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Antifa, openly anti capitalist = openly anti American

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posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 12:15 PM
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Of course, we know what we mean when we say "anti-Capitalist" anarchy is the negation of authority, of the submissive mind and it's' spook' and phantasms, and of the economy




posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 12:15 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66




Only if you squint at history and claim that the medieval guilds were the source of trade unions.

Make a specific argument with backup, or you're just continuing to sputter your opinion which has been demonstrated to be false.


My argument that working conditions improved under capitalism, as opposed to socialist and communist theory, still stands, untouched by your half-baked refutation.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 12:30 PM
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originally posted by: TheTory
a reply to: Gryphon66




Only if you squint at history and claim that the medieval guilds were the source of trade unions.

Make a specific argument with backup, or you're just continuing to sputter your opinion which has been demonstrated to be false.


My argument that working conditions improved under capitalism, as opposed to socialist and communist theory, still stands, untouched by your half-baked refutation.


You haven't made an argument, you made a statement.

Arguments require proof.

Aside from that, all your posts have shown today is fairly significant arrogant ignorance.

But sure, blame me for that. Par for the course.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 12:36 PM
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a reply to: TheTory

Fair enough.



In no way does that mean trade unions are socialist in nature.


One could argue with that, depends on how you look at it. The free and rich merchant cities of the past might've been the first ones to call themselves republics, but they didn't invent trade leagues either.
Coorporation and compassion are pretty old fellas, but I'm not sure that political concepts of the forelast industrialisation are supposed to be applied this way.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 01:25 PM
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originally posted by: luthier
Learning how to deal with defeat and almost winning is the most valuable lesson I have ever given kids. It either makes them motivated or realize they aren't the best and it's OK.


I see football the same way...no excuses...



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 01:45 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66



You haven't made an argument, you made a statement.

Arguments require proof.

Aside from that, all your posts have shown today is fairly significant arrogant ignorance.

But sure, blame me for that. Par for the course.


It's common knowledge and sense, but the fact that working conditions today is better than they were a decade ago, as was t5he working conditions of that decade better than it was a decade before that, and so on throughout the history of capitalism, is sufficient enough to prove that you lack even a modicum of common sense. Par for the course.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 01:55 PM
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originally posted by: TheTory
a reply to: Gryphon66



You haven't made an argument, you made a statement.

Arguments require proof.

Aside from that, all your posts have shown today is fairly significant arrogant ignorance.

But sure, blame me for that. Par for the course.


It's common knowledge and sense, but the fact that working conditions today is better than they were a decade ago, as was t5he working conditions of that decade better than it was a decade before that, and so on throughout the history of capitalism, is sufficient enough to prove that you lack even a modicum of common sense. Par for the course.


Appeal to "common sense" now? And did you mention moving the goal posts? When did we start talking about the last decade? Or the one before that.

You were blatantly mistaken about the USSR, Marxism, socialism and trade unions. Now you're doing NOTHING except pointless appeals to the authority of "common sense" which is not specifically not common in this case.

You're trying to champion "capitalism" when you're obviously either ignorant of or ignoring known facts.

So ... show us how the trade union developed without socialism, communism, and worker's parties.

Show us how it is in the interest of greater profits to the owners of capital (factory owners, etc.) to support those groups that are negotiating against them on behalf of their workers.

I'll be glad to look at some actual fact. I don't need to hear bleating repetitions.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 02:01 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

Are working conditions better in capitalist countries than they were a decade ago? a century ago? Yes or no? Why yes they are. Therefor conditions improved under capitalism. Use whatever gymnastics it takes to wriggle out of that one, but the fact remains.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 02:16 PM
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a reply to: TheTory

The only reason you can have a half social/capitalist system is becase the socialist part of the system leeches off the capitalism part of the system.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 02:21 PM
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a reply to: toysforadults



The only reason you can have a half social/capitalist system is becase the socialist part of the system leeches off the capitalism part of the system.


