Nurse forcibly arrested for not allowing cop to draw blood of unconscious patient(Video)

All i know is that nurse probably helps more people on a weekly basis than 99 percent of all cops do in their entire careers.

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
All i know is that nurse probably helps more people on a weekly basis than 99 percent of all cops do in their entire careers.

Let's not get crazy. While XCath is way too far to one side of the spectrum, let's not swing it too far in the other either. I have worked with various types of law enforcement after my time in the service and I think thats a lot of hyperbole in one sentence.

The reason I take exception to how X is handling himself in this regard is that he claims to fight against all the "cop hate", but by prattling on and on about how RIGHT the cop was, tends to leave a bad taste in people's mouths about them which one would think is precisely something he wouldn't want.

There was zero justification for one moronic cops actions...but there is zero justification for us "civilians" to vilify them all by putting them all in the same bucket.

a reply to: alphabetaone
I think you are right on many levels.

A bad LEO can taint a person's view of LEOs. The average person sees it as it is. "A" bad cop. But when that cop is wrong and they are supported, protected, and excused by other LEOs, it creates feelings of betrayal and a us against them paradigm.

I am not saying that the fellow officers have to throw a bad cop under the bus as the first response, but not holding the bad cop accountable for his inappropriate behavior, and by not calling him on it, is the same thing as saying it is okay.

You can't speak that it is wrong with your mouth, then support and defend the actions. It makes for distrust and animosity.

Sounds like Payne has been fired by Gold Cross, for suggesting he was going to only bring transients to the hospital he f'd up at, and bring the "good people" tp other hospitals
www.sltrib.com...

a reply to: alphabetaone

As I have stated its possible to argue a legal aspect all the while not agreeing with an officers actions and I have stated many times now the cop should had acted differently than they way he did. I also called for more information to better place things into perspective as to why it occurred. I am not going to condemn one person based solely on the account of the other person involved, especially when not all the information is being reported. The nurse did in fact leave out information in her accounts of what occurred and she and her lawyer lied / misled when they claimed the hospital policy was agreed to by the PS.

The Mayor and Chief both refuted that claim when they both stated after the incident occurred that the policy they use was being reviewed and changed. It took several weeks to get a policy both sides could agree to and yet it still looks like they havent quite hammered it out completely.


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As for comments by other users about LEO supporting others, one can easily point out that it works in reverse as well. Some people are so tainted by their own bad encounters with law enforcement, encounters of their own making and not as a result of bad actions by law enforcement, that they do the very thing they accuse leo's of doing.

People were so quick to dismiss all the various laws and actions involved coupled with the fact we didnt have all the information, one could argue they acted in a similar manner that the detective did. Not taking a step back to get all the facts and instead acting on partial information and doing so in a manner thats not helpful.

People are so intent on demonizing law enforcement that even when other leo's state the officer should have acted differently it is ignored and the person is accused of defending the actions of the officer.

No one excused the leos actions. What I did do was ask questions and look at all possibilities as to the why. I asked questions about the medical staff / hospital and wanted to know the history between law enforcement and this hospital. No one else did that and instead immediately reached a conclusion before any investigations or clarifying information came out.

I have no issues with people questioning law enforcement. I do have issues when they are hypocritical when they do it and are blind to the fact their own behavior is the very behavior they took exception to in the first place.

a reply to: vonclod

according to the site you can use to look up status of licenses of paramedics hes lost his license to be a paramedic pending review as well as hes not listed as active emslicense.utah.gov... dont wanna post his actual license number as that would be too close to doxing for my liking but some one on reddit protect and serve forum (a forum for police and ems/firefighters ) did it and checked and while it was active 3 days ago its no longer now , so it seems he not only lost his job that hes had since the mid 80's but his license to be a paramedic for the whole transients comment

a reply to: RalagaNarHallas

Ambulance companies are highly competitive in most areas.

Anything that would bring bad PR to the company is a sure reason for dismissal.

I suspected that this would be the outcome when I heard the nasty comment he made about selectively transporting patients.

No ambulance company would be able to keep him on without damaging their reputation.

He cut his own throat with the comment, whether he meant it or not.

Ya, I'm not sure he really meant it..I would hope he would just do whats best for the patient at the time.
At this point I'm almost feeling sorry for the guy..almost. If this was a one off event/really bad day, than I, as a human being do feel a tinge of sympathy.
We all f up now and again, but his handling of the situation sucked ..to put it mildly.

a reply to: vonclod
I also think it was more likely bravado and ego at play.

