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Yes, there are banned books

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posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 07:56 PM
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Forgery might bethe wrong word, "unstable" or"unreliable" is what I meant...

www.earlychristianwritings.com...


Ron Cameron comments on the textual integrity of Thomas (The Anchor Bible Dictionary, v. 6, p. 535):

Substantial differences do exist between the Greek fragments and the Coptic text. These are best explained as variants resulting from the circulation of more than one Greek edition of Gos. Thom. in antiquity. The existence of three different copies of the Greek text of Gos. Thom. does give evidence of rather frequent copying of this gospel in the 3d century. According to the critical edition of the Greek text by Attridge (in Layton 1989: 99), however, even though these copies do not come from a single ms, the fragmentary state of the papyri does not permit one to determine whether any of the mss "was copied from one another, whether they derive independently from a single archetype, or whether they represent distinct recensions." It is clear, nevertheless, that Gos. Thom. was subject to redaction as it was transmitted. The presence of inner-Coptic errors in the sole surviving translation, moreover, suggests that our present Gos. Thom. is not the first Coptic transcription made from the Greek. The ms tradition indicates that this gospel was appropriated again and again in the generations following its composition. Like many other gospels in the first three centuries, the text of Gos. Thom. must be regarded as unstable.


Here is a good article on it...

www.equip.org...

Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don’t deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the domain of Heaven."1

A glance at the ancient text reproduced above immediately tells the reader that the author knew little, if anything, of biblical teaching concerning the roles of men and women, and of the fact that both men and women were created in the image of God. Such false teaching comes plainly from Gnostic sources that vilified the body and exalted the spirit, and in the process often denigrated the feminine and exalted the masculine. The early church struggled long and hard against Gnosticism, which constantly threatened her. As early as Paul’s epistle to the Colossians, we find a strong warning against "proto–Gnosticism," telling us that Christ cannot be placed in any position other than that of Creator (Col. 1:15–18; 2:8–9).


There are people in the world who think that the way to life is "secret" that you have to join a closed group, believe something secret, have extra knowledge that others don't have, read a sacred text that "normal" people dont have access to etc.

But the heart of the person is hiding from the truth, because the truth is too unpalatable to bear, so anything else is better.

Books like this are not needed, if you want to really understand Jesus and follow him. They are only needed if you DON"T want to know the truth and instead want to believe something that is not so personally threatening.

Its the domain of the egotisitcal, puffing themselves up with "secret knowledge", of peddlers (buy my book to learn the truth), of people who don't want the truth, beacuse it threatens them too much.

People unwilling to face the truth, but running to find a source that relieves them from the responsability, and allows them to take the more easier route of intellectual deception, in the vain expectation that they will find peace.

[edit on 9-2-2005 by Netchicken]

[edit on 9-2-2005 by Netchicken]




posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 08:05 PM
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If there were books taken out then it is because they were not right



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 08:07 PM
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should i not read these books netchicken???

i read the infancy gospel of thomas and it is amazing (i don't know about true though)...

it tells of Jesus as a kid...

something that the bible never mentioned (except for Him being born and the temple story)...





posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 08:07 PM
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Don't know the part, but the christians, also a guy who is also now a big important judge due to the upgrade given to him by his old friend Bush, wrote a sereis of books on how women are to be subserviant to men according to the bible. Hell, the guys wife believe the stuff, how IDK. Ok, misleading or unreliable I understand, but forgery is hard to prove. Ok, unreliable? How is it more unreliable then any other? Don't they have the same amount of proof as the other books, which is none? No history/science proof, just the bible itself? So unreliable is a good answer, but how are they more unreliable then any other part?

Also, can understand why there is only the bible as a source, why would a scholar of the time write about a guy being killed on a cross during a time when that was the way to kill people, and many people were killed. So that would explain the Gospel Of Thomas, only that would write about Jesus growing up, for not to many scholars if any would have, it wasn't important, at the time. Besides, even if it is bs like most of the bible, it is a good story, like most of the bible. It shows Jesus being a little brat, but growing up, he matures, and realizes he is something more then a kid, a man who needs to go out and help the people.

[edit on 9-2-2005 by James the Lesser]



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by Croat56
If there were books taken out then it is because they were not right


"right" in whose eyes???

God's or the people that want control???





posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 08:11 PM
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There would be millions, if not billions more christians if these books were left in the bible. Who knows, maybe the dark ages may not have been so bad, women would have been equal to men, no need to fight for the right to vote for they would have already had it. Who knows, why the church considers explaining things evil IDK.