Yes state intrusion, welfare, and higher taxes, seek to erode capitalism.

"The pruning knife of taxation is a very important instrument. With it the workers’ state will be able to clip the young plant of capitalism, lest it thrive too luxuriously." - Trotsky

Nonetheless capitalism is resilient and will not fall into socialism via those means.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 02:23 PM
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originally posted by: TheTory
a reply to: Gryphon66

Are working conditions better in capitalist countries than they were a decade ago? a century ago? Yes or no? Why yes they are. Therefor conditions improved under capitalism. Use whatever gymnastics it takes to wriggle out of that one, but the fact remains.


Keep moving those goalposts. Keep answering your own rhetorical questions.

There's no gymnastics required to show your ignorant comments about trade unions, Marxism and so forth ... here, should I remind you?


originally posted by: TheTory

I wasn't aware they had trade unions in communist or socialist countries. Kidding, they don't. Trade unions are capitalist, smart guy.


Which has been shown to be ludicrous ... so you keep trying to reframe your argument.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 02:30 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

I already conceded that point, which was only secondary to my initial argument.

Recall your reply to my initial argument:



Even the least knowledge of of history would reveal that the "conditions of workers" got better in large party due to the efforts of workers' parties and trade unions in the early 20th century.

Capitalism, which prefers the greatest profit for the least number of individuals no matter the cost to workers, brought child labor, slave wages and horrible working conditions.


Then you tried to pass off trade unions as somehow socialist. That was false.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 02:48 PM
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a reply to: TheTory

Your argument was clear. You were mistaken.

You're still desperately trying to ignore the historical facts of improvements in working conditions and workers benefits.

Let's name some, shall we?

How about a 40 hour work week? How about requiring employers to maintain basic safety in the work place?

How about paid vacations? Sick leave?

How about an end to child labor?

Why don't you show these benefits and their sources rather than whining?



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 02:54 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66


Your argument was clear. You were mistaken.

You're still desperately trying to ignore the historical facts of improvements in working conditions and workers benefits.

Let's name some, shall we?

How about a 40 hour work week? How about requiring employers to maintain basic safety in the work place?

How about paid vacations? Sick leave?

How about an end to child labor?

Why don't you show these benefits and their sources rather than whining?


What about them? I am well aware many of them were advocated for by trade unions. But that's only half of the story. The reforms were implemented by the employers, for instance Henry Ford, and not trade unions. There is no need to pretend begging and pleading lead to better working conditions when actual people were implementing it.

Try that in, say, Venezuela. You get killed.

In Venezuela, Rise of Labour Unions Turns Deadly
edit on 29-8-2017 by TheTory because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 03:11 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

Trade unions wereally started when the industrial revolution started. Had nothing to do with any form of govt. Though the first to use it as a means of control was Carl Marx.Marx attached considerable importance to the role and functions of the trade unions. Marx points out how capital is concentrated social power, while the worker has only his individual labour power at his disposal. He saw labor unions as a way to stop this disparity. Stain goes a step further and uses labor unions to promote socialism in Austria for example.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 03:22 PM
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originally posted by: TheTory
a reply to: Gryphon66

Are working conditions better in capitalist countries than they were a decade ago? a century ago? Yes or no? Why yes they are. Therefor conditions improved under capitalism. Use whatever gymnastics it takes to wriggle out of that one, but the fact remains.


Hi I'm from reality, or should I say Preston UK the home of unions, democracy fueled on social justice and free education available to all - we kind of founded your country and one of your forefathers nicked our motto but sadly the US got lost along the way but we're true to the roots.

In a union/socialism stand against enforced capitalist slavery delivered to childrens heads from the barrell of gun for asking the government to obey the constitution and offer at least something for spending up to 18 hours a day, risking lies and losing limbs a little bit more thanjust enough food to stay alive.
- 3000 workers, mostly children were being used as slaves and walked out to demand an honest wage for honest pay, the capitalist christists sent the millitary and police in and shot them for having a peaceful protest - you may have heard our motto, one of your founding fathers pinched it "Never without sacrifice have gains been made towards justice and democracy".

