not laymen. Even laymen can understand science, as far as that goes, else why teach it in school?

For your own views, some creator, or creators, would fit in well, would they not? Beliefs aside, real science needs to be honest, and based on the data available, not discounting some ideas because the scientists aren't comfortable with religious/faith beliefs. The two aren't necessarily incompatible.

I am sure those scientists who do subscribe to some creator/designer have been peer reviewed.



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 01:27 AM
link   
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes




I am sure those scientists who do subscribe to some creator/designer have been peer reviewed.

How does a "creator/designer" preclude evolution?



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 10:36 AM
link   

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes




I am sure those scientists who do subscribe to some creator/designer have been peer reviewed.

How does a "creator/designer" preclude evolution?


I believe a god would be needed to make a god. Talk about confusing



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 11:20 AM
link   
Irreducible complexity doesn't apply to biological life, only machines. Evolution works based on small incremental changes, not sudden addition of brand new parts. That argument is ancient and LONG debunked. There is no reason you should expect to be able to remove a part (or half of a part) from a living creature and it still function. It is flat out laughable to suggest that at one point we had a half heart or half kidney or half lung. Evolution doesn't work that way. It's funny how the OP brought it up here as if it was some brand new point that none of us have heard before. That argument is at least 20 years old. Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with removing parts. Just because you can't remove somebody's heart and expect them to live, doesn't mean the heart didn't evolve via incremental stages. Get a real argument.
edit on 9 12 17 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 11:30 AM
link   

originally posted by: jjkenobi
Just the amazing complexity we continue to keep discovering in cells and their smaller components is mind boggling and raises serious questions on how evolution could have ever happened.


No it doesn't. The more we learn about cell complexity, the more it explains evolution in detail. We used to not know many of the mechanisms for genetic change. Now we pretty much know them all and evolution makes even more sense than it did before.
edit on 9 12 17 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 03:20 PM
link   
a reply to: kennyb72

Neighbour, again you are blinkered. I said Abrahaminc. Not Christian. Do you know which faiths that covers? Just curious.

Similarly this bias is leaking out into the discussion of Deity. You've gone to great lengths to question my deities validity, short of saying "they are not Gods".

Spirit possession. Yeah no, I don't fall for that. In my 30 plus years as an occultist. Every time, its been mental health issues. Not demons, deamons, or whatever name you give to it. Oh and yes I've taken part in rituals to remove the "occult problem". Every time, I've called mental health services, and the person has recovered with care, and medication.

You skipped a lot in my replies, which tells me, y'all can't actually engage in esoteric things. You are stuck in your own paradigm, yet accuse me of that.

You talk of "elementals" you talk of Augeoides. Yet you show no understanding of what you mean by those things. OR that they may not be the only answer.

Off you go.



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 03:22 PM
link   
a reply to: Phage

Shhhh don't startle her. These people spook easily with odd ideas



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 03:22 PM
link   
a reply to: Phage

Shhhh don't startle her. These people spook easily with odd ideas



posted on Sep, 12 2017 @ 03:28 PM
link   
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Out of curiosity, when did you do a survey of Scientists, to see their percentage faith? I think you will find (speaking as a Scientist, whos both taught at a University, and who works in the Industry of Sciecne) that it reflects the real world quite well. I've worked for (as in my supervisor) a devout Hindu, while there was a Catholic, Jew, and animist in my Process Development group (last job in the USA). My current group is myself (the Pagan) two agnositcs, one athiest, a Catholic, and someone from the Salvation Army, along with several "I don't talk religion" people.

Now my own views? No deity and evolution are not mutually exclusive. What is mutually exclusive is anytime some muppet says "how life started" or "how the universe started" needs to be part of the theory of evolution. that is a non sequitur. My own faith has the following myth of the beginning of the universe...

Once upon a time, there was no time and that was when there also was no gods and no man walked the surface of the land. But there was the sea, and where the sea met the land, a mare was born, white and made of sea-foam. And her name was Eiocha.



posted on Sep, 14 2017 @ 12:12 AM
link   
a reply to: Noinden

What has the following essay to do with irreducible complexity?

