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The only people who want Socialism are people who don't produce

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posted on Aug, 31 2017 @ 10:33 AM
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originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: seasonal

FDR was pretty much the one who set the tone for the next century. It mostly began with him and the crash of the big banks.

www.garynorth.com...



Franklin Roosevelt's Big Bank Bailout: March 6, 1933


Gold confiscation.

Also...

Social security act of 1935

FDR new deal

FDR was the worst president in the history of the US.


Don't forget the magical year of 1913 and our boy Wilson who signed it all into play. I'd argue it all started from this year!

(Federal Reserve Act)




posted on Aug, 31 2017 @ 10:56 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: KeithCooper
a reply to: Jubilation T Cornpone

Love how you uber capitalists always pick out the singular failure as the overall exemplar, ignoring the majority of successes....using your tactics lets look at the biggest capitalist failures such as the UNITED STATES in the late 20's prior to all those protective regulatory socialist banking and business regulations, programs and legislation. Capitalism left to it's own produced the worst economic disaster of the lastthree generations....and was only turned around by heavy handed SOCIALIST programs and policies. So much for your littke thought bubble. POP.


It was entry into world war 2 and its subsequent end that ended the Great Depression. Pop!


Not really true, but even if it was what was it about entry into WW2 that boosted the economy if not increased government spending.


Hotly debated even today. But don't forget it was the cuts to government spending immediately after the war that preceded some of America's most prosperous years. What is clear is that the Marxist interpretation doesn't have any impact outside of socialist circles.


Well government spending dropped from war time levels but remained higher than pre war.

It also increased throughout the period your are refering (when governments used more active economic policies).

None of that is a Marxist interpretation


If government spending decreases while employment and the GDP increases, I do not see how government spending has much to do with either. It seems more like the market self-corrected, something Hoover and Roosevelt's interventionism never allowed to happen.


Hoover was a Fiscal conservative who pursued mainly pro cyclical policies.

The effects of the great depression didn't begin to alleviate until FDR did (the still insufficient) New Deal policies.

How did the market correction work out in the previous great depression?

Also important to point out no one (sane) is arguing that increasing government spending is always the correct answer. Economic policy (fiscal & monetary) should be in response to reality not dogma.


In the last analysis, Hoover was quite the interventionalist, even progressive. (Hoover's economic policies)

I'm not aware of what happened in the previous Great Depression. But I am aware of the Japanese recession, where the numerous government stimulus attempts only hindered getting out of it.


That is an article from a libertarian think tank so not exactly without bias and hardly the last analysis.

In fairness the article itself also mentions that hoover increased taxation (pro cyclical policy).

The argument isn't that Hoover did nothing it's that he did the wrong thing. Increasing taxes, attempting to reduce deficit, contractory monetary policy, and inadequate protection of banks.

In fairness a lot of that was down more to his cabinet and Congress than the man himself.

Even with FDR much of what he did was too little, too late or too short term.

If you argue that it was WW2 that ended the depression properly then you have to acknowledge that it was stimulus from government spending that did it.

It is also important that much of the GDP generated during ww2 did little to benefit standard of living. Eisenhower was certainly right about the economic waste of spending on armaments.



posted on Aug, 31 2017 @ 11:33 AM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope

It wasn't a question about the type of person you are. It was about that particular situation.



posted on Aug, 31 2017 @ 11:37 AM
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a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

That was my point. Stop calling for real capitalism when crony-capitalism, maybe even fascism, is what made america great.

ETA: Also, according to those who have lived it, the same system is what operates in socialist countries.


edit on 31-8-2017 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 31 2017 @ 11:45 AM
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a reply to: ScepticScot

Argument and analysis should be considered on its merit, not on who writes it or where it comes from.

I do acknowledge that, but I also said it was the subsequent end of world war 2, the end of government spending and the return of workers to the private work force, that ended the Great Depression. I also conceded it was hotly debated, and given I am not an economist, I could be absolutely wrong. Since neither are established fact and still under debate, all arguments need to be heard.

I mentioned the failure of the Japanese stimulus to pull Japan out of its recession. But the opposite could be argued of the 2008 American recession.

Given that even economists cannot agree, it is likely the issue is far more complicated than anyone could imagine.



posted on Aug, 31 2017 @ 11:47 AM
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a reply to: daskakik




It wasn't a question about the type of person you are. It was about that particular situation.


Then I do not know the answer.



posted on Aug, 31 2017 @ 11:48 AM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope

No problem. It was rhetorical.



posted on Aug, 31 2017 @ 11:51 AM
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Give me a one-handed Economist. All my economists say 'on hand...', then 'but on the other...

- Harry Truman

'The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.'

