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Counter-protesters and their Unmitigated Fantasies

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posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 01:36 PM
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And I believe that totalitarianism, if not fought against, could triumph again.

-George Orwell



Life must be exceedingly great for the radical left. It is so good, and they are so far removed from any tyranny and oppression and atrocity, that the only thing left for them to protest is the words and ideas of others, inanimate statues, symbols, and the subsequent feelings they get when confronted by them. After all, there is no time to stand up against actual tyranny when one is preoccupied with his own feelings.

I say this because, as intimated, the only injustice or oppression or totalitarianism I have seen in the streets of privileged countries is committed, en masse, by the illiberal left. No, they do not wear swaztikas; no, they do not espouse the same anti-semitism and race superiority (even if they do so in a round-about way) as their opponents, so they have that minor detail going for them. But there is no less the same illiberal political violence, censorship, dogmatism, and injustice in their wake. I can think of no better way to insult the victims of hatred and tyranny than to adopt the methods and tactics of their oppressors.

But if you accept the unmitigated fantasies of counter-protesters and progressives, they are like those brave souls storming Normandy beach. As for their enemies, roundly called “Nazis” even when there are none, no they are not members of the National Socialist German Worker’s party; they are not committing genocide; they are not implementing any final solution, mass censorship and state propaganda, Enabling Act, nor are they purging the school system of political undesirables for the sake of youth indoctrination; and they are certainly unable to declare any war. After all, these are tyrannies worth fighting against. Indeed, the allies never stormed the beach because of thoughts and expressions and tiki torches, no matter how scary that must have seemed to you, but because of actual tyrannies, provocations, and affronts to democracy and liberalism. Comparing these counter-protesters to the heroes who stormed Normandy beach is an obscenity we shouldn’t allow them to forget.

Rather, they are still in the habit of fearing and fighting against future dystopias rather than learning from the past ones. I mean, after the events of the 20th century, it goes without saying that the majority of respectable human beings do not enjoy the language of hatred and execration, Nazism and racism. In fact such beliefs and expressions are roundly, and rightly, condemned. As Karl Popper pointed out, societies with free speech and unrestrained criticism can learn from their mistakes. The west has learned form its mistakes. Besides the ideas being ugly and offensive they are absurd and superstitious, and on that account, relatively rare. Those who believe them are relative pariahs. On top of that, these beliefs are just that: beliefs. What is, if anything, to fear?

Nothing rational, to be sure. Fearing ideas so ugly and absurd is exactly what they want. It means you take them seriously. A more apt and thus lucrative comparison would be to compare Nazis to Bronies and other laughable obsessions. By God, laughter and ridicule would be a better avenue of approach!

We should be careful of roving bands of political thugs and counter-protesters aiming to heckle and threaten people exercising their rights, than the expressions they are protesting. It isn't befitting a democracy. In free and open societies, which seem to be declining, we counter hateful beliefs and ideas with reason and argument, puncturing them threadbare in the hopes that the person who thinks them eventually sees their folly. Even simple friendship dissolves hatred quicker than multiplying it by more hatred. But given that these ideas and those that espouse them are often countered with censorship, threat and violence instead of reasoned debate, it isn’t only those who sport the ideas and iconography that end up acting like Nazis.

Any people have a right to believe and defend their positions, including the Nazis, white supremacists, and the KKK, and anything otherwise is to flirt with totalitarianism, where thoughts and expressions are relegated to the status of crime. If in some alternate reality the Nazis were to get stronger and seize power, it would because you persecuted them, as was, by Hitler’s own admission, the case the first time around. They have already adopted your identity politics; they will surely adopt your violence.

To beat and clobber and throw piss at those who think and speak certain thoughts is to lose the argument at the outset. It is to prove you do not know how to reasonably refute their ideas and beliefs with ideas and beliefs of your own. You betray not only free speech, liberalism and dialectic, which have replaced violence and coercion as means to gaining power for centuries, but also the victims who have lived and died under such tyranny.

LesMis




posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 01:48 PM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope

S&F; you nailed it again!


We should be careful of roving bands of political thugs and counter-protesters aiming to heckle and threaten people exercising their rights, than the expressions they are protesting. It isn't befitting a democracy. In free and open societies, which seem to be declining, we counter hateful beliefs and ideas with reason and argument, puncturing them threadbare in the hopes that the person who thinks them eventually sees their folly.


Welcome to the age of Identity Politics, because after all, picking sides by skin tone or sexual orientation is so much easier than critical thinking.

In some respects your talent is near wasted here. I really wish you would do a tie-in article about the absurdity of the existentialist movement and the warping of the philosophy of Nietzsche into secular humanism which is the root cause of all this.



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 01:54 PM
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Nearly half a million American lives perished to end the Nazi scourge.

You're not an American so I don't expect you to "get it."


Any people have a right to believe and defend their positions, including the Nazis, white supremacists, and the KKK, and anything otherwise is to flirt with totalitarianism,


If you progressive nutjubs would have your way, we'd all be speaking German at the moment.

