It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The only people who want Socialism are people who don't produce

page: 4
24
<< 1  2  3    5  6  7 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:19 PM
link   

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: toysforadults

Doesn't China's existence contradict your theory? China is the largest manufacturing economy in the world and leads the world in the production of steel, solar power, cotton, IPO's (initial public offerings), tobacco, automobiles, beer, coal, and high-technology exports (HERE). Yet China is officially a communist country & is run by the Communist Party of China.

Socialism involves the workers owning the means of production. How on Earth does that fit with your theory that "only non-producers want socialism" when socialism and communism literally target the workers who actually produce everything? You know why the hammer & the sickle were chosen as the symbol right? The hammer represents the factory workers and the sickle represents the farmers/agricultural workers. Those people are the actual producers of the goods, not the wealthy bankers who finance the companies that employ the actual producers.


Good points. The world is constantly changing. We all need to be careful about where we get info from, the rich have a slant, the poor have a slant and the middle class have a slant. Oh let's not forget the corps, they have a slant and a huge lobby.




posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:20 PM
link   
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Maybe we should start with what you think is fascism.


So a dictatorship. Anything else we want to be incredibly vague about?


The actual qualities of fascism are appalling similar to America and are compared all the time.

This is a fact, and you live under a rock to deny it.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:21 PM
link   
a reply to: CreationBro

The problem is big government and the centralization of everything. Laws are passed and corporate bureaucracy prevent competition in the marketplace giving power to Wall Street.

Also the stock market works in such a way that very few people are able to acquire more and more and more power.

It's a multi faceted issue facilitate mostly by government, the ones everyone who is pro socialist thinks are going to solve the problem,the ones not producing anything are going to solve your problems by taking from the ones who do.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:22 PM
link   
a reply to: enlightenedservant




Doesn't China's existence contradict your theory? China is the largest manufacturing economy in the world and leads the world in the production of steel, solar power, cotton, IPO's (initial public offerings), tobacco, automobiles, beer, coal, and high-technology exports

Thats due to the fact the US moved most all of their companies of said products to China
Socialism is an economic type - production is owned by the State.
Communism is a government type - the State controls everything.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:22 PM
link   
a reply to: seasonal

The only reasons corporation can lobby politics is due to the fact that the government has control, control that they maintain by taking all of your property.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:22 PM
link   

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: CarlsBad




Concluding this means Fascism is Good


At what point in the constitution or in the free market does Fascism take place?



When everything is privately owned by a single entity.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:23 PM
link   

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: CreationBro

The problem is big government and the centralization of everything. Laws are passed and corporate bureaucracy prevent competition in the marketplace giving power to Wall Street.

Also the stock market works in such a way that very few people are able to acquire more and more and more power.

It's a multi faceted issue facilitate mostly by government, the ones everyone who is pro socialist thinks are going to solve the problem,the ones not producing anything are going to solve your problems by taking from the ones who do.



QFT.

Nicely put, superb.




posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:24 PM
link   
a reply to: mOjOm

Sherman Antitrust Act

I believe this is because of John D Rockefeller acquiring to much power.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:24 PM
link   
a reply to: toysforadults



This is my theory and you will not talk me out of it.


So we've established you are closed-minded.

Ok.



My assertion is that *nearly* only the people who don't produce are the ones who want a socialist or quasi socialist society.


And you admit your theory has holes in it.

Ok.



Right now what we have in this economy is not capitalism. We have a quasi-socialist democracy and not a functioning constitutional republic which is why we are where we are.


Indeed. We have a constitutional republic that incorporates both economic models, if decided by the people or it's leaders. If you wanted pure capitalism, a republic is not your best option.



If we want to live within a proper capitalistic society as our society was designed to work (based on the ideas of freedom and liberty) and this is UNDIENIABLE as it is all over the writings of all the founding fathers, the Federalist papers and is found everywhere in the bill of rights and constitution we need to hold these ideas above all else.


Capitalism serves very little purpose, other than to enrich the monopolies.

I don't want to live in that society.



The government taxing you and taking your property to give it to someone else, or taxing you and taking the profit from what you produce is actually anti-American and it goes against the ideas of freedom. It's everything we fought the British to get away from and is the key element to a successful society where everyone has ample opportunity and incentive to be successful.


We fought against the British to get out from under their capitalist rule.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:25 PM
link   

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: Teikiatsu

Let's not ignore the fact that taxes for super duper wealthy are at a historically low point.




So what?



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:26 PM
link   

originally posted by: CarlsBad
a reply to: Teikiatsu

Reverse logic. You forgot pepe.jpg


You a countering the reality of a failed government of a nation rich in natural resources... with a meme?



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:27 PM
link   
a reply to: toysforadults

Well we are headed to a oligarchy. And not changing with the facts are as dangerous as equating people who need help as lazy or taking advantage of the "system".