The problem is that he displayed poor control and poor judgment in a way that impacted too many people, including those people that may need the services of the ambulance company in the future.

Who wants to risk that the paramedic that is supposed to care for your loved one, sees them in relationship to their ability to pay, over what their actual medical needs are. That he views indigent patients as less than, and bad people. That he thinks he has the right to manhandle someone that makes him angry or tells him no. His statements and his behavior is going to seal how people see him and they will not trust him.

He obviously has a problem with anger control and that makes him a liability when dealing with the public. Any employer will be a sitting duck for a hefty law suit if he mistreats another staff member or patient.

If he was having a bad day and he is not really like this, hopefully he will be able to regain the trust of his community. With the number of cases of rogue cops that have used overly aggressive measures when dealing with the public, it is going to be a hard sell.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

We are pretty much on the same page..I agree.

www.washingtonpost.com... tm_term=.3bf07589da73 the local prosecutor has asked for a FBI investigation into the case now

Prosecutors in Utah’s Salt Lake County have asked the FBI to join a criminal probe into the violent arrest of a local nurse who was manhandled by a detective and shoved screaming into a squad car as she tried to protect the legal rights of a patient. In a letter made public Thursday, District Attorney Sim Gill called on FBI agents to investigate whether the arresting officer or anyone else in the chain of command violated nurse Alex Wubbels’s civil rights or broke other laws during the July 26 incident.

from above source and also from same source
www.washingtonpost.com... tm_term=.3bf07589da73

Gill’s letter specifically mentions Payne and asks the FBI to look into “other police officers and law enforcement personnel and anyone else acting under the color of authority, or failing to act when imposed with a duty to act.” That means the investigation could cover officers from the University of Utah and hospital guards, some of whom could be seen in the video standing by while Payne arrested the nurse.

so seems the public attention to the case has attracted federal attention now

a reply to: RalagaNarHallas

In Law Enforcement investigations there are usually 3.

Internal Affairs investigation - Handled by the department the officer works for and examines if policies and procedures were violated.

Criminal Investigation - Handled by an outside agency to investigate any criminal violations. Being handled by the Unified Police District (sheriffs office) with a parallel investigation being conducted by the PA's office.

Civil Rights Investigation - Handled by the FBI. They look at potential violations of 42 USC 1983 of the Civil Rights Act to determine if a persons Constitutional rights were violated by a person acting under color of law.

All are standard procedure.

a reply to: RalagaNarHallas
I'm thinking you are correct about the attention. Otherwise, why did it take him from July to September to decide to write that request? Had the nurse not made a fuss, it would have been swept under a rug.

originally posted by: diggindirt
a reply to: RalagaNarHallas
I'm thinking you are correct about the attention. Otherwise, why did it take him from July to September to decide to write that request? Had the nurse not made a fuss, it would have been swept under a rug.

Probably because the nurse, the Hospital and her lawyer have an agenda. We are watching a pr battle play out with the Hospital. I still say there is a history between the Hospital and Law Enforcement on some of these issues that they dont see eye to eye on. The fact the Hospital / Nurse / Her lawyer have made claims not supported by the facts and have been refuted by the Mayor and Police chief. The fact it was the RN and her lawyer who released the body cam footage, selectively edited to the 2 minute clip as opposed to the entire 20+ minute video etc etc etc...

a reply to: Xcathdra

In a roundabout way the nurse did raise the patient's medical status as a reason for refusing the request. It's hard to hear, but in one of the videos she says that the patient has been administered medications. She seemed incredulous he would want the sample at this point which makes me wonder if she thought he should already know a more pure sample had been taken upon admission that he could get access to through proper channels.

I have been in fragile health in the past and had blood taken for testing and just taking a vial made me so sick I almost passed out. Not from squeamishness, but because I was in such delicate condition. I can't see why a police request to take a blood sample would supersede the judgement of a nurse or doctor against it, especially under the circumstances. The man was burned and unconscious and had medications coursing through his system and has already had a sample taken on top of any other blood loss he may have experienced due to injury. He may be a trained phlebotomist but that doesn't mean he couldn't cause harm.