Oh yes, but for a tiny piece of information, we would be living in paradise, GET REAL, have you read any of those other gospels? They really don't make a hell of a lot of difference. In the US South they taught the slaves Christianity to control them, instead the slaves found the message of freedom. It's not down to what it says but how you interpret them. Look at all the different denominations of Christianity, all pretty much the same book and teachings, and core beliefs, but they still choose to interpret things differently.



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 08:13 PM
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There we go again, do you really think that the early church leaders wanted to "control" people by leaving the books out, or were just concerned that the correct teaching was given from the most reliable sources?

Don't bother answering that, I think I know what you believe on it.

Read your brains out for all the good it will do you. What I am saying is that you don't NEED extra books, even if you only have 1 book of the gospels it would be enough. Read as much as you wish, salvation doesn't come trough reading books, nor does it come through knowledge. its a flight of the ego, excaping to intellectual knowledge to avoid facing the truth of the human situation.

[edit on 9-2-2005 by Netchicken]



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 08:16 PM
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Pilate, the gospels have answers. Many people don't like christianity cause they don't freaking like that the bible asks 5 questions, but then goes on to something else, like the writer had ADD or something. "What is the difference between arab and person you may ask? Today's weather prediction shows record highs, now what does this mean to you? Reading is important if you... Hi my name is Mike, how are ships made inside of bottles? My mother was a waitress at Olive Garden." See? annoying.

Also, alot of women don't like that the bible makes them little more then slaves to man, baby factories and nothing else. With the gospels that were removed, who knows, if not removed maybe more women would fell compelled to become christians, or participate in church instead of feeling like a sub-human for not being male.

Edit. NC, don't need? The christian faith is based on the bible, if you remove or add things to it, you change the faith. If you leave out the ten commandments and Genesis, you change the christian faith. Ok, I go back in time and change Genesis, no longer did god create Adam in his image, now Aliens came down from Jupiter and slappd a dog in the face and the dog changed into a human. Guess what? I just changed the christian faith. If you remove/add/edit the bible, you change the faith, so if a book is left out or added you are doing something powerful, something that effects over a billion people.

[edit on 9-2-2005 by James the Lesser]



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 08:17 PM
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Originally posted by Netchicken
There we go again, do you really think that the early church leaders wanted to "control" people by leaving the books out, or were just concerned that the correct teaching was given from the most reliable sources?

Don't bother answering that, I think I know what you believe on it.

What I am saying is that you don't NEED extra books, even if you only have 1 book of the gospels it would be enough. Read as much as you wish, salvation doesn't come trough reading books, nor does it come through knowledge. its a flight of the ego, excaping to intellectual knowledge to avoid facing the truth of the human situation.


hey...

its a conspiracy site and thats why i said "the people that want to control"...

i dont really believe in that crap...

the church isnt that powerful / influential anyway...

for example...

the pope said there should not be a war in iraq but bush didnt listen and he made this war...

anyway, your words are great netchicken...

you must be very religious...

i will read these "other" gospels for entertainment / more knowledge...





posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Umm, how do you figure that the Deuterocanon. or Apocrypha (Hidden Writings) are apocalyptic in nature? Not all of them are.


Honestly, the only reason I associate these canons (including the Book of Astronomy) because I studied them in one of the few Judaic classes (Apocalyptic Imagination) that I completed at the University of Arizona. If you would like me to go further into this topic, then I'm going to have to rediscover all of my class notes which are buried beneath an array of Maxims and FHMs deep within my closet. Let me know if you need evidence.



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 09:00 PM
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The Apocrypha does not belong in the Bible. A Catholic will tell you the Bible has 72 books when it only has 66.

The Bible as we know it was completed waaayyyy back in the first century.

The King James version is the only accurate English version we have today. We're promised that God's word will never perish/go away/whatever. It's preserved in what's known as the Authorized King James--sans Apocrypha.

God also promises dire consequences for those who would add to/take away from the Bible.



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 09:13 PM
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Originally posted by Amethyst
The King James version is the only accurate English version we have today.


The King James version of the bible was manipulated from the Hebrew Torah and altered in a way solely to control the people of King James empire. And it's lasted this long...go figure.



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 09:24 PM
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KJV is more edited then all my posts together. KJV is what got millions of women killed for being witches even though all they did was speak up against their husband, burnt dinner when the husband was having a bad day, for wanting to be moe then the baby machines the bible tells them to be, so forth. Also, the Bible is messed up, the OT anyways. Moses split the reed sea, not red. But when translating, they got it wrong. Had it on history channel then looked it up on google. And god is gonna do something? like what? He hasn't done anything in the past 1900 years, he gonna smite all the publishers who edit the bible for their publishing company?



