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Has the 2nd ammendment been taken away in Oregon?

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posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:29 PM
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a reply to: SudoNim

My source is an interview keepandbeararms did with an acknowledged expert. Even if playboy interviews him, what he says is still valid. Nice try since you can't refute anything he says, just whine about who interviewed him.




posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:29 PM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6

So you won't answer my question?

You feel a law is unjust so you condone shooting law enforcement officers? You are the enemy in this scenario, you do realise that.

Hide behind your out-dated constitution all you like, the times are changing either catch up with the modern world or get left behind to rot.



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:30 PM
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a reply to: face23785

Where am I leaving exactly?

So you are happy with amendments, lets amend the right to own guns back to what it was before the NRA got involved shall we?



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:31 PM
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a reply to: SudoNim




I don't really give a f##k if its unconstitutional, times have changed.


...and with that, there's nothing more to say. To call that statement foolish is an understatement. It's actually rather stupid.

You've nothing further to say that is worth listening to, or reading.



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:32 PM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6

I'm arguing it since you like to keep your head in the sand about it.

"But but but the constitution..." wake up and think for yourself for once.



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:33 PM
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originally posted by: SudoNim

originally posted by: face23785
a reply to: SudoNim

There's no data to support that, in fact the data suggest the exact opposite. More lives are saved every year than are taken by guns.


No data to support what?

Please show your data then. How can you quantify lives saved by guns? Pure BS.


Lives saved by guns have been quantified through numerous studies. The lowball estimates are around 500,000 defensive uses per year. Now some anti-gun nuts have accepted that lowball number and tried to talk it down by saying that only around 30% of them actually involved discharging the weapon, in the other situations they merely had to brandish the weapon to scare off the attacker. Granted, there's no way to tell whether those incidents would've resulted in a death. However, 30% of 500K is 150,000 people. Now since it's illegal to discharge your weapon at another person unless you're in mortal danger, and we haven't heard about 10s of thousands of gun owners being convicted of illegal use of their weapon, the vast majority of those cases were obviously lawful use of the gun in defense of their life. There's around 8-9K gun murders in the US every year. That's a lot lower number.

You're welcome.



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:34 PM
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a reply to: face23785

Acknowledged expert... acknowledged by who? An expert in what? Economics?

Where is your data, not just an interview.



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:36 PM
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originally posted by: SudoNim
a reply to: face23785

Where am I leaving exactly?

So you are happy with amendments, lets amend the right to own guns back to what it was before the NRA got involved shall we?


You go ahead and push for that amendment if that's what you want to see. Here's how much support you'll need. Good luck. Until then, you're in the wrong here.



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:37 PM
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a reply to: face23785

Post those studies please.
There is a clear number(well as clear as you can get) of deaths caused by firearm. I'm happy to post or source that.

If removing guns won't effect the murder rate because knives and cars are just as effective... why don't you use knives and cars to protect yourself instead of guns?

What am I welcome for? You've done nothing and added nothing.



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:38 PM
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a reply to: face23785

How am I in the wrong? What wrong am I in?

So if it were amended you would happily return/destroy all your guns... because you know its constitutional.
edit on 25-8-2017 by SudoNim because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:40 PM
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originally posted by: face23785
a reply to: kelbtalfenek



Owning a gun does not cause you to decide to commit murder.


I never said that.

In fact the leading gun deaths per 100K is suicide...no one else was killed. And we're not even in the top 10 of gun related deaths worldwide.

Conversely, if one decides to commit murder, it's quite easy to purchase a firearm...legally or illegally. So while one may have the motive and intent, it is very easy to obtain the means.

Criminals that possess firearms illegally will never be eliminated. That's a sad truth. Those who wish to be criminals can obtain guns quite easily. That is also a sad truth. Caught in the middle of this mix...are those law abiding citizens who purchase weapons for home defense, sport shooting, hunting, or for any other reason possible. They won't commit a crime with their weapons, at least the very large majority won't.

So again I ask you...what do we do? Do we disarm those who we know are dangerous? Or do we watch another mass murder on the news? Or do we bury our heads in the sand and say "It won't happen again?"

I don't know the answer, I don't pretend to. On one hand I believe in the letter of the Constitution, on the other hand I've seen the other side where someone I was very close to was shot and killed with a legally owned firearm.

Where is the reasonable compromise between gun rights and gun wrongs?



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:40 PM
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a reply to: SudoNim

You really have no skills with google or wikipedia?

