Reincarnation is NOT possible and here's why....

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: DeathSlayer

You make an absolute statement (viz it is not possible to reincarnate) with out providing quantitative proof (or qualitative for that matter). You appear to be stuck in the Abrahamic paradigm.

Your analysis is correct however what you request lies within the supernatural realm and not of this realm. Proof of the supernatural realm very rarely exist though digital means. Any chances of catching a supernatural event would be with the "old film", the analog way, learning proper night photography even though documenting a supernatural act in itself is forbidden on the other side from both sides (light and dark).

The supernatural realm is not to interfere with the physical world UNLESS special circumstances are involved and it is on a case by case decision NOT made by man on whether interference is needed or not. There will not be any special announcement on when and where it will take place.The decision is done in secret and carried out in secret, normally on a one to one basis making documentation almost impossible.

What I speak of goes beyond religion. One reason it ties with religion is due to its spiritual nature which can include religions. What I talk about is much older than any religion.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Yup I have seen the harm so called exorcists do to the mentally unwell.
Oh and this thread is a massive fail you have proved nothing as usual.

a reply to: ParasuvO

Not sure where you heading with this?

Not sure if you know Christianity,

Does not sound like you have read through and understood the Holy Bible?

The Gospel is the Good News!

Because of what Jesus accomplished the door (pearly gates) is open and EVERYONE is now ELIGIBLE to enter heaven. The ONLY way to the father in heaven is though Jesus and those who reject him will find the gate closed.

The above is a "sugar coated" version of the good news and consisted of two sentences which have produced thousands of manuals and books explaining these two simple sentences.

If you have accepted Jesus "The Christ, Son of Man, Son of God, in your heart and believe the gospel; and with this faith walk with Christ, you become eligible to walk through those pearly gates.

Ask and you shall receive....

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Then you have been misinformed my friend.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

What gets to me about yourself is the fake concern you show for others.
I remember your past accounts and If anything you do not practise much to do with the good jesus taught.
Remember "kill em all let god sort em out"?.
Sorry but you are a charlatan.

a reply to: testingtesting

No one know's what really happened at the Massacre of Beziers but that saying come's from an Abbot called Arnaud Amalric, far from a christian in most people's books though he was declared a saint by some at the time, it was based on his decision to sack the town and massacre the ENTIRE population on suspicion that some Cathars (Cathars were a different branch of Christianity and regarded as heretic's by the mainstream church's) were hiding among the population.

In truth Catharism was not original Christianity and many of it's belief's were at odd's with True Christianity, it was a Gnostic Dualist Good and Evil religion which derived from the post Christian Gnostic movement's and due to it's late appearance it was probably inspired by or even born of the Bogomilism which was a Hungarian Gnostic religion born in the 900's.
en.wikipedia.org...
www.thoughtco.com...
www.britannica.com...

So basically they were not true christian's but people misled by priests that had converted to this late stage gnostic religion.

Amalric though was no saint in my faith, the man acted against God, even if christian's had ever been told to kill which at no point in the bible were they ever the old testament gave a contradictory equation which show's just how evil and Godless (misguided) Amalric really was.
In this account from Genesis the lord weighs the city after Abraham asked for it to be spared if there were any just men in it.
"Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?" 26So the LORD said, "If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account."
Amalric did the opposite, he ordered all the just (innocent) people killed to get the few Cathars whom were hiding among them.


Now that we have explained the origin and the error of that statement to you I should like to ask you to stop accusing one another, Deathslayer is as fallible as the rest of us I Am sure but he is not being false in his care, he shared his opinion not to be accused but for a lively debate and there was good in it because his opinion is actually in line with that of the Lord himself as far as our current surviving texts of the bible AND the word's of Jesus himself are concerned and I also agree with his post.

There are some Jewish sect's that do believe in reincarnation and also some of Samaritan descent whom are now almost entirely Islamic but believe strongly in it as well but these belief's may have been a later introduction.
Description's of the resurrection in the bible are both literal and also interpretive, the valley of dry bone's for example could be interpretive (though it is certainly not beyond the ability of God and it could also be literal - turning dry bone's - ashes back into living bone's, making the flesh to reappear upon them and then the breath of live - the spirit of life to reenter them which may actually be in the spirit realm just as easily as it is in the physical world) and the explanation given of Jesus second coming, AS YOU SEE THIS JESUS ASCEND SO TOO SHALL YOU SEE HIM RETURN so not reincarnation as someone wrongly interpreted.

Remember this universe is itself a supernatural manifestation of God's will, God according to Jesus (whom is God incarnate as a man) is a Spirit.

So why would god put a fully grown spirit back into a baby, Jesus own body was made of his Spirit, he was like a solid apparition but lived and suffered all that a man does, he was actually a real man not a ghost so really suffered for us but his body ascended with cloud's (Spirit's) and returned to being a part of God, the son in the holy trinity of the Father, the son and the holy Spirit.