Moral crusaders lol. "We should defend Nazism," which is ironic considering your little jab at D-Day (again, you're not American lol).


If in some alternate reality the Nazis were to get stronger and seize power, it would because you persecuted them, as was, by Hitler’s own admission, the case the first time around.


Really?

Someone should've told Hitler and the Third Reich now that they've only become more powerful after their infrastructure bombed and their terrorist-soldiers scalped lol.


We should be careful of roving bands of political thugs and counter-protesters aiming to heckle and threaten people exercising their rights,


Even when it comes to Neo-Nazi's using cars to murder an innocent and injure nineteen more?


A more apt and thus lucrative comparison would be to compare Nazis to Bronies and other laughable obsessions. By God, laughter and ridicule would be a better avenue of approach!


Right, because bronies use discord servers to discuss the legality of killing protestors with their car, bronies attend rallies in other states in order to use a vehicle as a tool to injure/kill others, lol


they are like those brave souls storming Normandy beach.


Brace souls? But I thought we should respect Nazi's freedom?

Huh.


Life must be exceedingly great for the radical left. It is so good, and they are so far removed from any tyranny and oppression and atrocity


Right because Heather Meyers wasn't just murdered by an alt-right Neo-Nazi who other alt-right Neo-Nazi's are defending (Kessler) by saying Heather is a "fat, disgusting, Communist pig."


Nothing rational, to be sure.


That's for sure.

I'm not afraid of any ideologies. That's where all you keep on tripping up.

I'm not afraid of Nazi's nor Nazism. Nazi's and Nazi apologists should be afraid of Americans. Americans should NOT respect a Nazi - we kind of went to war over this and lost our grandfathers fathers whilst doing so.

Where I'm from, Nazi's have no place in society.



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 01:55 PM
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🎯

"to beat clobber and throw piss".

You are a wordsmith of the highest order.


+4 more 
posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 01:58 PM
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a reply to: RomeByFire


WOW!

Seems like someone got so triggered not a damn thing you said made any sense?


Explain in your opinion who is a Nazi?


edit on 22-8-2017 by seeker1963 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 02:00 PM
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originally posted by: seeker1963
a reply to: RomeByFire


WOW!

Seems like someone got so triggered not a damn thing you said made any sense?


Explain in your opinion who is a Nazi?



Uh, probably someone who self-identifies as a Nazi, champ.


+2 more 
posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 02:01 PM
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originally posted by: RomeByFire

originally posted by: seeker1963
a reply to: RomeByFire


WOW!

Seems like someone got so triggered not a damn thing you said made any sense?


Explain in your opinion who is a Nazi?



Uh, probably someone who self-identifies as a Nazi, champ.


So you refuse to answer an easy question? I wonder why?

Because the past few weeks on ATS I seem to recall a whole lot of people being called Nazi's. Also on the MSM and on videos at some of these so called peaceful protests.

In my opinion, it isn't WHO identifies as a NAZI, but those who are so brainwashed to see NAZI'S everywhere and therefore calls anyone who they disagree with a NAZI?




edit on 22-8-2017 by seeker1963 because: (no reason given)

edit on 22-8-2017 by seeker1963 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 02:02 PM
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But at it's face value, with out the violence, is it wrong to counter protest?

I think hate groups are valid reasons to counter protest.

I don't like Nazis...I'd be inclined to counter protest.
I don't like White Supremacists..I'd be inclined to counter protest.
An Isis Rally,...I'd be inclined to counter protest.

A republican rally, a democrat rally, a Green Party rally, a democratic socialist rally, a libertarian rally, a feminist rally, a methodist church rally...not valid reasons to counter protest.

Where it gets into shades of gray would be an Antifa Rally. Not worth my time to counter rally because I don't see a reason for it. I don't equate that with a hate group.

BLM is a bit different also, as it was formed to protest police brutality against black people. We see statistically that in some areas that is a problem. So if you counter protest a BLM march are you saying you are okay with police brutality against minorities?
edit on 22-8-2017 by amazing because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 02:05 PM
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a reply to: RomeByFire




Nearly half a million American lives perished to end the Nazi scourge.

You're not an American so I don't expect you to "get it."


I'm Canadian. We were in that war killing Nazis long before your leaders built up the nads. But you wouldn't get that.



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 02:11 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: RomeByFire




Nearly half a million American lives perished to end the Nazi scourge.

You're not an American so I don't expect you to "get it."


I'm Canadian. We were in that war killing Nazis long before your leaders built up the nads. But you wouldn't get that.


I wasn't alive in the 1940's, and I'm a citizen of a large nation

I don't have any leverage/say when it comes to government matters

But hey - maybe "your leaders," should've respected those Nazi's, right?

And whose to say they're actual Nazi's? I'm regularly told that waving Nazi flags, saying "the Jews will not replace us," and giving the Nazi salute does not make one a Nazi but instead is indicative of me being brainwashed to see anyone/everyone I don't agree with as a Nazi

So let's have some logical consistency here



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 02:14 PM
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a reply to: RomeByFire




I wasn't alive in the 1940's, and I'm a citizen of a large nation

I don't have any leverage/say when it comes to government matters

But hey - maybe "your leaders," should've respected those Nazi's, right?