Since there is no inclusion of the power of consciousness, acknowledged in contemporary evolution theory, I refute your assumptions on the basis of inconclusive evidence that genetic mutation is a driving force in evolution.

It is my belief founded on hylozoic principles, that after a root creature is manifest into the physical world, it is then driven by impulse and emotional consciousness together with its collective intelligence, to improve its own physiology as it strives for efficiency.



They teach that the soul does not descend to the silent land of Erebus and the sunless realm of Dis below, but that the same breath still governs the limbs in a different world. If their tale be true, death is but a point in the midst of perpetual life."

The deities are three fold, around the trinity of Land, Sea, Sky, all connected by Imbas.

Not all paths are the same. You do not know where my path is going

So go on, describe what you think my religion is. Or better still prove your ideas on Irreducible complexity and Evolution. I've read the things you have typed. You have not talked to my refutations. This implies you can't.

All allegory is open to interpretation and misinterpretation, as is evident in the Christian bible.

The bible is a blend of the literal, allegorical, metaphorical and the metaphysical. It is a work that cannot be interpreted for what it is, ‘Sacred Knowledge’, the meaning of which, will incrementally reveal itself as consciousness becomes aware.

If people see code in the bible, they are looking deep into its metaphysical roots.

All holy book have similar aims, to encourages law of life values. Some knowledge is distorted by wilful individuals who deceive and who’s conscious decision guides them on their journey, whilst on their ‘left hand path’ towards self service.

Gnosis is knowledge, Gnostics were the keepers of the Gnosis, Gnosis is the basis from which Pythagorus constructed his mental framework.

Gnostic was a blend of Pythagorean hylozoics and sacred knowledge peculiar to particular groups. Some groups are not completely in accord with hylozoics and contradictions exists.

All religions regardless of geography, share its roots in ancient knowledge.

Here is a history of Hylozoism and as you will see how long it has been studied.

Hylozoism in popular culture

Wikipedia, mention Pythagorean in passing and is not credited for his invention of the hylozoic mental system.

Laurencey, who is also mentioned here, makes claim to the original sacred knowledge, as described by Pythagorus. It is true knowledge learned within the framework of the Pythagorean system.

Other hylozoic explanation share core beliefs but the Pythagorean system imparts knowledge and manifests a mind matrix that gradually facilitates access to causal knowledge. YEAH!

Within the context of Theosophy as was introduced by Madam, Helena Pertrova Blavatsky.
Laurency marvels at the accord with which Pythagorean Hylozoics stacked up against the also voluminous works, of Blavatsky. He constantly corrects terminology used in theosophy, based on his causal knowledge of the Pythagorean mental system.

It is clear that the two streams of knowledge converge.

Every single creature alive and extinct had ‘non local’ consciousness and directed its own evolution, once the cast was set.

You are correct in your examination when you are witnessing evolution of a species into sub species, with dramatic flexibility and adaptability.

What we are not witnessing is one creature becoming another. (yes, I know you will call it an old chestnut, your rebuttals are etched into mind, I understand your reasoning).

Every creature has a purpose, as do plants.

Animals are compassionately placed in the food chain in accordance to its awareness and when it dies it returns immediately, That is the purpose of the design, it is their life purpose to provide food in co-operation and spirit of unity to assist other animals to evolve, it is just one long chain of co-operation. You will see no spiritual conflict in nature

All animals will display fear for their survival because it is their core impulse. They too are quickly returned and the cycle continues until the monads biological form no longer serves its evolving consciousness. It will return as a higher order animal or transmigrate, either into the human kingdom or the Elemental Deva kingdom.