It is easy to believe in reincarnation because many of us have memory's that we wonder are they really us but NO they are not, each and every one of us is unique and a singular child of God, the valley of dry bone's are the whole house of the Israel not just five guys whom had lived multiple lives or a single guy living all the lives and outside of time as some actually believe - wrongly.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

I am pretty sure my religion (polytheistic pre christian Gaelic) and your religion (apparently Abrahamic) see things very much differently.

Thus I reiterate, the author of the post (its not an article) from your OP ... is full of manure from male cows

a reply to: Noinden

Do you follow odin?.

a reply to: testingtesting

No I said Gaelic. He's a Northern Germanic Deity. While I beleive in all deities (none are supreme) as a hard polytheist, the Gods of the pre-Christian Irish are mine. The Tuahta de Dannan mostly. I hold special reverence for An Morrigan, An Dagda, Lug and Ogma.

So why did you ask about Mr Wednesday?

a reply to: Noinden

American gods .
Sounds cool you should make a thread about it all.

a reply to: testingtesting

While I could do a thread about it, I don't see the point on this Abrahamic flavoured site

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Reincarnation is NOT possible and here's why....

Anything is possible if you have true faith. Don't you know you can move mountains?
Lets see what Jesus says about reincarnation.

Matthew 17: 10-13
10 “And His disciples asked Him, ‘Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?’ 11 And He answered and said, ‘Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.’ 13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist”

a reply to: TheInfiniteFantastic

another good point... the good book says "with God anything is possible"

but the OP denies that this one thing is possible, along with several other christian members

Though i don't recall anything after that statement saying "except reincarnation"

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
When a human is born it comes with a spirit (of itself) within the physical body. A spitting image of itself and as the human body grows so does this "spirit".

Christians generally consider the spirit of life to commence at conception, not birth. Of course this misunderstanding is related to this teaching which stands in contrast with what I will quote below that from a slightly different source (and swapping out "soul" for "spirit" in the teaching doesn't negate its origin):

creationism (n.)
1847, originally a Christian theological position that God immediately created a soul for each person born; from creation + -ism. As a name for the religious reaction to Darwin, opposed to evolution, it is attested from 1880.

Source: Creationism - Online Etymology Dictionary (link in comment with more details)

Myth 1: The Soul Is Immortal

What is the origin of the myth?

“The early Christian philosophers adopted the Greek concept of the soul’s immortality and thought of the soul as being created by God and infused into the body at conception.”—The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1988), Volume 11, page 25.

What does the Bible say?

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”—Ezekiel 18:4, King James Version.

Regarding the creation of the first human soul, the Bible says: “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul [Hebrew, neʹphesh].”—Genesis 2:7.

The Hebrew word neʹphesh, translated “soul,” means ‘a creature that breathes.’ When God created the first man, Adam, He did not infuse into him an immortal soul but the life force that is maintained by breathing. Therefore, “soul” in the Biblical sense refers to the entire living being. If separated from the life force originally given by God, the soul dies.—Genesis 3:19; Ezekiel 18:20.

The doctrine of the immortality of the soul raised questions: Where do souls go after death? What happens to the souls of the wicked? When nominal Christians adopted the myth of the immortal soul, this led them to accept another myth—the teaching of hellfire.

Compare these Bible verses: Ecclesiastes 3:19; Matthew 10:28; Acts 3:23

FACT:

At death a person ceases to exist

Source: One myth leads to another

In my conversation with Seede in my thread about myths where he was also swapping out the word "soul" with the word "spirit" I also mentioned in this comment:

Is the soul the same as the spirit?

Eccl. 12:7: “Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit [or, life-force; Hebrew, ruʹach] itself returns to the true God who gave it.” (Notice that the Hebrew word for spirit is ruʹach; but the word translated soul is neʹphesh. The text does not mean that at death the spirit travels all the way to the personal presence of God; rather, any prospect for the person to live again rests with God. In similar usage, we may say that, if required payments are not made by the buyer of a piece of property, the property “returns” to its owner.) (KJ, AS, RS, NE, and Dy all here render ruʹach as “spirit.” NAB reads “life breath.”)

Eccl. 3:19: “There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit [Hebrew, ruʹach].” (Thus both mankind and beasts are shown to have the same ruʹach, or spirit. For comments on verses 20, 21, see page 383.)

Heb. 4:12: “The word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul [Greek, psy·khesʹ; “life,” NE] and spirit [Greek, pneuʹma·tos], and of joints and their marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Observe that the Greek word for “spirit” is not the same as the word for “soul.”)

Does conscious life continue for a person after the spirit leaves the body?