And whose to say they're actual Nazi's? I'm regularly told that waving Nazi flags, saying "the Jews will not replace us," and giving the Nazi salute does not make one a Nazi but instead is indicative of me being brainwashed to see anyone/everyone I don't agree with as a Nazi

So let's have some logical consistency here


What I'm saying is flag waving and chanting isn't tyranny or oppression by any stretch of the imagination, even imaginations as fevered as yours.



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 02:21 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: RomeByFire




I wasn't alive in the 1940's, and I'm a citizen of a large nation

I don't have any leverage/say when it comes to government matters

But hey - maybe "your leaders," should've respected those Nazi's, right?

And whose to say they're actual Nazi's? I'm regularly told that waving Nazi flags, saying "the Jews will not replace us," and giving the Nazi salute does not make one a Nazi but instead is indicative of me being brainwashed to see anyone/everyone I don't agree with as a Nazi

So let's have some logical consistency here


What I'm saying is flag waving and chanting isn't tyranny or oppression by any stretch of the imagination, even imaginations as fevered as yours.


Where did I claim that its tyranny and/or oppression?

Don't worry, I'll wait you to cite specifically where I said that - because I didn't.

What I've said is that I don't believe Nazi's should be or have protected free speech.

What's being debated is whether or not they're actual Nazi's so I used them using flags, salutes, etc to show they are Nazi's.

Now my words are being twisted to show that waving flags and salutes are oppressive - which I've never once claimed, nor could be claimed by anyone else, even one as pompous and ignorant as yourself.



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 02:22 PM
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a reply to: RomeByFire




Nearly half a million American lives perished to end the Nazi scourge.


In the early to mid forties.

But guess what there ?

There was scant difference between the 'good' guy FDR and Hitler.

Japanese interment camps. Confiscation of their property. Moved on to other peoples property (Gold and silver).

There was a complete merger between the state and corporations(which people called FASCISM).

Forced rationing( Good luck getting anyone to make sacrficies to day and do without STUFF).

It's the year 2017.

The nazis were defeated.

And by more than just 'Muricans.



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 02:25 PM
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originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: RomeByFire




Nearly half a million American lives perished to end the Nazi scourge.


In the early to mid forties.

But guess what there ?

There was scant difference between the 'good' guy FDR and Hitler.

Japanese interment camps. Confiscation of their property. Moved on to other peoples property (Gold and silver).

There was a complete merger between the state and corporations(which people called FASCISM).

Forced rationing( Good luck getting anyone to make sacrficies to day and do without STUFF).

It's the year 2017.

The nazis were defeated.

And by more than just 'Muricans.


If you think for a second I support FDR you're cornier than squirrel poo



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 02:27 PM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Do you want stars and flags?

Because this is how you get stars and flags.

I am extremely impressed. I have nothing to add, nor have I nothing to argue against, for you have completely nailed down what is going on. If I ever meet you, i'll buy you a drink.

Now if only more people would wake up and realize the same sentiment, the country would be a much more peaceful place.



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 02:27 PM
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a reply to: RomeByFire

I find it hard to support those whining bout nazis, and russians because the nazis weren't defeated without the Russians.



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 02:32 PM
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a reply to: neo96

Scant difference between FDR & Hitler?

Really?



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 02:35 PM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: neo96

Scant difference between FDR & Hitler?

Really?



Yeah really.

The only difference between the two is FDR didn't have gas chambers.



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 02:42 PM
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originally posted by: RomeByFire

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: RomeByFire




I wasn't alive in the 1940's, and I'm a citizen of a large nation

I don't have any leverage/say when it comes to government matters

But hey - maybe "your leaders," should've respected those Nazi's, right?

And whose to say they're actual Nazi's? I'm regularly told that waving Nazi flags, saying "the Jews will not replace us," and giving the Nazi salute does not make one a Nazi but instead is indicative of me being brainwashed to see anyone/everyone I don't agree with as a Nazi

So let's have some logical consistency here


What I'm saying is flag waving and chanting isn't tyranny or oppression by any stretch of the imagination, even imaginations as fevered as yours.


Where did I claim that its tyranny and/or oppression?

Don't worry, I'll wait you to cite specifically where I said that - because I didn't.

What I've said is that I don't believe Nazi's should be or have protected free speech.

What's being debated is whether or not they're actual Nazi's so I used them using flags, salutes, etc to show they are Nazi's.

Now my words are being twisted to show that waving flags and salutes are oppressive - which I've never once claimed, nor could be claimed by anyone else, even one as pompous and ignorant as yourself.


I never claimed that you did. As you can tell by reading, I said that was my point, not yours.



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 02:53 PM
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a reply to: RomeByFire


What I've said is that I don't believe Nazi's should be or have protected free speech.


Know who else didn't believe in free speech? I'll give you three guess but you'll only need one.
edit on 22-8-2017 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)



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