John K Galbraith



I think we can agree economics is not an exact science.



posted on Aug, 31 2017 @ 11:54 AM
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a reply to: ScepticScot

Ha. Great quotes.



posted on Aug, 31 2017 @ 04:12 PM
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If you hate socialism so much, then get rid of christianity. The entire christian bible says you should give yourself up to god. And let god take care of you. Sounds stunningly similar to socialism. Letting someone else take care of you.

Otherwise socialism will continue to consume north America.

The spread of the christian word is ultimately your enemy. And seeing that religion is not taxable you have yourself quite a conundrum. The christian "faith" (religion) is what breeds socialism.



posted on Aug, 31 2017 @ 04:52 PM
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a reply to: GiulXainx

I never considered that aspect of Christianity. I think you might have something there. Lately I've been thinking that "love one another" that I believed as a child is bs. Only fear seems to manifest something we call love.



posted on Aug, 31 2017 @ 07:09 PM
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a reply to: GiulXainx

There are also several powerful Christian-backed ideologies called "Christian Socialism", "Liberation Theology", and the Social Gospel. All of these embrace various aspects of socialism because of various biblical teachings.

My point is that there are plenty of modern examples of Christian groups & organizations who accept and even promote socialism. But we tend to forget that the US was the major pro-capitalism force during the Cold War against the global communist movement. So of course people here will equate Marxism, communism, & socialism with "bad guys/evil/enemies". A 44-ish year public and military campaign against all things Marxist is going to have that affect on people, even when socialism's concepts are largely compatible with their stated religion.



posted on Aug, 31 2017 @ 07:26 PM
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When I was at College a friend of mine was always calling people in a expensive car or anything else a Rich C..t ,another had just read Karl Marxs book and then sat there in the bar spouting off about Communism to everyone as the solution to all the worlds problems ,I just ignored him ,most of the people who want Socialism are just spoilt brat students [who want everything immediately] ,and have envy towards others who have worked hard and for years, for what they have and are paying it off.They want to overthrow and destroy everything, out of sour grapes and envy ,if they cant have it ! then they want no one to have it ,failing that ,they will pursue some other Manic Cause ,animal rights ,gay rights ,racism,feminism and a society that ''should'' give all these whining brats everything they want free of charge, because mummy and daddy gave them everything for free, and they don't want to grow up and stand on there own two feet like adults.



posted on Aug, 31 2017 @ 07:31 PM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant

Socialists throught the world, however, for instance in USSR and China, we're actively anti-Christian and religion in general. I guess the irony was beyond them.



posted on Aug, 31 2017 @ 07:58 PM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope

That's because communism doesn't accept religions. But socialism does, hence my numerous examples. Or are we going to pretend not to know the differences in socialism and communism?
edit on 31-8-2017 by enlightenedservant because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 31 2017 @ 08:14 PM
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most of the people who want Socialism are just spoilt brat students


No, many, many adults support it at least partially, because they are honest enough to see that capitalism is corrupt, destructive, and oppressive, not to mention unsustainable.



posted on Aug, 31 2017 @ 08:30 PM
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After Nazi Germany's attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, Joseph Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church to intensify patriotic support for the war effort. On September 4, 1943, Metropolitans Sergius (Stragorodsky), Alexius (Simansky) and Nicholas (Yarushevich) were officially received by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin. They received a permission to convene a council on September 8, 1943, that elected Sergius Patriarch of Moscow and all Rus'. A new patriarch was elected, theological schools were opened, and thousands of churches began to function. The Moscow Theological Academy and Seminary which had been closed since 1918 was re-opened.





By 1987 the number of functioning churches in the Soviet Union stood at 6893 and the number of functioning monasteries to 18.[34]

Citizens of the USSR were permitted to form religious societies for their religious needs if at least 20 believers reached the age of 18. Believers who composed an association performed religious rites, organized meetings for prayer, and other purposes connected to worship. They hired ministers and other persons to meet their needs, collected voluntary contributions in houses of worship for the support of their property. The Government granted the free use of houses of worship and other publicly owned property of the USSR. Russian Orthodox priests were trained at theological academies and seminaries[33]




Then, beginning in the late 1980s, under Mikhail Gorbachev, the new political and social freedoms resulted in many church buildings being returned to the church, to be restored by local parishioners. A pivotal point in the history of the Russian Orthodox Church came in 1988 with the 1000th anniversary of the Baptism of Kievan Rus': Throughout the summer of that year, major government-supported celebrations took place in Moscow and other cities. The 1988 Local Council of the Russian Orthodox Church met in Zagorsk; many older churches and some monasteries were reopened. An implicit ban on religious propaganda on state TV was finally lifted. For the first time in the history of Soviet Union, people could see live transmissions of church services on television.


Russian Orthodox Church - Wiki



posted on Sep, 1 2017 @ 04:40 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: ScepticScot

Argument and analysis should be considered on its merit, not on who writes it or where it comes from.