The elementals are as diverse as animals in the physical world. For all species of elemental beings, their entire existence has been one of group consciousness and continues through successive, evolutionary steps before they become Deva who are divine beings (angels)

Augoedies is a species of Deva and have devoted themselves to the task of cradling the human monad. Their duty completes once we attain essential objective consciousness in the essential kingdom

It is consciousness that drives evolution. All animals have hierarchical structures. The hierarchy is dominated by degrees of awareness of animals kinds: species, breeds, natural categories, It is their impulse, to gather ‘as like’ kinds, into a group soul,

That same principle applies during human evolution in families, kinship, clans, religions, sects, even stamp collectors if there is sufficient similarity in conscious awareness. it is commonality that attracts in the spirit realms.

As above, so below is ancient knowledge.

During the reincarnation cycle, human spirit arrives in clans at the same time and share life after life in different rolls and relationships with each other.

Each animal has only physical and emotional conscious, but their group soul acquires a mental envelope, (group intelligence) which in turn belongs to a larger group or ‘species specific’ intelligence.

All creatures enter into ever larger groups of consciousness, and all have influence on each other and so, on it goes.

Group consciousness guides behaviour.

Animals have no self consciousness and identify themselves as a group. Animal behaviour is guided by a natural hierarchical pecking order.

To witnesses the behaviour of a small dog attacking a large dog or group of dogs is evidence of lack of self awareness but displays agitated emotional behaviour, however the dog identifies as a dog, and share the same group soul.

The many group envelopes composed of involutionary monads, are all controlled by evolutionary elementals.

It is our relationship with domestic animals that accelerate evolutionary growth of consciousness in a specific group of animals

Hylozoics explains these relationships in great detail.

Hylozoic knowledge is to be discovered and is subject to serendipity, It is why I have buried this information deep inside a thread.

continue


edit on 14-9-2017 by kennyb72 because: Removed badly phrased paragraph



posted on Sep, 14 2017 @ 12:30 AM
link   
This almost makes me miss the old days of "why are there still monkeys?"



posted on Sep, 14 2017 @ 12:35 AM
link   
a reply to: Noinden



You skipped a lot in my replies, which tells me, y'all can't actually engage in esoteric things. You are stuck in your own paradigm, yet accuse me of that.



I don’t skip explanations for any other reason than the shear volume of information. To read Hylozoics is one thing, to study it is another, to know it and all its implications and applications, is a life’s work.

It teaches you how to think correctly, it does something to you which is a very spiritual experience. There is more to the Pythagorean mental system than is apparent.

If you digest the knowledge and work up every detail. You can go away, free your mind and do other projects. Somewhere in your sub-conscience, the knowledge itself evolves in your mind. (if you want a supernatural experience , do this!) Your clarity of who, and what your are, becomes obvious.

I have never experienced, enlightenment in the emotional sense, which is the eastern method. The powerful sense of intuition I feel in itself is blissful. It didn’t need to satisfy my emotional feelings, it has to satisfy my intellectual credulity. It is frankly, quite mind blowing.

It challenges you every step of the way until you think deeply on it, you then realise, that it can’t be any other way. It puts EVERYTHING in perspective and that is exactly what Meta knowledge, within a mental system, is designed to do.

This particular mental system was devised by Pythagorus and has been used for thousands of years by millions of people who study the Pythagorean philosophy .

Until recently this knowledge was esoteric, it has now become exoteric, as this knowledge is freely available IF you know where to find it and what you are looking for.

Some history of Hylozoism on Wiki, suggests evidence that Pythagorean Hylozoics is the essential authority of metaphysical explanation, being voluminous, intuitive, logical and revealing explanation in minute detail.

Gnosticism was born from Alexandria, where Pythagorus taught and studied 500 yrs earlier, plenty of time for the Gnosticism to work up hylozoic knowledge in their secret mystical schools. The record suggests that the Gnostics where influenced by the books of Paul and John, Esotericians claim it was gnostics who authored large parts of the bible.

What has not been revealed, nor will be, is the knowledge of magic and explanation of its workings using know physics and undiscovered physics. Too much power to be revealed. Atlantis, learned that lesson the hard way.

