If you aren't on the cryptocurrency train then you're about to get left at the station

originally posted by: stormcell

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Alien Abduct

originally posted by: ManFromEurope
To me, this is a pyramid scheme. Cryptocurrency is only of value if enough people believe that it has value. So every believer in her/his currency wants to have more followers so the currency gains more value.

I do not believe. It is a typical "get rich quick without effort" thing. How many of those, in your personal experience, have ever worked?

You don't seem to know much at all about bitcoin. It takes computing power to decrypt (mine) the bitcoins. A LOT of computing. Which means a LOT of electricity. That alone gives bitcoin a base value. Your statement is actually kinda funny. In what ways is crypto currency the same as a pyramid scheme?

How does using electricity give bitcoin value?

I have used electricity to type this post. Do you think that gives this post value?

To "mine" bitcoins, you are basically are looking for 250 million needles in a haystack of 1.158 x 10^77 bales of hay. No different from trying to find gold coins in the center of the Atlantic simply by swimming around. A desktop PC can try a few million every second. GPU's can go into a few thousand million every second. Some people who do "random" hash attempts with a PC are lucky to find one bitcoin after several months.

Because they are hard to find, and that they can be exchanged for some items, that gives them value.

Nope the mining does nothing to give them value. Scarcity or difficulty obtaing does not give something value.

I have just doodled a picture of a duck wearing a cowboy hat. It is very rare (probably unique) and as I am about to throw it is a bin pretty difficult to get. However as I have no artistic ability and I am not famous it has pretty much zero value.

What gives bitcoin value is simply that people are willing to accept it in the belief that they in turn will be able to pass it on. In other words the greater fool theory of value.

As bitcoin has no inherent value and is not a liability on anyone else the there is nothing maintaining that value other than people's continued belief that the next person in the chain will accept it.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: ScepticScot

The value of Bitcoin is of course determined only partially by how much it costs miners to generate coins, any free market will have speculators which cause the price to fluctuate away from the electrical cost of mining Bitcoins. If people find that Bitcoin has a lot of utility they will demand it and push the price up, for instance if they require the ability to send and receive money anywhere in the world with very little fees.

Many things in this world have a value based on how difficult they are to create. The cost of oil goes up as it gets harder to find and access, deep sea oil rigs require a lot of time and energy so the final cost of the oil is not the same as the cost of oil which is easily extracted. People used to carve huge stones into flat disks with a hole through the center and used those as currency because they were so hard to make.

Oil isn't experience because it is difficult to extract. It is expensive because of the difficulty to extract relative to the demand for it.

If the internal combustion engine or plastic hadn't been invented then it wouldn't matter how difficult it was to extract it would still be pretty worthless.

If you have two oil fields, either of which can meet all the demand for oil, the price would not be determined by the one with the higher cost but the one with the lower.

Same with digital currencies. If the demand for electronic currency can be met at close to zero cost (Which it can). Then what is the long term need to use the deliberately more expensive one?

a reply to: ScepticScot

What gives bitcoin value is simply that people are willing to accept it in the belief that they in turn will be able to pass it on.

You keep ignoring the utility of Bitcoin. Fiat currencies are typically very slow and have high fees when making international transactions, you never have complete control over your own money and your accounts can easily be frozen, you cannot easily donate to organizations such as Wikileaks, and it's generally time consuming to set up a bank account whereas a new Bitcoin address can be generated in seconds. Bitcoin also doesn't ask you to trust any central authority to do the right thing and create the right amount of money, it just asks you to trust mathematics and the rules of the protocol.

As bitcoin has no inherent value and is not a liability on anyone else the there is nothing maintaining that value other than people's continued belief that the next person in the chain will accept it.

Exactly like any debt based fiat currency. The simple fact is Bitcoin cannot be classified as a Ponzi/Pyramid Scheme according to the definition of such schemes:

Bitcoin does not fit the definition of Ponzi scheme for various reasons:

* There are no paid dividends to any investors.
* The purpose of using bitcoin isn’t to recruit new participants.
* There’s no centralized body that funnels money up to the top.
* Unlike Ponzi schemes, Bitcoin will still have value and continue to function even if no new participants join the ecosystem.

