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Preserving Confederate Statues Isn’t Like Preserving Auschwitz

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posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:21 PM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Gryphon66

Where did I claim I wanted to interfere? All i said was anything protected by law needs to be left alone. For everything else people need to educate themselves / others before taking an action.

If they have been having meetings for 2 years then that tells me they have not come to a majority opinion in one direction or the other.

Aside from identity politics coming into play now why was this not an issue when our President was black?


Well, you certainly implied that all these statues were covered under Federal law and that's not exactly true is it?

The people in these places have made their wishes known to their governments.

Again, a "majority opinion" is not required ... we are a Republic, not a democracy. Right?

ETA: Oh, you were doing so well. Leave the Obama herring out of it for once.
edit on 26-8-2017 by Gryphon66 because: Noted




posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:21 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66




Actually if anything, I said that by your words and actions created false equivalencies and doing everything you could to deny the facts of what happened in Charlottesville, you were acting as a Nazi apologist. But that's not this thread is it?


Perfect example of a false equivalency.

thanks for showin us.



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:23 PM
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originally posted by: MotherMayEye
a reply to: Gryphon66

If I didn't agree...I found some tortured way to not blame the party/Democratic politicians and blame it on Republicans, instead.

I admit it. I did.

Hillary said GWB sat down with her and looked her in the eyes and told her that there were WMD. So she believed him and voted for war. And I let that be enough to absolve her and blame Republicans.

I don't think voters in either party really support most of the sh*tty policies the party leaders push. They just find tortured ways to deflect the responsibility onto the *other* party or advisors.


I can appreciate all of that.

But your comment here today is what I wanted to address. You said, without hesitation, and with some apparent passion, that the Democratic party created the Confederacy.

How?



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:24 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Xcathdra

I don't usually watch Youtube videos as they are usually a waste of time.

Are you "Yepping" to my question to you or to MotherMayEye?


Yes sir i am. Democrats are responsible for slavery, the confederacy, the KKK and the civil war.


LOL. Can you give us a few sentence to back up your claim?

For example ... slavery in the New World began in what ... 1619?

The Democratic Party was not founded until ... what ... 1828?


Hence the 6 minute video I linked.


Right, and Youtube videos are not reliable sources.

How about a sentence then. If you hold that opinion so strongly, surely you can articulate it, right?


This particular video is narrated by a black woman who is a professor of poli sci/law at Vanderbilt though. No doubt it comes from a conservative media group, but it's not like you are watching Joe Blow in his parents' basement.

Worth watching, IMO. I appreciated the 6 min. history lesson from a Vanderbilt professor.


edit on 8/26/2017 by MotherMayEye because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:24 PM
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originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: Gryphon66




Actually if anything, I said that by your words and actions created false equivalencies and doing everything you could to deny the facts of what happened in Charlottesville, you were acting as a Nazi apologist. But that's not this thread is it?


Perfect example of a false equivalency.

thanks for showin us.


Now you're just parroting.

To summarize: you don't have any examples of anyone here who have discounted American's deaths in war, and you have no evidence to support the ridiculous claim that public property, i.e. these statues, are free speech acts protected by the First Amendment.

Thanks.



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:26 PM
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originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Xcathdra

I don't usually watch Youtube videos as they are usually a waste of time.

Are you "Yepping" to my question to you or to MotherMayEye?


Yes sir i am. Democrats are responsible for slavery, the confederacy, the KKK and the civil war.


LOL. Can you give us a few sentence to back up your claim?

For example ... slavery in the New World began in what ... 1619?

The Democratic Party was not founded until ... what ... 1828?


Hence the 6 minute video I linked.


Right, and Youtube videos are not reliable sources.

How about a sentence then. If you hold that opinion so strongly, surely you can articulate it, right?


This particular video is narrated by a black woman who is a professor of poli sci/law at Vanderbilt though. No doubt it comes from a conservative media group, but it's not like you are watching Joe Blow in his parents' basement.

Worth watching, IMO. I appreciated the 6 min. history lesson from a Vanderbilt professor.



I love Vandy (and Nashville.)