I do acknowledge that, but I also said it was the subsequent end of world war 2, the end of government spending and the return of workers to the private work force, that ended the Great Depression. I also conceded it was hotly debated, and given I am not an economist, I could be absolutely wrong. Since neither are established fact and still under debate, all arguments need to be heard.

I mentioned the failure of the Japanese stimulus to pull Japan out of its recession. But the opposite could be argued of the 2008 American recession.

Given that even economists cannot agree, it is likely the issue is far more complicated than anyone could imagine.



Great post and great example is The IMF causing the 1997 Asian Financial Crisis and why those same nations, predominatly China have set out to destory the US financial system in revenge (debt bond buying of trillion of US % etc...)

It also happens to us, the general public - I'm not sure if you heard of the UK biafra or Live Aid (big concert against the starvation and genocide in Africa) - while people did raise millions in 'aid' for these countries - what happened in reality was it was used in arms and genocide that killed even more people than the orginal charity aims were meant to prevent.

Or in Afghanistan in the 1950s, where a rich countrty, where women created most of the wealth through afghan rugs, were miniskirts and had ladies fashion magazines - The US namely Buckminster fuller tried to make Kabul - Megacity One - a country based on science to save the people from the evils ofdoviet communism - the fighting we now witness with al qu'idea, ISIS and similar is actually occuring in the collapsed rememnents of the failed venture.

Not trying to claim these were conspiratorial actions, just demonstrating how people who had only pure and good intentions accidentally created a far worse outcome because no one really understands enough to know what's going on.

We compleley failed to help anyone, we contributed to far more bloodshed and destabalisatioin. But we did get to see a pop concert and think we were helping save the world, and that made us feel good about ourselves.


edit on 1-9-2017 by bastion because: (no reason given)


ETA: This documentary does give a good insight - as it it if full of interviews and admissions by those responsible.

The Trap What Happened To Our Dream Of Freedom # You Buddy Episode 1

---
n this episode, Curtis examines the rise of game theory used during
the Cold War and the way in which its mathematical models of human
behavior filtered into economic thought.

The program traces the development of game theory with particular
reference to the work of John Nash (famous from "Beautiful Mind"), who
believed that all humans were inherently suspicious and selfish
creatures that strategized constantly. Using this as his first premise,
Nash constructed logically consistent and mathematically verifiable
models, for which he won the Nobel Prize in Economics. He invented
system games reflecting his beliefs about human behavior, including one
called "So Long Sucker---F*ck Your Buddy", in which the only way to win
was to betray your playing partner, and it is from this game that the
episode's title is taken. These games were internally coherent and
worked correctly as long as the players obeyed the ground rules that
they should behave selfishly and try to outwit their opponents, but when
RAND's analysts tried the games on their own secretaries, they instead
chose not to betray each other, but to cooperate every time. This did
not, in the eyes of the analysts, discredit the models, but instead
proved that the secretaries were unfit subjects.

What was not known at the time was that Nash was suffering from
paranoid schizophrenia. Footage of an older and wiser Nash was shown in which
he acknowledges that his paranoid views of other people at the time were
false.
--------------

archive.org...
edit on 1-9-2017 by bastion because: (no reason given)


www.youtube.com...


edit on 1-9-2017 by bastion because: (no reason given)


www.youtube.com...

‘YOU ARE THE CENTRE OF EVERYTHING’ flashes up repeatedly on the screens bigger and bigger, louder and louder. This new system loves you, understands you and gives you what it knows you want and nothing will ever change. Here the dead live with us, immortalised in glass they still dance and they won’t let us go. And to us, this uncanny unsubstantiated world is just as convincing as the real, and for them everything is going according to plan. ‘If you like this then you will love this’ has become our mantra. Curtis cuts up and strings together Donald and Ivana Trump, Nicolai and Elena Ceausescu, Jane Fonda and Ted Turner, Hamid Kazir and his brothers, everyone in Goldman Sachs who made a killing in 2008, the neutron bomb, the Siberian punk movement, Bambi and all your own worst fears… to tell the same story: they say to us ‘don’t bother with the future’, stay here with us forever. At one point the text started moving so fast I kept missing lines or words but it didn’t seem to matter, I had seen it all before. We have become desperate archeologists Curtis said. How depressing.
edit on 1-9-2017 by bastion because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 1 2017 @ 04:51 AM
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originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

That was my point. Stop calling for real capitalism when crony-capitalism, maybe even fascism, is what made america great.

ETA: Also, according to those who have lived it, the same system is what operates in socialist countries.


Excerpt that crony capitalism hasn't made it great. Nor did any corporate fascism.



posted on Sep, 1 2017 @ 02:00 PM
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a reply to: dreamingawake

What do you call a system of big money buying political favors?

Look up the whiskey rebellion and see how the big distillation companies weighed in on legislation from the very start.




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