Why Bitcoin Isn’t a Ponzi Scheme

a reply to: ScepticScot

The cost of oil has and will continue to slowly rise as we suck up most of the easy-to-access reserves and are left with only very hard-to-access reserves. And when we start reaching the point where we cannot extract enough to meet demand, which will happen within the next 50-100 years, the price will really start to skyrocket as scarcity increases relative to demand. That's of course assuming we still have such a high dependency on oil by then and it still has a very high utility value.

Then what is the long term need to use the deliberately more expensive one?

This is not even a logical question, it's like saying we shouldn't buy some stocks because others are less expensive, if you buy the more expensive stock you just get less of it, the real value is still the same.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: ScepticScot

What gives bitcoin value is simply that people are willing to accept it in the belief that they in turn will be able to pass it on.

You keep ignoring the utility of Bitcoin. Fiat currencies are typically very slow and have high fees when making international transactions, you never have complete control over your own money and your accounts can easily be frozen, you cannot easily donate to organizations such as Wikileaks, and it's generally time consuming to set up a bank account whereas a new Bitcoin address can be generated in seconds. Bitcoin also doesn't ask you to trust any central authority to do the right thing and create the right amount of money, it just asks you to trust mathematics and the rules of the protocol.

As bitcoin has no inherent value and is not a liability on anyone else the there is nothing maintaining that value other than people's continued belief that the next person in the chain will accept it.

Exactly like any debt based fiat currency. The simple fact is Bitcoin cannot be classified as a Ponzi/Pyramid Scheme according to the definition of such schemes:

Bitcoin does not fit the definition of Ponzi scheme for various reasons:

* There are no paid dividends to any investors.
* The purpose of using bitcoin isn’t to recruit new participants.
* There’s no centralized body that funnels money up to the top.
* Unlike Ponzi schemes, Bitcoin will still have value and continue to function even if no new participants join the ecosystem.

Why Bitcoin Isn’t a Ponzi Scheme

I accept (and stated in earlier post) that bitcoin has its uses but I believe they are overrated and often outweighed by its drawbacks.

The advantages you have listed for bitcoin are all fairly niche or overstated.

For day to day use conventional currrency has a number of advantages (chargebacks, fraud protection and a lender of last resort to name a few).

You are not closing between a central authority and mathematics. You are choosing between a central authority and random chance. Some people may prefer chance I suspect the majority won't.

The fact that conventional currrency is debt backed is entirely the point. It isa liability at the end of the chain that gives it value. In the case of national currencies the government will always accept its own currency. This drives and maintains value in a way that crypto currencies lack.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: ScepticScot

The cost of oil has and will continue to slowly rise as we suck up most of the easy-to-access reserves and are left with only very hard-to-access reserves. And when we start reaching the point where we cannot extract enough to meet demand, which will happen within the next 50-100 years, the price will really start to skyrocket as scarcity increases relative to demand. That's of course assuming we still have such a high dependency on oil by then and it still has a very high utility value.

Then what is the long term need to use the deliberately more expensive one?

This is not even a logical question, it's like saying we shouldn't buy some stocks because others are less expensive, if you buy the more expensive stock you just get less of it, the real value is still the same.

Yes because the demand for oil will outpace our ability to supply it. We can infinitly provide a medium fir digital payment.

Stocks are not like bitcoin as they confer part ownership rights over a company. Bitcoin gives you ownership over nothing but the bitcoin.

a reply to: Missmissie173

This concept is difficult for me to understand.

Buy low sell high.

Pick your crypto currency, and there are LOTS to choose from.

Bitcoin forked just recently instead of one a person got two.

Crypto forking is another way people make money off it.

Some folks invest for the long term.

Some folks invest for the short term.

I am currently holding.

Bitcoin.

Bitcoin cash.

Dash.

LiteCoin

Xrp (Ripple)

Ethereum

Rep

Doge

LOTS to choose from.

Diversify.

DIVERSIFY!

Many here have tried telling people but most arent believing it yet. Yes mining bitcoin is no longer viable for the average joe. Mining alts is though. Regardless - 'mining' does not happen at all with new cryptos. It is all ICO's and proof of stake after that. Think of it as being payed dividends for your stocks. And its only a 15% tax rate even in the US if you hold for over a year.