Again though ... I want to know why YOU spoke so passionately about the Democratic party creating the Confederacy.

If you don't want to answer, that's fine, just say so. I was interested in your point-of-view.



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:26 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66




Now you're just parroting.


Nope.

That would be like going around calling people nazi sympathizers like this comment.




Actually if anything, I said that by your words and actions created false equivalencies and doing everything you could to deny the facts of what happened in Charlottesville, you were acting as a Nazi apologist. But that's not this thread is it?

edit on 26-8-2017 by neo96 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:27 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
a reply to: Gryphon66

If I didn't agree...I found some tortured way to not blame the party/Democratic politicians and blame it on Republicans, instead.

I admit it. I did.

Hillary said GWB sat down with her and looked her in the eyes and told her that there were WMD. So she believed him and voted for war. And I let that be enough to absolve her and blame Republicans.

I don't think voters in either party really support most of the sh*tty policies the party leaders push. They just find tortured ways to deflect the responsibility onto the *other* party or advisors.


I can appreciate all of that.

But your comment here today is what I wanted to address. You said, without hesitation, and with some apparent passion, that the Democratic party created the Confederacy.

How?


How did they not?

The party was pretty much exclusively behind the South seceding from the Union after Lincoln was elected.



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:28 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
Well, you certainly implied that all these statues were covered under Federal law and that's not exactly true is it?

My personal opinion is they need to remain, regardless of it being local state or Federal. They are present for a reason and serve as a reminder of our history. We shouldnt hide our history simply because we dont like what occurred during it.



originally posted by: Gryphon66
The people in these places have made their wishes known to their governments.

Not all and in some of these places statues are being ripped down by people who arent even citizens of the areas in question.



originally posted by: Gryphon66
Again, a "majority opinion" is not required ... we are a Republic, not a democracy. Right?

At the local level it depends on how their government is set up and what requires public input and a public vote in order for the city to act.



originally posted by: Gryphon66
ETA: Oh, you were doing so well. Leave the Obama herring out of it for once.

In this case and on this topic it is a valid question. If these statues are so reprehensible what made them ok for the 8 years a black man was president.

Action now and not then screams of a false moral outrage designed to serve someones agenda based on identity politics. Dont destroy history just so you can link it politically to the current president.



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:31 PM
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a reply to: neo96

First of all, do you understand the grammatical construction that begins with "if"?

Second, do you understand that an apologist is someone who tries to justify someone or something else.

A sympathizer believes the same things as someone else.

Can you quote me stating that you are a Nazi sympathizer?

Also, can you tell me how public property is a free speech act protected by the FIrst Amendment?



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:35 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

In rough order of your presentation:

I accept that is your opinion. In some cases, It is not the opinion of the people who own the statues.

You're generalizing. I can argue specifically about specific places. In Charlottesville, the citizens have made their opinions known to their officials.

Oh come on. You're going to quibble about a republic versus a democracy now? Fine. Give examples of the cities, towns, and States that conduct their governments by a public forum of the body of the citizens where majority rules.

No, it's not a valid question ... it's an attempt to muddy the water. The people of Charlottesville and across the nation have been considering removing these statues long before Trump became President. Next?
edit on 26-8-2017 by Gryphon66 because: Noted



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:35 PM
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originally posted by: neo96

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: neo96


If someone actually bothered to read those sources.


If you had, you would've noticed his name is Paul Goodloe McIntire. I mean you even quoted sections with his actual name in them but you keep misnaming him. Lol


Did I not link it ?

DID I NOT ?


You did, which is why it's so amusing that you get so worked up into a caps lock rage you can't even speak intelligently about your own links.



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:39 PM
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a reply to: MotherMayEye

In deference to you, I watched the video. I can't agree with her most basic premises.

The States themselves decided to secede. Again ... you don't want to talk about the collective of a State but you're willing to collectively blame the Democratic party? I'm really confused.

Further, until it became expedient to do so, Lincoln was not a supporter of equality for Blacks. The Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves in the states of the Confederacy, in hopes that they would mount a rebellion against the Southern states. He's on the record as believing that Blacks are inferior to Whites. (I can provide citations if needed.)
edit on 26-8-2017 by Gryphon66 because: Noted



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:41 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66Also, can you tell me how public property is a free speech act protected by the First Amendment?


