It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The only people who want Socialism are people who don't produce

page: 6
24
<< 3  4  5    7  8  9 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:47 PM
link   

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: introvert



cap·i·tal·ism
ˈkapədlˌizəm/
noun
an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.


Literal definition from Google.

M-Webster


Definition of capitalism : an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market


Notice how private ownership is part of the definition?



Correct. The real question is...who owns what?

Do you own it, or do you own the debt to pay back those that really own it?

In the US, we own the debt.




posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:48 PM
link   
a reply to: Hazardous1408

Obviously we've reached a point where none of you can coherently hold a position.

Later!!!!

Good luck!



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:50 PM
link   

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: Hazardous1408

Obviously we've reached a point where none of you can coherently hold a position.

Later!!!!

Good luck!


Of course.

The rest of us must be the problem.




posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:52 PM
link   

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: Hazardous1408

Obviously we've reached a point where none of you can coherently hold a position.

Later!!!!

Good luck!



Picks up ball and goes home......



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:54 PM
link   
What does OP produce again?



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:55 PM
link   

originally posted by: toysforadults
This is my theory and you will not talk me out of it.


Oh...ok.

I don't agree, but ok.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:58 PM
link   
a reply to: introvert

If you pay taxes on it, you don't it. The TV i have, I own. This house? If I don't pay taxes, then it gets confiscated by the local government.

They own it, you just rent.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 09:00 PM
link   
a reply to: cenpuppie

This is my point, we don't have capitalism.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 09:00 PM
link   
a reply to: toysforadults

Your thread title is literally "The only people who want Socialism are people who don't produce", not "The only people who want Socialism are people who don't own the right to reap the rewards of the things they produce". And the 2nd sentence in your OP is "My assertion is that *nearly* only the people who don't produce are the ones who want a socialist or quasi socialist society."

Someone can buy the rights to reap the rewards of the production of something without ever producing a single thing. In fact, that happens all the time when people or companies buy patents & copyrights, then license the actual production of those things to others. So your own words don't make sense when the people who actually produce the goods are the ones wanting socialism, yet the people who don't actually produce a single thing are the ones opposing socialism.

You even claimed that "Socialism is the antithesis to private property or in other words, owning what you produce". This simply isn't true because socialism allows for private property. Europe has a lot of socialist countries & socialist policies yet people still own private property there. Much of Latin America has a popular concept called "Christian Socialism", yet it still allows for private property. And much of the Arab world follows the ideology called "Arab Socialism" yet, you guessed it, they also allow for private property. And China obviously allows private property, otherwise they wouldn't have such a booming middle class or so many millionaires and billionaires.

I wasn't originally going to touch that point because I figured people understood the difference between "workers owning the means of production" & "private property" (since most private property has nothing to do with the means of production). But since you're trying to ignore your own words in the title & OP, I feel I need to remind you of them.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 09:02 PM
link   
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Uhhh, there is a lot more to the thread than the thread title. Feel free to continue to discuss the thread title.

Europe has quasi-socialism meaning they still have private property rights although like poster above point out to an extent. The only reason they can have any form of socialism is due to the fact that they have a productive form of capitalism that acts as the backbone of their social programs.

I recommend reading more on political theory.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 09:03 PM
link   
a reply to: enlightenedservant

China GDP: 11.2 trillion USD
USA GDP: 18.57 trillion USD

China Population: 1.379 billion
USA Population: 323.1 million

China GDP per capita: 8,121.83 USD per citizen
USA GDP per capita: 57,474.47 USD per citizen

USA GDP per capita is 7.1X magnitude of China

And if China has that many millionaires, don't even try to talk about redistribution.

I'll take the USA, thanks.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 09:06 PM
link   

originally posted by: Teikiatsu
a reply to: enlightenedservant

China GDP: 11.2 trillion USD
USA GDP: 18.57 trillion USD

China Population: 1.379 billion
USA Population: 323.1 million

China GDP per capita: 8,121.83 USD per citizen
USA GDP per capita: 57,474.47 USD per citizen

USA GDP per capita is 7.1X magnitude of China

And if China has that many millionaires, don't even try to talk about redistribution.