Even studies done by anti-gun nuts purposefully trying to get a low number get 55,000 defensive uses per year.

No matter how low they go, taking 30% of it is still higher than the gun murder rate.
edit on 25 8 17 by face23785 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:44 PM
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originally posted by: kelbtalfenek

originally posted by: face23785
a reply to: kelbtalfenek



Owning a gun does not cause you to decide to commit murder.

And we're not even in the top 10 of gun related deaths worldwide.


This right here is one of the key statistics. We have by far the highest gun ownership rate in the world, but we're not the top gun-related deaths. If they were linked, we would be. That's how statistics work. People like to confuse correlation and causation. For example a certain color car has the highest number of deadly car crashes. That doesn't mean driving that color car has anything to do with whether you crash or not, it's just a correlated statistic. That's different than a cause.



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:48 PM
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a reply to: face23785

From the source that estimated 55,000 defensive users per year.


Yet a careful case-control study of homicide in the home found that a gun in the home was associated with an increased rather than a reduced risk of homicide.



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:48 PM
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originally posted by: SudoNim
a reply to: burdman30ott6

I'm arguing it since you like to keep your head in the sand about it.

"But but but the constitution..." wake up and think for yourself for once.


I think we're having a good discussion here burdman. None of us are acknowledged experts in Constitutional law, but I think we have an opportunity to learn from each other.

You may be right, the Constitution "might" need to be amended...but as a gun owner and a proponent of Constitutional rights, I'm arguing for the "maybe the law in the OP is right" because I want to learn...and I'll never learn by sticking to just one or two talking points.

Granted, I'm sick of all the gun violence in this country, sick of the fact that we have a prison population that is larger than the population of some countries...and sick of a great many things that are wrong with this country. This discussion is a great way to make points, and maybe we can change the world one mind at a time.



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:50 PM
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a reply to: face23785

You don't think gun-ownership and gun-related deaths are linked?



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:52 PM
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originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: kelbtalfenek

originally posted by: face23785
a reply to: kelbtalfenek



Owning a gun does not cause you to decide to commit murder.

And we're not even in the top 10 of gun related deaths worldwide.


This right here is one of the key statistics. We have by far the highest gun ownership rate in the world, but we're not the top gun-related deaths. If they were linked, we would be. That's how statistics work. People like to confuse correlation and causation. For example a certain color car has the highest number of deadly car crashes. That doesn't mean driving that color car has anything to do with whether you crash or not, it's just a correlated statistic. That's different than a cause.


We are #11, don't pat us on the back. (As of 2014.) We are also in a country that isn't at war, run by gangs, or run by warlords/dictators. If we were number 40 or 60, I'd say you have a great case. #11 is like proudly saying "I passed" when you get 61% out of 60% minimum.



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:53 PM
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originally posted by: SudoNim
a reply to: face23785

From the source that estimated 55,000 defensive users per year.


Yet a careful case-control study of homicide in the home found that a gun in the home was associated with an increased rather than a reduced risk of homicide.




Associated is another word for correlated. In other words, it's not the cause. Take a statistics class please, you're ill-equipped to be in this discussion.



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:54 PM
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a reply to: kelbtalfenek

It's not a matter of pride. We have a huge crime problem in this country and gang-violence overwhelmingly drives our "gun violence" problem, aside from suicides. But again, if gun ownership caused the problem, we would be #1. We have more guns per capita than any other country.



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 06:55 PM
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a reply to: face23785

Hemenway D, Solnick SJ. The epidemiology of self-defense gun use: Evidence from the National Crime Victimization Surveys 2007-2011. Preventive Medicine. 2015; 79: 22-27.

www.sciencedirect.com...


Compared to other protective actions, the National Crime Victimization Surveys provide little evidence that self-defense gun use is uniquely beneficial in reducing the likelihood of injury or property loss.


Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah. Gun use in the United States: Results from two national surveys. Injury Prevention. 2000; 6:263-267.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...


Criminal court judges who read the self-reported accounts of the purported self-defense gun use rated a majority as being illegal, even assuming that the respondent had a permit to own and to carry a gun, and that the respondent had described the event honestly from his own perspective.


Azrael, Deborah R; Hemenway, David. In the safety of your own home: Results from a national survey of gun use at home. Social Science and Medicine. 2000; 50:285-91.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...


guns in the home are used more often to frighten intimates than to thwart crime; other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns



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