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 09:32 PM
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as posted by Simulacra
Honestly, the only reason I associate these canons (including the Book of Astronomy) because I studied them in one of the few Judaic classes (Apocalyptic Imagination) that I completed at the University of Arizona. If you would like me to go further into this topic, then I'm going to have to rediscover all of my class notes which are buried beneath an array of Maxims and FHMs deep within my closet. Let me know if you need evidence.



Simulacra, I had the same class some years ago when I attended the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. All I was trying to point out was that not all the books that make-up the Apocrypha (Deuterocanon) are entirely apocalyptic in nature. Would you agree with that?
I do not recall First Esdras, First and Second Macabees, Tobit, Judith, The Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus (the Wisdom of Jesus, the Son of Sirach), the Additions to the Book of Esther, or the Story of Susanna, among a few others, being apocalyptic in nature. I may be wrong.




seekerof

[edit on 9-2-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 09:54 PM
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There are many spiritual writings that's been inspired by the Holy Spirit and they're not found in the compilation of books that we know of as the Holy Bible today.

The Holy Bible that we know of today was put together to bring about unity in a divided people under a ruler named Consantine.

He published the "Edict of Toleration" making Christianity legal.

I purchased the "Mysteries of Enoch" and another book by Elizebeth Prophet, "Fallen Angels and the Origins of Evil" and found them to be very interesting reading.

They both talked about the "Watchers" (hint: they're not of this Earth) and supposedly suppressed by the early Church for this content among other things (e.g. the fallen angels). Elizebeth Prophet even mentions a "Mother-in Heaven", something that is taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints!

Here's an interesting link about Enoch and another about Our Mother in Heaven.

Just my thoughts!



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 10:17 PM
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The Holy Bible that we know of today was put together to bring about unity in a divided people under a ruler named Consantine

There were two such bible's used, the Greek translation used by Constantine (Orthodox) in Constantinople, the Septuagint, and the Latin version used by Roman Catholics and the Popes in Rome, the Vulgate. Both were translation of and from the Tanach/Tanak (Tanakh).




seekerof

[edit on 9-2-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 11:32 PM
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James asks a simple question and half of you jump all over his forehead with your anathematizing stamps. Why? especially when none of you speak the truth, to wit:

Apocrypha are books not accepted as truth, apocalyptic or otherwise. And why would this be so? Because a bunch of men being the majority, anointed themselves as being divinely inspired with the assistance of kings and thus infallible, thereby declaring all opposing views as sacrilegious.

And yes! The early church fathers wanted control. They were a scant few hundred of uneducated ignorant misogynists throwing temper tantrums when they didn’t get their way and wailed to the masses when they themselves were persecuted, yet not a one of them shed a tear when they Jews they so objected to met the same fate.

-----

Not banned? Why yes they were! Rather than attack this man, why not spend some time learning about the deception that lies behind the Christian religion?

140 years after the death of Jesus 7 books are not recorded in the following canon; one, Hermas, is a blatant lie written under deception and preached for decades; and the other, Peter, is believed but kept secret for 3 decades until excised. And this deception do you suppose satisfies the dead who were preached and believed in this nonsense for 170 years?

C170. Muratorian canon fragment: referencing Pius1.

We receive only the apocalypses of John and Peter, though some of us are not willing that the latter be read in church. But Hermas wrote "The Shepherd" very recently, in our times, in the city of Rome, while bishop Pius, his brother,was occupying the chair of the church of the city of Rome. And therefore it ought indeed to be read; but it cannot be read publicly to the people in church either among the Prophets, whose number is complete, or among the Apostles, for it is after their time.

----


Not banned? Why yes the apocrypha were indeed banned! An enlightenment for those of you who profess to know otherwise:

2nd Council of Constantinople 553

Moreover, condemnation has been passed by us against the heretics and their impiety, and also against those who have justified or shall justify the so-called "Three Chapters", and against those who have persisted or will persist in their own error. If anyone should attempt to hand on, or to teach by word or writing, anything contrary to what we have regulated, then if he is a bishop or somebody appointed to the clergy, in so far as he is acting contrary to what befits priests and the ecclesiastical status, let him be stripped of the rank of priest or cleric, and if he is a monk or lay person, let him be anathema.

And who exactly do you think had possession of the scriptures? The clergy and the wealthy!

----


Not banned you say?