I'll take the USA, thanks.


Wanna compare Debts?

Thought not...

How about who the Debt is owed to...


You'll probably not wanna do that either...



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 09:07 PM
link   
a reply to: toysforadults




Who benefits from what China produces? That's really the issue.


Now you are backtracking and moving the goal post at the same time. Nice trick!
edit on 29-8-2017 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 09:07 PM
link   

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: Teikiatsu

It won't stop until it crashes. There is too much money, not enough anti trust and too much corp to govt- govt to corp jobs/govt positions.

It is sick and to just say capitalism is good-socalism is bad is a simplistic view that is a black and white outlook in a gray world.


Capitalism is not a government framework, it is an economic philosophy.

Socialism both is a government structure and economic philosophy.

You can't compare the merits and flaws of the two against each other.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 09:10 PM
link   
a reply to: Teikiatsu

Well technically our form of capitalism has to act as a governmental philosophy as it guarantee's rights. The other takes them away.

I mean whoever has fought to have rights taken away?



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 09:11 PM
link   

originally posted by: Hazardous1408

originally posted by: Teikiatsu
a reply to: enlightenedservant

China GDP: 11.2 trillion USD
USA GDP: 18.57 trillion USD

China Population: 1.379 billion
USA Population: 323.1 million

China GDP per capita: 8,121.83 USD per citizen
USA GDP per capita: 57,474.47 USD per citizen

USA GDP per capita is 7.1X magnitude of China

And if China has that many millionaires, don't even try to talk about redistribution.

I'll take the USA, thanks.


Wanna compare Debts?

Thought not...

How about who the Debt is owed to...


You'll probably not wanna do that either...



The stupidity of the US politicians is not the discussion. But just so you know, China doesn't own as much of the US debt as most people think.


The U.S. debt to China is $1.102 trillion, as of May 2017. That's 28 percent of the $3.9 trillion in Treasury bills, notes, and bonds held by foreign countries. The rest of the $19.8 trillion national debt is owned by either the American people or by the U.S. government itself.


www.thebalance.com...



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 09:14 PM
link   
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Again , most of the reasons China is where they are is the major corps of the US moved all (or most) production to China. Why you may ask ? The cheap , slave labor of your "socialist" design



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 09:15 PM
link   
a reply to: toysforadults

This is whole premise is completely incorrect.

We have nothing like socialism.

We have an oligarchy. It's basically neo feudalism.

Legal Journeyman carpenters get 15-20 an hour, that doesn't get you sht. If you have kids. They produce. They also like health insurance when they get hurt at work and a decent public school.

So people are also pissed about the consolidation of wealth through subversive means like through constant lobbying for legislature that benefits the corporation lobbying and they get it.

The socialism part is a complete illusion because the oligarchs have to give the people something or they will stop producing all their wealth for them.

The US want socialist policies here and there because the inflation cpi issue has destroyed wages and the ability to compete globally. Print and spend congress on both sides has created an inflation situation where we use cheap goods to keep the dollar spending power good. But housing and some domestic products can't be produced by slave labor, so they bring in Mexicans for Co structure and agriculture.

It's a mess but it ain't anything like socialism or communism.
edit on 29-8-2017 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 09:16 PM
link   
a reply to: luthier

Ok, I am willing to entertain that argument.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 09:18 PM
link   

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: Teikiatsu

Well technically our form of capitalism has to act as a governmental philosophy as it guarantee's rights. The other takes them away.

I mean whoever has fought to have rights taken away?


Then you need to define what "Our form of Capitalism" that you're talking about actually is. We have to be using the terms in the same understanding.

Capitalism in economics is about markets. Government is about more than just markets.




top topics



 
24
<< 3  4  5    7  8  9 >>

log in

join