Nurse forcibly arrested for not allowing cop to draw blood of unconscious patient(Video)

a reply to: alphabetaone

Yeah case law from a hundred years ago is out of date. Since then it has been changed - you cannot resist an arrest.

ATS - The right to resist arrest and YOU!

a reply to: diggindirt

They(RN and her lawyer) were following Hospital policy and both claimed the SLCPD agreed to it. The Mayor and Chief said otherwise.

* - source

Brown and the mayor of Salt Lake City have apologized for the incident and changed their policies to mirror hospital protocols.

* - source

Judd said that soon after the blood-draw episode, the assistant chief quickly apologized to hospital administration for the encounter and arrest. The department examined its policy for blood draws, which was tweaked, and committed to additional training for its officers who conduct draws. The department has continued to meet with university medical officials in recent weeks, she said, to ensure adequate procedures are in place so ”it doesn’t happen again.”

The updated policy, provided by the department, states that a blood draw requires consent by the subject, or a search warrant — noting that ”implied consent” by the subject of the draw is no longer allowed. The updated policy also notes that ”blood draws are subject to established search and seizure laws.”

I havent dreamed anything up and if you actually read my posts (where the above info can be found in numerous places now) you would see I wanted to know the history between the Hospital and SLCPD. Based on my experiences they are behaving in a manner that is consistent with previous issues between the 2 entities. Instead of reposing my argument, again, I suggest you go back and read the exchanges where the info in your post, and what you are falsely accusing me of, is addressed.

a reply to: Xcathdra
Do you have any evidence that the hospital and the police department didn't have a policy? The nurse had a copy of it and actually showed it to the cop. I see nothing that says that they had no policy agreement. At some point they had an agreement or that document would not have been available for her to print.
The fact that the hospital's lawyer's had changed their policy to be in line with the law doesn't excuse the police department for not doing likewise. Obviously the correct policy was that of the hospital, the one she exhibited to the cop since the PD took the step of making their protocol match that of the hospital.

Fact: The nurse was doing her duty to protect her patient.
Fact: According to law the cop had no right to draw blood from her patient.
Fact: The cop was told to stop pursuing the sample yet he persisted.
Fact: The cop viciously attacked the nurse without cause.

Imagination: The nurse wanted to provoke a confrontation with the cop.
Imagination: There is a "history" between the hospital and PD that would "explain" this cop's behavior.

You do have a fertile imagination. I'll give you that. Your claims have jumped all over the map in your vain attempts to justify this jerk's behavior. Then you deny that you've said. You keep accusing posters of not reading your posts yet it seems that it you who are confused. Perhaps it is you who should review the thread. From special circumstances allowing him to demand action without paperwork to all the other crazy balloons you tried to float.

You keep saying he could have handled it better. How about when he was told to forget about getting the sample he followed that direction? He was told they would obtain the sample legally. All he had to do was walk out the door.

a reply to: Xcathdra
How do we know he was being intentionally delayed and getting the runaround? That's a hospital and even on light days in which the room looked almost empty, I know I've had to wait an hour in an ER to have very serious but non life threatening injuries and illnesses seen to on various occasions for myself or family. Just because that scene didn't look busy to us in the videos, doesn't mean the nurse wasn't doing other duties as well as seeing what could be done about the officer's request. After all, she had just processed the accident victim he wanted the sample from. That patient apparently had gone through several procedures to stabilize his condition and pain as soon as he got there. She had to keep track of all that, plus other things we laymen don't know about.

You have on several occasions now implied your own history with medical professionals isn't exactly smooth. It seems almost adversarial, in fact. I will tell you openly that you come across more closed off and quick to defend antagonist attitudes and behavior than you are to embrace friendliness and cooperation. I'm sure you have your reasons, but I hope you rise above whatever pettiness gets thrown your way. It's never too late to change and it is true that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, so I implore you to reexamine how you approach people in your line of work, especially the people who are on your side of the battle against death, chaos and disorder. We don't want you to be the next cop we read about like Officer Payne.