The story of Atlantis was ancient knowledge to Pythagorus, who was a causal being (last stages of mankind)

He studied in the great halls of Alexandria and spiritual centres throughout the ancient world. The knowledge was sacred and secret, and only initiates where allowed to become illuminated.

The Chaldean and Jewish Kabbahla attempts to explain the same knowledge, but leaves much to the acolyte to concretise through intuition, which is how it was intended.

The Kabbalha is also a mental framework where deductive reasoning affords the acolyte, the necessary reference points to mentally work up knowledge for themselves in accordance to the law of self activation.

It is a law of life … we are here to imprint knowledge, physical and spiritual, onto our causal envelope to consolidate upon all, self worked up knowledge acquired. A truism that can be drawn from a study of the law of self activation.

It is one thing to comprehend something and another to know. It is when we ‘know’ that we evolve.

Esoteric knowledge is more easily acquired if the knowledge has been worked up in previous lives. It remains with us as a latent memory that requires reactivation, this is precisely how it manifests in Scientists, Doctors, Musicians, Philosophers, Artists,Savant’s etc, who have leanings and inclinations
that becomes intuition and natural talent.

Scientists intuitively, visualise evolution. so do all the rest of us, it is not a hard concept to grasp.

In answer to many of your rebuttals on the grounds of ignorance. It requires little intelligence to understand a concept that has been drilled into us for a lifetime.

The details of scientific enquiry is not what a layman wants or needs, but it is obvious that a professional will soon blind by science any casual enquirer.

We want conclusions, accurate conclusions, and it is some scientific conclusion that challenges my common sense, which I trust implicitly. I am not a scientist but I am intelligent, as are many people who visit this forum who can’t understand your ‘reasoning’, not your science. I can’t see how you go from A to C heading the direction you do.

Can evolution theory and ID co-exist? .. according to hylozoics, To some extent.

We examine evolution much like a monkey would examine a cell phone. He may marvel at it, he knows it exists, it vibrates but he doesn’t understand it. Through experiment he may get it to light up.

Supposing there was no password he would discover a world of mystery. It is beyond him, so he eats another banana and life goes on.

He can learn if he is shown.

A human however with our more evolved minds (consciousness) will attempt to explain its mysteries as best he can, sans the knowledge of who created the device*. He will dismantle it map out every component, attempt to understand the functions of resistors, capacitors, circuitry in minute detail then stumble on the CPU, the brain of the device. it can be dissected but the instructions it contains will remain a secret.

You are examining the work of our ancestors who are now more evolved than we are. This is the relationship of comparative understanding achievable as we are now. Our perspective is as limited as the monkey with the phone.

Henry T Laurency, is the author of The Philosophers Stone, the first of several truly inspiring pieces of literature that explains in vivid detail the reality of life.

Nobody appears to know who he was, as he has sought no credit. His intellect is impressive as you would witness if you had the courage to examine his work.

Laurency, penned this knowledge at a cognitive, level that would be acceptable to a scientific mind.
In the spirit of Pythagorus’s aim to perpetuate the pythagorean principle which was to present a framework that all future science could built upon.

This is NOT new age BS, this is the foundation for new age BS, which all display incomplete knowledge and ‘New Age’ tampering. If you where to study hylozoics you will understand precisely where BS starts and reality ends.

The ancient knowledge filtered through many cultures, and attemted in as many various ways to describe the meaning of life, some much more complete than others.

Examples would be the Kabbalah and Rosicruitonism and various secret societies.

Rosicrutionism, provided a modern interpretation of ancient knowledge with its own framework for understanding.

Addendum: Martin Cooper was the creator.



Continue


edit on 14-9-2017 by kennyb72 because: Addendum



posted on Sep, 14 2017 @ 12:39 AM
link   
If "irreducible complexity" points to a certain god will it tell us which one?
Not saying it's impossible, I'm just curious as to which god it points to.



new topics

top topics



 
16
<< 13  14  15    17  18  19 >>

log in

join