As for his method of placing the nurse under arrest, he started off by trying to swat her phone out of her hand in aggravation because the conversation wasn't going his way. It looked more like an argument escalating out of control than an officer making a proper arrest. I'd say she was right to be fearful for her safety and backing away. For all she knew he was going to smack her with the way he was swatting at her phone.

Are women just supposed to let a man come at them in the middle of a conversation with hands raised against them just because the man is wearing a badge? If we are, then the police state we fear on this forum is definitely upon us. Look at it from her perspective, she's just there stuck in the middle with her supervisor trying to sort this out on the phone and the officer suddenly loses it and lunges at her, mostly trying to swat her phone out of her hands, and that looked like an iPhone and those things aren't cheap. She wasn't resisting arrest so much as trying to protect her property and herself from physical harm. He made it physical. He twisted her arm behind her back and shoved her around. He could have talked her through the process. It was all bureaucratic crap, she wasn't robbing a bank or meeting him in a dark alley with her hand in her pocket.

You said you don't agree with how he handled it and are just pointing out questions about the law and what the hospital and nurse might be covering up. That's fine. I'm not actually arguing with you per se. I'm just giving my take on the situation.

I'm honestly shocked our rights are more flimsy than I thought and we basically don't have any, not even the right to defend ourselves against being shoved around in the middle of a supposedly civil conversation. As a woman who has seen some nasty domestic violence around me, I find that really chilling.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: diggindirt

Oh I misunderstood you. In the case in Utah they are trained and certified and I assume the medical facilities in the region are aware of who can do what.



Common sense and civility are fine up to the point you have a job to do and people start interfering in that job.

Whoa whoa what--are you saying there comes a point in law enforcement when even common sense stops making sense and has to fly out the window? Would that be the point the officer's patience wears thin and it's time to shove someone around? Or shoot them? So we are all at the mercy of the officer's temperament at any given moment? Nothing is to be held subject to common sense if it conflicts with the officer's determination of what it takes to get the job done and get home?

Oh what am I saying, I know that's how it works. More and more the officers who operate on common sense and civility retire, or are killed in the line of duty, or leave and we are left with more and more who see their jobs this way. It explains so much of what I see right in my own neighborhood. Oddly enough you've made me respect and treasure some police even more. They must have such strength of character to resist falling into this point of view and throwing their authority around.

Update:

"Detective’s body camera confirms that Logan police asked him to back off blood draw before nurse’s arrest"

Jensen said his detective had talked to Payne about the situation before Payne arrested Wubbels. He said his department had no recordings of the call between the two.

While Logan police could have sought a medical subpoena to get Gray’s blood that was collected by the hospital, Jensen said, they didn’t. Police decided that they did not need Gray’s blood to proceed with the crash investigation, the chief said. He added that there is solid evidence about what occurred — including UHP dash camera footage showing Torres swerving directly into Gray’s semi. The crash remains under investigation.

Payne and a second officer — believed to be Tracy — should have been placed on administrative leave immediately, Salt Lake City Mayor Jackie Biskupski said in a list of frequently asked questions she presented to the City Council on Tuesday. The department’s decision to delay the move until Sept. 1, the day after Wubbels and her attorney released the footage of the arrest, was ”regrettable,” Biskupski said.

Source

a reply to: SheeplFlavoredAgain

Oddly enough you've made me respect and treasure some police even more.

How right you are.

I got called out Thursday night on a case. Mainly just to collect evidence. After the interview I made the decision on what evidence to collect. The detective asked me about my evidence collection, and I explained to him my reason for collecting what I was collecting. He said that he agreed with me, and he was glad he was working with me, because he hadn't given thought to some of the things I had mentioned, and he sees how they could have a huge impact on the case.

He was one of the best detectives I have worked with for a while. Most of the detectives, and even the road patrol are good officers. Some are special. This detective appeared strong, in control, willing to listen, able to communicate with authority, while still remaining open to the ideas and the concerns of others. He had a warm smile, and he exuded patience.

There are a lot of really good police officers out there, and we can't forget that. We live in a society that erroneously wants to lump all people with similar characteristics into the same group, it is a huge mistake we make. Yet we continue to repeat it. But, we have to address the problem officer. I think we do a disservice to all police officers when we ignore the weeds among the lilies. Left unchecked, they will choke the life out of all the bunch, and it doesn't take long for the weeds to wreck havoc on a garden.