Though I am more off than on here these days, I remember you from various parts of the forum and recall that I have always enjoyed your insights on numerous topics, including this one. I want things to go well for you. I'm sure you're very good and successful at your job, but I can't help get the sense there's something missing for you. And from you. Don't let the ugly crap you deal with day to day rob you of your essential humanity. As I've faced down horrible things in my own life like cancer in my most loved ones and my own mortality, I've learned It is all we've got that's really worth anything.

Look at what's going on in Houston. Wealth and possessions and dignity and security were literally washed away. What gets those people through is their humanity and their cooperation with each other. We saw race and other differences be forgotten and people risking themselves to save each other. The officers there bring the best of themselves to their jobs. We all need to do more of that, and not just in times of crisis.

a reply to: Xcathdra
I suppose you are right and it's good that you are calling our attention to the fact our rights aren't what we think they are and what may seem reasonable and right behavior in the face of harsh or even brutal police behavior is not necessarily in accordance with our laws.

That is the fault of our laws, which ultimately is our responsibility. We really have ceded over our basic rights over the years. Now it's becoming more apparent why police aren't being found guilty in investigations even when public opinion perceives it to be otherwise.

The problem with the authority we have given police is that it's often being applied in ways that are beyond all reason. Police often claim reasonable actions like a person daring to question why they are suddenly being accosted and trying to get a police dog to stop mauling them is resisting arrest. I'm thinking specifically of another case in which police arrested a bewildered and terrified innocent black teen girl whom they somehow mistook for an adult male violent suspect and who they set a K-9 police dog on. That is a different case I read only one article on so I won't delve into it here. But I mention it because I think we've somehow let our country get away from "we the people". That was one case in which her arrest was unlawful because she broke no laws, it was mistaken identity, but in her terror at the way the officers suddenly approached her as if she were a violent perp, she committed acts of self defense that were, under the law, legally resisting arrest. She was acting reasonably by her perception and any other innocent laymen's perception. But by reacting at all, without perfect robotic compliance, even to a situation that made no sense to her and seemed threatening, police say she was acting illegally. She has a lawsuit pending so it will be interesting to see what the courts make of this.

You are throwing a new light on what happened with this nurse. It's an ugly light that says as much about what's wrong with our society that we let it unravel to the point an officer might actually have legal authority to treat Nurse Wubbels with such appalling disrespect.

I also understand what you're saying about the hospital's new policy possibly being still in conflict with the law and opening up the way for future worse conflicts between officers and hospital staff. The hospital and the police department would be wise to come together with lawyers to craft a better policy. This new policy they announced seems reasonable in light of what happened, but if the legality is questionable they need to amend it.

The law is interpreted by the courts as well as the officers. Officers often interpret the law different than the courts. They have immunity from public lawsuits in many cases but not from judicial rebuke.

There are no cases that would provide legal precedent for the officers actions.

While they could be legal under dept. procedure dept procedure is not immune from legal prosecution for the dept policy. The AG for instance can review the dept policy.

An officer is not given authority to abuse based on his or her emotions regardless of laws they believe apply. Officers are not the end interpreter of the law. They enforce it and often mis uses vague laws to abuse authority granted through the social contract (and constitution ).

You can tell by the shape these officers are in how seriously they take their job. I can imagine their marksmanship, tactical awareness, hand to hand, and threat assessment is on part with their physical fitness.

a reply to: diggindirt

Yes and I have posted it several times now. The Hospital policy was not the same nor was it adopted by the police department and the Mayor and Chief confirmed that in their statements on the topic, also posted several times now.

The nurse wasnt protecting her patient. The nurse was playing point counterpoint over criminal law and the hospitals policy. Something that could have been avoided had she told the detective a blood draw was already done as a course for medical care.

a reply to: Xcathdra
In your source posted above:

* - source
Brown and the mayor of Salt Lake City have apologized for the incident and changed their policies to mirror hospital protocols.

See what that says---"...changed their policies to mirror hospital protocols."