2nd Council of Nicea 787

Affirmed that no one may become a cleric or read from scripture unless receiving the laying on of hands by a bishop…

All those childish baubles and bacchic rantings, the false writings composed against the venerable icons, should be given in at the episcopal building in Constantinople, so that they can be put away along with other heretical books. If someone is discovered to be hiding such books, if he is a bishop, priest or deacon, let him be suspended, and if he is a lay person or a monk, let him be excommunicated.

----


Still not a good enough definition of banned?


Council of Trent 1545-1563

The holy, ecumenical and general Council of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the same three legates of the Apostolic See presiding, keeps this constantly in view, namely, that the purity of the Gospel may be preserved in the Church after the errors have been removed…

…to check unbridled spirits, it decrees that no one relying on his own judgment shall, in matters of faith and morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, distorting the Holy Scriptures in accordance with his own conceptions, presume to interpret them contrary to that sense which holy mother Church, to whom it belongs to judge of their true sense and interpretation, has held and holds, or even contrary to the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, even though such interpretations should never at any time be published. Those who act contrary to this shall be made known by the ordinaries and punished in accordance with the penalties prescribed by the law….

And wishing, as is proper, to impose a restraint in this matter on printers also, who, now without restraint, thinking what pleases them is permitted them, print without the permission of ecclesiastical superiors the books of the Holy Scriptures and the notes and commentaries thereon of all persons indiscriminately, often with the name of the press omitted, often also under a fictitious press-name, and what is worse, without the name of the author, and also indiscreetly have for sale such books printed elsewhere, [this council] decrees and ordains that in the future the Holy Scriptures, especially the old Vulgate Edition, be printed in the most correct manner possible, and THAT IT SHALL NOT BE LAWFUL FOR ANYONE TO PRINT OR HAVE PRINTED BOOKS WHATSOEVER whatsoever dealing with sacred doctrinal mattes without the name of the author, or in the future to sell them, or even to have them in possession, unless they have first been examined and approved by the ordinary, under penalty of anathema and fine prescribed by the last Council of the Lateran.


[edit on 2/9/05 by SomewhereinBetween]



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 03:42 AM
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Semantics Somewhere, Semantics, I say banned, they say not allowed in. Same thing but banned sounds bad, even though the truth.

Anyways, it is amazing that the only "forgeries" or "unreliable" books are ones that, again, give women power or explain things. Remarkable isn't it?



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 07:33 AM
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Originally posted by Netchicken
There are people in the world who think that the way to life is "secret" that you have to join a closed group, believe something secret, have extra knowledge that others don't have, read a sacred text that "normal" people dont have access to etc.

But the heart of the person is hiding from the truth, because the truth is too unpalatable to bear, so anything else is better.

Books like this are not needed, if you want to really understand Jesus and follow him. They are only needed if you DON"T want to know the truth and instead want to believe something that is not so personally threatening.

Its the domain of the egotisitcal, puffing themselves up with "secret knowledge", of peddlers (buy my book to learn the truth), of people who don't want the truth, beacuse it threatens them too much.

People unwilling to face the truth, but running to find a source that relieves them from the responsability, and allows them to take the more easier route of intellectual deception, in the vain expectation that they will find peace.


God gave each of you a brain, you don't have to be a Christian and accept the entire bible word for word. Know and understand that it is only logical that over the years, it has undergone changes, editions, mutations, corruptions, and yes, even the beloved KJV. This should only encourage the true believer to test everything, not be afraid of questionable passages, it very well may be wrong. He gave you all an understanding of good and bad, use discernment on all matters of doctrine. The Church of the dead, i.e. Rome and its' controling counsels, did indeed wish to control the masses. They hindered the gospel of truth. It is not fair to associate the true church of Jesus Christ with these a_sho_e_. Sorry for the slang. Not really.

SomewhereinBetween, Stop going to the false teachings of men to justify your unbelief in the truth. This is only a veiled excuse. Beneath the grievance, I see hatred of men. Hatred of God. Jesus loves women. Women love Jesus. Stop excusing disobedient behavior by exposing the evil oppression of man. We are all accountable for our own sins. This does not give you the right to justify yours'. You were created beautifully and wonderfully. Life is a gift. Start soaking in the blessings of it. You have so much potential, (I wish I had your intelligence) yet you waste it on crying for so-called equality and justice.

Plumbo

[edit on 10-2-2005 by Plumbo]



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 07:40 AM
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Here are a few interesting reads...

simr02.si.ehu.es...

www.aloha.net...

www.prnewswire.com.../www/story/12-19-2003/0002079002&EDATE=



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