We have very wealthy who game the system and the poor who also game the system. We need a flexible system that can respond to the current mess, perhaps better than bank bailouts and no prison time.




16 Giant Corporations That Have Basically Stopped Paying Taxes -- While Also Cutting Jobs!
www.alternet.org...



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:27 PM
link   
I produce and quite a bit. I've worked for decades, I even own my own business and work with non profits. My wife works. Together, in our toughest weeks we can put in 160 hrs between us of work. We buy houses, cars, motorcycles etc. We don't get nothing for free.

I don't want direct socialism. I want some social programs. We already have them in the US, but they benefit big Oil companies, big pharmacutical companies, big health care companies, the military industrial complex, big auto manufacturers, etc. We spend billions every year out of our tax money to pay their salaries.

the things we have the help those less forturnate are broken and bloated.

So when you here someone who likes Bernie Sanders or who wants some programs like they have in Norway or Iceland, it's not cause they're freeloaders who love Nazis or whatever your fantasy is telling you.

It's people, like me, who are tired of their tax money going to big corporations and lawyers and wall street bankers like Ted Cruz and his wife.

We want single payer healthcare. We almost have it with our broken medicare/medicaid system. etc.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:28 PM
link   
a reply to: Teikiatsu

No, it's that your statements are such low quality, they deserve memes.

The noun "you" in that sentence suggests that it is in fact "you" that is posting the meme, not a counter argument.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:28 PM
link   

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Yeah they produce the goods and live in deplorable conditions.

Do you plan on moving to the wonderful state of China anytime soon?


1. So you agree that the most productive country filled with socialists & communists? Doesn't that alone disprove your theory?

2. China's middle class has more people than the US's entire population. And by 2022, their middle class is projected to reach more than 550 million people (HERE). China also has the 6th most millionaires on the planet (HERE) and the 2nd most billionaires on the planet, only after the US (HERE). And remember, this is under communism which still forces large amounts of wealth redistribution.

So maybe you should update your stereotype of China before making statements like that? Because I've seen a lot of stats about the good ole USA that show most people here barely have any emergency funds, barely have any savings, live check to check, etc.

3. Who said anything about moving anywhere? lol I'm a taxpayer, a voter, and a law abiding citizen here. This is just as much my country as it is yours. Plus, the fact that you couldn't refute anything I said & instead resorted to "but they suck so just move there, hmph" seems like you're conceding here.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:28 PM
link   
Here is the problem with socialism in a nutshell using a ridiculously simple example to illustrate.

Five guys get together to game every Saturday. They all chip in a few dollars toward a large pizza and share out the results. It's cheaper for everyone and everyone gets some dinner. Everyone wins, and this is what most people think of socialism as.

But ... one Saturday, one of the five shows up and says, "Guys, it's not working out for me. I've just brought enough cash to order myself Chinese instead. You guys always get pepperoni and mushroom, and it's really my least favorite and I'm getting tired of it." In a sane world, everyone agrees to this solution. Four guys pay a bit more and the fifth orders his own Chinese and pays a lot more.

But in a world with government-mandated social programs, you get what's called the "social contract." In that world, the government steps in a tells the fifth guy, it doesn't matter if he wants to eat the pizza or not. He made a "social contract" to help buy supper, so he can order Chinese for himself all he wants, but only after he still chips in his pizza money. The four guys never pay any more for their pizza, and the fifth guy ends up paying both for pizza he neither wants nor will eat AND for his own supper at the same time.

Socialize enough at a few dollars here and few dollars there, and people end up paying for a lot of things they neither need nor want nor will ever use but still have to pay for because ... "social contract" and they have no money left over to pay for the things they do want, can use, and actually might need to improve their individual lives and unique circumstances.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:29 PM
link   
a reply to: introvert

Besides the fact that you tried to discredit my argument, not based on fact but by discrediting me, we didn't escape capitalism we escaped the monarchy.

Anybody who made it through grade school should know that.

Otherwise you have addressed no other issues point by point in a concise manner other than drawing false equivalencies. This makes it impossible for me to debate you because you've actually not given an argument.




Capitalism serves very little purpose, other than to enrich the monopolies.


Actually, capitalism establishes our right to own what we produce. I don't want to lose that right.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:29 PM
link   
a reply to: seasonal

Welcome to cronyism. We can all agree that is bad and needs to stop.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:31 PM
link   
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Being more productive is meaningless if you can't reap the benefits of your production.

You don't understand the position you are taking.

My point is that we get to reap the benefits of what we produce and that doesn't happen in China (although it is moving in that direction because what they are doing really sucks for their people).

My argument has nothing to do with who produces the most my argument has more to do with who has the right to reap the reward from what they produce.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 08:34 PM
link   
a reply to: toysforadults

Do you agree that other industrialized countries have a more robust health care system that performs better than the US at a better cost?



new topics

top topics



 
24
<< 1  2  3    5  6  7 >>

log in

join