Yeah, the nurse was a cop hater who wanted to ruin her day by having a fight with a cop. We know your imaginings on the subject but they have nothing to do with the facts. The chief and and the mayor had the facts and apologized to the hospital and the nurse and changed their policies to mirror hospital protocol.

As I said, perhaps you need to review the thread and actually read some of the sources you've posted because they don't support your position. If the cop was in the right as you claim, the department and the mayor wouldn't be bending over backwards to apologize and change their policies.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

USP got a report of a reckless driver. When they tried to initiate a stop, the (now dead) driver took off. They've said that it was a "brief" pursuit.

A reckless driver, not even a murderer or something, and they ran him into traffic?? Wow....it's a wonder they didn't cause other people to be killed as well!!

a reply to: diggindirt

Yup and if you understood context you would realize the PD policy was changed AFTER the incident occurred.

At the time the incident occurred the Hospital policy and SLCPD policy were NOT the same. The nurse and her lawyer lied when they claimed they were the same. The Mayor and Chief confirmed that.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

USP got a report of a reckless driver. When they tried to initiate a stop, the (now dead) driver took off. They've said that it was a "brief" pursuit.

A reckless driver, not even a murderer or something, and they ran him into traffic?? Wow....it's a wonder they didn't cause other people to be killed as well!!

The dash cam video doesnt support your claim. They did not run the guy into traffic.

Secondly no one could have known the drivers criminal background, if any, until after the fact. You cant use 20/20 hindsight to review police actions.

a reply to: Xcathdra
You are just arguing with yourself now...

The mayor and police chief did not accuse her of lying. They apologized to her and "changed their policies to mirror hospital protocol." That is from your source. She was working with the policy the hospital administration had given her. Her lawyer wasn't there. How in the name of heaven was she supposed to know that the police department hadn't updated their policy to bring it into line with the law? Every legal eagle that has picked through this case has sided with the nurse. You can go on believing that she's really just a cop hater who was hoping to get on Youtube but that's not what normal people see.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: diggindirt

Yup and if you understood context you would realize the PD policy was changed AFTER the incident occurred.

At the time the incident occurred the Hospital policy and SLCPD policy were NOT the same. The nurse and her lawyer lied when they claimed they were the same. The Mayor and Chief confirmed that.

Oh man , you do realise that you are simply confirming to the rest of us that no matter what, you will not accept responsibility regardless of being right or wrong.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: alphabetaone

Yeah case law from a hundred years ago is out of date. Since then it has been changed -

Right. I was trying to point out that at some point, under the proper conditions, that it WAS legal to resist arrest, and this thread is a shining example of why, in our effort to be overly litigious, some laws should not have changed.

you cannot resist an arrest.

I can do any damned thing I want as long as I am comfortable with shouldering the consequences of whatever those actions are.

www.sltrib.com... well it seems its not looking good for the officers on leave and with how many policies they violated and general bad conduct of the officers they are far from out of the woods yet

An internal affairs investigation into two Salt Lake City police officers involved in the arrest of a University Hospital nurse has found several department policies were violated during the July 26 confrontation. Salt Lake City Mayor Jackie Biskupski announced the investigation findings Wednesday in a news conference at City Hall. In addition, she discussed a recently-completed review by the city’s independent Police Civilian Review Board, which also found the officers violated department policies. Detective Jeff Payne and his watch commander, Lt. James Tracy, now have 20 days to respond to the internal affairs investigation, after which Chief Mike Brown will use the reports to make a decision on the officers’ future. Tracy and Payne could face consequences as severe as termination by the department. A criminal investigation into the incident also continues, involving the Unified Police Department, the FBI and the Salt Lake County District Attorney’s Office.

so either through negligence or ignorance they violated their own policy,the policy of the hospital that was quoted to the officers by the nurse and now have twenty days to respond

www.washingtonpost.com... /?utm_term=.ecb049bbf632

Officials in Salt Lake City have released the results of two investigations into the widely publicized arrest of a Utah nurse who refused to draw blood from an unconscious patient — and the conclusions are scathing. Detective Jeff Payne’s actions were “inappropriate, unreasonable, unwarranted” and “disrespectful” when he manhandled University of Utah Hospital nurse Alex Wubbels and shoved her screaming into a squad car, a probe by the police department’s internal affairs division found. Payne and his supervisor, Lt. James Tracy, violated a slew of ethics rules and other department policies, disgracing the police force, according to the report, which was published Wednesday by the Salt Lake Tribune.