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Weird, I know, but hey, we can both trot out convenient examples to back up whatever claim suits our confirmation bias.



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:44 PM
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a reply to: Sublimecraft

You're tagging in for Neo now? Thank goodness.

So ... you quoted the First to me and provided me with a cute cartoon. Awesome.

Does the First Amendment protect the statues that are located on public lands and are the property of various towns, cities, counties and States?



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:46 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: MotherMayEye

In deference to you, I watched the video. I can't agree with her most basic premises.

The States themselves decided to secede. Again ... you don't want to talk about the collective of a State but you're willing to collectively blame the Democratic party? I'm really confused.

Further, until it became expedient to do so, Lincoln was not a supporter of equality for Blacks. The Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves in the states of the Confederacy, in hopes that they would mount a rebellion against the Southern states. He's on the record as believing that Blacks are inferior to Whites. (I can provide citations if needed.)


Every person who lives in a certain state (or region) does not share the same ideology. People in the same political party do though. If they don't, then they leave the party.

If I don't share the same ideology as the 'collective' in my state, I am not moving so that I can no longer share the same ideology.

I am sure that Lincoln was not perfect. But that's not an argument I am trying to make anyway.



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:47 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Sublimecraft

Does the First Amendment protect the statues that are located on public lands and are the property of various towns, cities, counties and States?



The 1st amendment protects civilians from government overreach - simple. You know that. It does not protect civilians from consequential effect resultant from orating opinions that others find offensive. You also know that. It does not apply to inanimate objects - just the humans. You also know that.



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:50 PM
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originally posted by: Sublimecraft

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Sublimecraft

Does the First Amendment protect the statues that are located on public lands and are the property of various towns, cities, counties and States?



The 1st amendment protects civilians from government overreach - simple. You know that. It does not protect civilians from consequential effect resultant from orating opinions that others find offensive. You also know that. It does not apply to inanimate objects - just the humans. You also know that.


"Overreach" huh? That's pretty general and vague. And you know that.

You're telling me a lot that you think I know. Now tell me what you know.

Does the First Amendment protect the presence of government property on government lands as a free speech act as claimed by another and supported by you ... or not?



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 07:54 PM
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a reply to: MotherMayEye

Sorry, I can't accept that everyone in a political party agrees 100% with the party platform or they leave it. That's absolutist and illogical to me.

I've been a Democrat off and on for some time (I'm currently registered as Independent, or at least, I'm registering myself that way) and I've NEVER agreed with everything the Dems say. Usually, not even a lot of it sometimes. But more than with the Republicans. I don't think I'm that atypical.

No, but this anti-Democrat argument usually goes hand in hand with the idea that the Republican party is the party of Civil Rights.

Again, I've seen no evidence that the Democratic party created the Confederacy, in fact, I see a great amount of evidence to the contrary. Further, the idea that the Democratic party founded the KKK is about as ill-founded. But all that's really not on topic here. Perhaps another time.

Thank you for a level-headed conversation, MME. As usual.

edit on 26-8-2017 by Gryphon66 because: Noted

edit on 26-8-2017 by Gryphon66 because: Noted



posted on Aug, 26 2017 @ 08:52 PM
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originally posted by: neo96

originally posted by: neo96


Early in November 2016, the Blue Ribbon Commission voted 6–3 to let both statues remain in place.[7] On November 28, 2016, itvoted 7–2 to remove the Lee statue to McIntire Park in Charlottesville and 8–1 to keep the Stonewall Jackson statue in place,[8] delivering a final report with that recommendation to Charlottesville City Council in December.[9]


Fascism takes only a few 'intellectual' elite.

7 to be exact.

en.wikipedia.org...


49,000 people didn't get a say.

But it's what the people 'wanted' !!!

en.wikipedia.org...


For those that missed it the first time.

GOVERNMENT OVER REACH.

The population of Charlottesville wasn't even asked.

49,000 residents.







 
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