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Counter-protesters and their Unmitigated Fantasies

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posted on Aug, 24 2017 @ 04:09 PM
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a reply to: amazing



But at the core of what you just said is freedom of speech. If the KKK has a right to speak publicly, I have a right to denounce them as hateful racists. Freedom of speech works both ways.


Of course it works both ways. But this thread is about counter protesting in such a manner as to deprive other people of their rights to free speech and assembly.

There are no absolute freedoms, everything is regulated. Want to counter protest? Get a permit, the people responsible for maintaining law and order will decide if you can counter protest in the same area and time, or whether in the interests of maintaining some semblance of order your counter protest needs to be at a different time or location. Those people responsible for law and order will then answer to the voters for their decision and the rational behind that decision.

Again, trying to intimidate people into leaving an assembly, drowning out their speech with your own and the like, aren't what free speech is about. And I think most people know that. It's just some think that cloaking their attempts to infringe on other groups rights to free speech under free speech is so very clever. So that's their story and they're sticking to it.

It's dishonest, it's lazy and it's short sighted.


edit on 24-8-2017 by imwilliam because: spellin




posted on Aug, 24 2017 @ 05:27 PM
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originally posted by: imwilliam
a reply to: amazing



But at the core of what you just said is freedom of speech. If the KKK has a right to speak publicly, I have a right to denounce them as hateful racists. Freedom of speech works both ways.


Of course it works both ways. But this thread is about counter protesting in such a manner as to deprive other people of their rights to free speech and assembly.

There are no absolute freedoms, everything is regulated. Want to counter protest? Get a permit, the people responsible for maintaining law and order will decide if you can counter protest in the same area and time, or whether in the interests of maintaining some semblance of order your counter protest needs to be at a different time or location. Those people responsible for law and order will then answer to the voters for their decision and the rational behind that decision.

Again, trying to intimidate people into leaving an assembly, drowning out their speech with your own and the like, aren't what free speech is about. And I think most people know that. It's just some think that cloaking their attempts to infringe on other groups rights to free speech under free speech is so very clever. So that's their story and they're sticking to it.

It's dishonest, it's lazy and it's short sighted.



But at the core of this thread and our discussion, it isn't democrats countering republicans or catholics countering methodists or Vegans countering meat eaters... it's normal people countering nazis.

Remember that Nazis aren't just a different world view. They are people that want to exterminate Jews, Homosexuals, gypsies, those with darker skin color, the disabled. And the KKK who find it okay to lynch black people.

That's a little bit different than giving someone the right to free speech. It's countering a dangerous hate group.

Can you see the difference?



posted on Aug, 24 2017 @ 07:06 PM
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a reply to: amazing


Can you see the difference?


I can see the difference between this:



Remember that Nazis aren't just a different world view. They are people that want to exterminate Jews, Homosexuals, gypsies, those with darker skin color, the disabled. And the KKK who find it okay to lynch black people.


And this:



That's a little bit different than giving someone the right to free speech. It's countering a dangerous hate group.


Can you? Conflating, allowing someone to speak their bit as a matter of principle and concern for not setting potentially horrid precedent with allowing people to actually exterminate Jews, homosexuals and so on and so on is a warrantless jump. Something that's become all to common here of late.

Besides, If the only thing preventing this country and it's people from exterminating all the Jews, homosexuals, gypsies and so on and so on is that we haven't heard the NAZI elevator speech enough times, then we've already lost.

Now years ago, maybe even as few as a couple of years ago, I probably would have been on board with you. I mean it's common sense, right? I mean their are limits, certainly freedom of speech, assembly, equal access doesn't apply to degenerates and monsters, you know, like the Klan and Neo Nazis. I would have agreed with you, but things have changed.

The problem now is that over the years, I've watched how different groups have come to define degenerates and monsters. I've seen how they've "rehabilitated" degenerates, turned them into heroes, watch them vilify those who were once thought of as heroes, call those who aspire to purity degenerates. People are fickle

And so much of this rehabilitation, deification, redefinition and vilification goes contrary to my own beliefs, strongly held beliefs, about what I believe to be right/good and wrong/bad. From my perspective there is a great deal of hysterical and spastic thinking going on and I don't see calls to reason calmly and rationally gaining much traction.

Having come to ATS, I've seen what people have written here about groups that I belong to, the charges they've brought against them, against me by extension and I just don't trust any of you to define right and wrong or who the monsters and degenerates are anymore.

I think its' all going to cave in. But I think included in what hope there is that it won't, are some of the principles that this country was founded on, among those being freedom of speech and thought, but only if we diligently practice them in truth.



edit on 24-8-2017 by imwilliam because: fixed broken quote



posted on Aug, 24 2017 @ 08:13 PM
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a reply to: imwilliam

So I guess the related question is would you let ISIS demonstrate and rally? I would equate ISIS and Nazis as the same or equal in Hate. Do they both get a free pass in free speech?



posted on Aug, 25 2017 @ 04:07 PM
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a reply to: amazing



I would equate ISIS and Nazis as the same or equal in Hate.


I won't stipulate to that being the case, you'll have to argue that point before I'll seriously entertain it. I'm not even sure what "equal in hate" ends up meaning or its signifigance. Seems very subjective and wishy washy to me.



So I guess the related question is would you let ISIS demonstrate and rally?


No. But then I don't accept your assertion that the current crop of US Neo Nazis are equivalent to ISIS.

But trying to get closer to what I think your point is:

If someone wants to stand on the corner and advocate that the US should adopt Sharia Law, I think in the current environment, it needs to be permitted. Ditto for any acolytes of the late Elijah Muhammad, should they decide to publically make the case that white people are an evil race created by a black scientist named Yacub 6600 some odd years ago.










edit on 25-8-2017 by imwilliam because: left out a word




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