so throw in some ethics violations as well bet this officer wishes he could take his actions back and get a do over on that day

and from Salt lake city mayors webpage

In reviewing the evidence, IA has sustained the findings and the following policy violations will be considered (further description provided below): Department Policy II-150 (Conduct Unbecoming) Department Policy II-170 (Courtesy in Public Contacts – Personal Contacts) Department Policy III-030 (Arrests – Misdemeanor Citations: Class B, C and Infractions) Department Policy III-680.4 (Reports – Situations Requiring a Report) The Department’s Law Enforcement Code of Ethics City Policy 3.05.01 (Standards of Conduct) The two investigations relied on interviews with the two officers directly involved, a third SLCPD officer present, Ms. Wubbels, police reports, and footage from three body cameras.Text

so those are the violations/possible pending charges the officers face and a link to the redacted report will be posted below this


static1.squarespace.com... first redacted report

www.slcdocs.com... much longer report on the matter with statments from those involved wont quote any of it as ive posted enough snippets but it talks about how the officer was in violation of the policy that was apparently established between the pd and the hospital to comply with changes in the law. it also clarifies the officer was ignorant of the law and new policies related to blood draws and was mistaken that he could take one with out a warrant

so i guess it comes down to the whole ignorance of the law is no excuse least on the officers part ,badge or no badge he had no authroity to arrest her (should have issued her a citation) and he was woefully uninformed about policies agreed to and generally was not accurately trained in changes to the law that had occurred since his hiring

a reply to: alphabetaone

Yeah - you cant resist an arrest and going down swinging in your mind is pointless. Use the courts to challenge an action.

a reply to: diggindirt

I never said the Maor or Chief accused her of lying and if you read my posts thats clear so top making stuff up.

What I did say was the nurse and her lawyer lied when they claimed the SLCPD adopted Hospital policy. The fact the Mayor and Chief both stated their policy was immediately reviewed and then changed supports my conclusion.

Anything else you want to distort?

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
Yup and if you understood context you would realize the PD policy was changed AFTER the incident occurred.

At the time the incident occurred the Hospital policy and SLCPD policy were NOT the same. The nurse and her lawyer lied when they claimed they were the same. The Mayor and Chief confirmed that.

Oh man , you do realise that you are simply confirming to the rest of us that no matter what, you will not accept responsibility regardless of being right or wrong.

Didnt follow the conversation did you? What part of this is confusing you?

The policies werent the same.
The nurse and her lawyer claimed the police agreed to the hospital policy.
The mayor / chief said they changed their policy after the incident.

You up to speed now?

a reply to: Xcathdra

An internal affairs investigation into two Salt Lake City police officers involved in the arrest of a University Hospital nurse has found several department policies were violated during the July 26 confrontation. Salt Lake City Mayor Jackie Biskupski

Just bug off you lost about 80 posts ago.

a reply to: Xcathdra
Perhaps you should apply to be the detective's lawyer since it appears from the above links that he is going to need one. Maybe you could explain to all those lawyers and investigators why he should be held free of blame. They don't seem to agree with your "conclusion" so the detective and his boss are going to need your help to explain the situation.

I'm not the distortionist here, it's you who are arguing with yourself.

It is obvious to anyone who reads and comprehends English that the PD was way out of line and their policy was way out of date in regard to Utah law. Because of Nurse Wubblels, other nurses won't have to go through the horror of being abused and threatened for following the law. Your claims that charges against her could still be filed appears to have evaporated upon close inspection of the incident. She knew the law. The detective and his Lt. didn't. That's why the PD changed their policies to mirror hospital protocol.

But please feel free to keep arguing with yourself.