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit [Hebrew, from ruʹach] goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (NAB, Ro, Yg, and Dy [145:4] here render ruʹach as “spirit.” Some translations say “breath.”) (Also Psalm 104:29)

What is the origin of Christendom’s belief in an immaterial, immortal soul?

“The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen [died c. 254 C.E.] in the East and St. Augustine [died 430 C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature. . . . His [Augustine’s] doctrine . . . owed much (including some shortcomings) to Neoplatonism.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 452, 454.

“The concept of immortality is a product of Greek thinking, whereas the hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought. . . . Following Alexander’s conquests Judaism gradually absorbed Greek concepts.”—Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Bible (Valence, France; 1935), edited by Alexandre Westphal, Vol. 2, p. 557.

“Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato.”—Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, p. 35. “The problem of immortality, we have seen, engaged the serious attention of the Babylonian theologians. . . . Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., p. 556.

Source: Soul, Reasoning from the Scriptures

originally posted by: TheInfiniteFantastic
a reply to: DeathSlayer

Reincarnation is NOT possible and here's why....

Anything is possible if you have true faith. Don't you know you can move mountains?
Lets see what Jesus says about reincarnation.

Matthew 17: 10-13
10 “And His disciples asked Him, ‘Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?’ 11 And He answered and said, ‘Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.’ 13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist”

There's another quote attributed to Jesus about reincarnation in the Secret Book of John from the Nag Hammadi/gnostic texts.

I know many folks don't view things outside the four canonical gospels as legitimate, but to me, that's just silly. Nobody to this day can claim they know who wrote the four main gospels just as equally as all of the gnostic texts. The only difference is that Constantine & co. chose those four because they provided the narrative he desired. Yet I digress.

The quote:
"This soul needs to follow another soul in whom the Spirit of life dwells, because she is saved through the Spirit. Then she will never be thrust into flesh again."

There's also talk of reincarnation in the Pistis Sophia as well.

a reply to: AgarthaSeed

That is correct and one of the many thing's we Christian's have struggled with as a concept, we usually think of it as John having the Authority of Elijah or being a Proxy for Elijah but in reality it then is we whom are trying to interpret and it is literally spelled out as Elijah Came and he WAS/IS John the Baptist so that can therefore only be a form of reincarnation.

There are other point's, the Ladder Jacob saw had angels' coming into the earth and angels' ascending, what if we are those angel's? and coming into the earth the very battle field between good and evil is actually being born into human body's.

The vision of throne and the wheel's by Ezekiel.
The Hindu's and Buddhists have the concept of the wheel of dharma, this show's there concept of the cycle of life, death and reincarnation.
When Ezekiel saw the throne with god seated above it and the four wheel's, not one but four.

In the Hindu and Buddhist view Jesus is the perfect soul devoid of the fault's and sin's that bind them to this world, he took our Karma and lifted us off of the wheel to a more perfect state.
And though open to debate reincarnation does feature in the bible.
www.amazon.com...

originally posted by: windword


That's not what scripture says. That's your tortured logic to deny a simple statement. Reincarnation was part and parcel to the teaching of Jesus, otherwise the disciples wouldn't have asked Jesus this:
John 9:2
His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?".

If reincarnation was not considered to be a reality there would be no need to ask Jesus this question.

Research "generational curses" in the Bible. The above verses have nothing to do with reincarnation.

Again, that's not what Jesus said. Jesus didn't say that a "spirit" born of the flesh must be reborn to pure spirit. He said:
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Therefore, it is written that dirty sweaty sexual intercourse does not give rise to spirit. Spirit gives rise to spirit, and according tot eh Bible, "spirit" comes from the breath of God. The spirit enters the body at first breath. That's biblical baby!

The spirit that enters the body at first breath gives the body life, but it doesn't give it the "Holy Spirit". You must be reborn with the "Holy Spirit" to enter the kingdom of God. In other words, the Holy Spirit gives birth to a reborn spirit, not a reborn body.

When a human is born it comes with a spirit (of itself) within the physical body. A spitting image of itself and as the human body grows so does this "spirit".

a reply to: DeathSlayer ???

"That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul. " (Bhagavad Gita 2.17)

"For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (Bhagavad Gita 2.20)

"The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.(Bhagavad Gita 2.23)

a reply to: Deetermined

Research "generational curses" in the Bible. The above verses have nothing to do with reincarnation.

LOL.....
How could a person born blind have cause his own blindness by sinning if hadn't LIVED to sin before? A "generational curse" cannot be applied here.

His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

The scripture suggests the apostles thought either his parents sinned, (generational curse) or the man himself sinned, for him to be born blind. That's reincarnation baby! Nothing else.

a reply to: windword

Good point. But the bigger picture here is being ignored.

What's the point in looking for Christian references to reincarnation throughout scripture when The Bible itself was assembled with the intention of promoting a heaven/hell paradigm?

Would you be surpised if a vegan cookbook didn't have any recipes for baby back ribs?