Through Unionism/Social Democracy we achieved workers rights, fairer pay, the end of child and human slavery we achieved the democracy, end to child slavery, workers rights and many more despite a few hundred losing their lives.
Our union/social stand against free market capitalism has immortally attributed the words.
"Never without sacrifice have gains been made towards justice and democracy"

So no. You're wrong, you have social, trade unionist eight or nine year old kids to thank for having any working rights, wage, living standards, democracy and justice thanks our part.

Again - when will people actually try and learn something instead of spouting falsehoods such as the belief either or political ideology is inherently flawed or flawless. You're all spouting a load of rubbish that has no basis in reality because you don't really know your history or your politcs. Every one of them has failed (the rot in the US started when computers were introduced to make choices on behalf of people, but the ideals of the nation were corrupted to fit into binary programable language so you've been on the path to destruction ever since.

So why not try something new instead of repeating the same old mistakes for once?


edit on 29-8-2017 by bastion because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 03:32 PM
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a reply to: TheTory

Then, discuss some actual examples of these improvements for workers that were initiated by employers (capitalists) and not the workers themselves.

Don't insult anyone's intelligence by trying to move the goalposts yet again from the subject we were discussing and your claim.

(And if you are going to try it, don't misrepresent the facts in your own source




Trade union activists are being murdered at an alarming rate — 75 in the past two years — as new unions vie with traditional unions for power and control. Some union chiefs say government meddling in the unions is stirring the violence.

----

The murder remains unresolved. Diaz says he doesn't know why his brother was killed.

But he says that a renegade union had been trying to oust his brother's established union in the paper-making company where he worked.


So, even in Venezuela there are established trade unions ... and the violence you're pointing to rises from the establishment of new unions.

Today really isn't your day.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 03:58 PM
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a reply to: bastion

Advocacy is one thing, implementing reforms is another. One is talking, some may say whining, the other is actual action. Rather than start your own companies, implement your own standards and conditions, you had to beg. That makes you a beggar.

By definition, trade unions negotiate with employers, but it isn't the trade unions that have the final say of how a company should run itself. What you're spouting is socialist tripe.
edit on 29-8-2017 by TheTory because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 04:02 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66




Then, discuss some actual examples of these improvements for workers that were initiated by employers (capitalists) and not the workers themselves.

Don't insult anyone's intelligence by trying to move the goalposts yet again from the subject we were discussing and your claim.


Henry ford and the 5-day, 40-hour work week, for example. he did it to increase production, not to capitulate to trade unions, which he was wholly against.



posted on Aug, 29 2017 @ 04:08 PM
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originally posted by: TheTory
a reply to: Gryphon66




Then, discuss some actual examples of these improvements for workers that were initiated by employers (capitalists) and not the workers themselves.

Don't insult anyone's intelligence by trying to move the goalposts yet again from the subject we were discussing and your claim.


Henry ford and the 5-day, 40-hour work week, for example. he did it to increase production, not to capitulate to trade unions, which he was wholly against.




The issue came to a head in 1884, after the Federation of Organized Trades and Labor Unions -- a predecessor of today’s AFL-CIO -- called for all workers to have eight-hour days by May 1, 1886. When that deadline wasn’t met, labor leaders upped the ante by calling for demonstrations. In Chicago, peaceful marches morphed into violence, with an explosion marring a rally at Haymarket Square on May 4, 1886, leaving seven police officers and four workers dead. Subsequent trials, executions and clemencies for the accused made the eight-hour week a top issue nationally and internationally.

All of this occurred decades before Ford founded his company in 1903.


Source

Maybe you can tell us how you can divide 40 by 5 and not get 8?

(Also, while Ford did establish an 8-hour work shift, many of his employees still worked 6 days a week.)
edit on 29-8-2017 by Gryphon66 because: Noteed




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