You can buy anything with crypto in Europe and there is little to no taxes. Yes most cryptos will die out in the end but several will remain becoming the new Visa, Paypal, etc etc.

I already made 400 dollars today buying LTC early in the morning and selling it two hours later. I used to make great money but with Obama's regulations that all changed. I sure wish I would have known about trading cryptos earlier because I could be sitting pretty good if I would have traded earlier.

When the governments end, the internet crashes, cell phones quit working, no one will have viable currency. Not even gold can be used. The currency then will be bullets, weapons, things to survive with. People need to be self sustaining rugged individualists. Or die...

I love the amount of skeptics.

Keep it up and scare more people away from mining or the currency as a whole. More Bitcoins for me!

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder

originally posted by: EternalShadow
Cashless society is a COMPLETELY controlled society.

EVERY SINGLE TRANSACTION WOULD BE TRACKED! Even the five bucks you lent your pal the other day.

It's amazing to me that people are on board with this crap. Technology isn't the cure all for EVERYTHING!

There is such a thing as anonymous cryptocoins. Even Bitcoin is anonymous to some degree even though every transaction is recorded on the blockchain, they still don't know who made those transactions without knowing who owns what addresses.

Are you daft? Tell what's anonymous about the internet without going dark web??? Even that's hackable.

You are so in love with tech you got blinders on my friend. Be honest with yourself.

You might ride the bubble, but your trading it for cash anyway.

Never ride bubbles with anything other than disposable play money.

a reply to: Kuroodo

The only value is given by the group. Similar to cash, but the group for cash is uge.

A few computer nerds is not a stable enough group size.

Always be alert when buzzwords are used like "the train is getting ready, It's going to be huge, it will be lucrative" etc...

At this point it is just users trying to push up purchases of bitcoin.

What goes around, comes around! If you think the TPTB will let cryptocurrency exist without their hand in it, think again.

Your Bitcoin is NOT Anonymous: IRS Moves To Track Bitcoiners With New Chain Analysis Tools

Because every transaction exists on a public blockchain ledger, an enterprising organization – say like the NSA or IRS – could conceivably implement blockchain analysis tools to track down Bitcoin fund transfers around the globe. These days most bitcoin transactions are originated on “trusted” exchanges that exist in Western nations, where governments have always found new and innovative ways to ensure citizens have no privacy whatsoever, especially when it comes to personal finances. This means that there is more than likely a record of your original Bitcoin transaction, perhaps involving a credit card or bank transfer, and if regulators ask an exchange to turn over the information you can bet they’ll do so in order to avoid unwanted government scrutiny. Moreover, most exchanges now require a driver’s license, passport and even a phone number in order to approve your account for trading.

Bummer... that $400 you made today when you bought and sold it better be declared to the feds lest you end up with a tax evasion charge.

I really don't think cryptocurrency is ready for prime time. There are too many loose ends. When banks were created, a lot people didn't trust them and kept cash stuffed in their mattress. I'm that way with crypto. If the Internet goes down, I'm without currency. Too risky. If the IRS is getting into the game, it's even less lucrative.

cryptocurrency is useless if something happens and you have no access to it

a reply to: coldkidc


Bit currency is about as imaginary and tangible as a Federal Reserve Note. With the exception a FRN has a tangible value that you can hold in your hand. Both worthless, as in backed by nothing.


I honestly see this mania towards cryptocurrency as a telling lead of an EMP attack. What good will cryptocurrency hold if the power grid is out?

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: Lab4Us

uhhh anyone who is holding bitcoin right now is getting rich not taken

Which is exactly how bubbles work right up till they burst.

Must be new.

People have been saying bubbles for over 5 years now. When will this bubble burst, do tell?

Personally, in my short stint, I made over $700aud just mining feathercoin in the few months I left my pc on overnight. a mere satoshi of a btc.

but I got out when my gpu died. est quod est.

Now, go back to your "it's a scam" rhetoric.. it's funny.

"Scarcity or difficulty obtaing does not give something value."..........ever heard of gold? a reply to: ScepticScot