It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

US Navy collisions stoke cyber threat concerns

page: 3
8
<< 1  2   >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 01:13 PM
link   
a reply to: ChrisM101

I'm well aware of our capabilities. I'm also aware that our systems are hardened against EMP, and extremely difficult to flat over power at any kind of long range. You'd have to get close to do it.

We have had many MQ-1s crash, including more than just two in two days. They are quite good at doing it on their own. They also have unencrypted datalinks for some of their systems, unlike just about everything else employed by the military.




posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 01:39 PM
link   

originally posted by: CovertAgenda
a reply to: Zaphod58


If the ship broke, it broke, and there wasn't a lot they could do about getting out of the way.

A 'state of the art' 'combat capable' ship without multiple redundancy steering systems?
They don't have a reverse on these ships?
Couldn't use asymmetrical engine power to steer?
WTF??... I didnt even have to steer my old 35footer with twin diesels even whilst docking if using power and gearbox correctly.
With my current 32footer with twin diesel jet drives I can perform a frikkin ballet on engine power and reverse deflector control only.
Ya different scale but the concepts the same.
Just sayin.....


first navy ships have at least 3 redundancy steering systems but the manual systems are slower then the main steering systems.
part of this is because of the small lag in communications between the bridge and aftersteering room over sound power phones.
the other part is the non powered last resort system is a hand turned wheel that is about 4 foot around and run by cables and looks like a old sailing ship wheel.

in a above post Jacksonsman1 posted
"The Deck watch officer is screaming at me over the radio to give her full starboard rudder."
First a radio is never used between the bridge and after steering its always sound powered phones.
and the order would have been sent as "30 degrees starboard rudder".
And every one trained on a radio in the navy knows never to scream or yell into the mike on radio. yelling or screaming into the mike on a radio causes the massage to break up.

Next question
"They don't have a reverse on these ships?"
yes but at 10 knots it take 4 to 5 ships lengths before it even stops moving forward and that was on a Aggressive-class minesweeper with controllable pitch propellers
The USS John S. McCain has fixed pitch props and forward/reverse gear box. and the prop shaft and prop has to be stopped before it can go into reverse gear.
The prop shaft and prop weighs some were over 40 tons that you have to stop and reverse.
You are going to move faster on a ship like the McCain by going full ahead emergency then taking the time to go in reverse.

next
"I didnt even have to steer my old 35footer with twin diesels even whilst docking if using power and gearbox correctly."
and your old 35 footer did not weigh 9,000 tons ether or try it with a 30 knot wind coming from the side some time without using the rudder.

and last
"Ya different scale but the concepts the same."
And takes a lot longer because of size.

I was qualified to stand helm, lee helm, and after steering watch on three difference classes of ships.
MSB 50 mine sweep boat.
c1.staticflickr.com...

YFU 39/LCT/LCU/LSU-1363
www.navsource.org...
www.navsource.org...

USS Enhance MSO 437
www.navsource.org...
edit on 22-8-2017 by ANNED because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 02:08 PM
link   

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: whywhynot

The Arleigh Burke uses a gear system for the steering. The gears are supplied by Northrop Grumman.


Thank you for the reply. Not really certain what a gear system means. Perhaps I didn't ask specifically enough.

Since I asked my question ive been doing some more research. It appears to me that steering inputs are converted into millivolt outputs. Those output signals are directed through an electrical cabling system to the rudder compartment. There the electrical signal is converted to a mechanical out put which drives (and things get fuzzy here) you say gears and I speculate hydraulics or some combination there of which drives the rudder.

My thought at the time was if steering is done via electronic inputs and they go through some type of computer/processor then hacking could be possible.

I see an article from a few mounts ago that all Arleigh Burke class will get a retro fit to Ethernet for all combat, steering and fire control. Sounds like it is computer controlled.

Now I read that hacking is being considered.

If someone can hack this it will have the Navy really working hard to get this under control.



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 03:24 PM
link   

originally posted by: whywhynot

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: whywhynot

The Arleigh Burke uses a gear system for the steering. The gears are supplied by Northrop Grumman.


Thank you for the reply. Not really certain what a gear system means. Perhaps I didn't ask specifically enough.

Since I asked my question ive been doing some more research. It appears to me that steering inputs are converted into millivolt outputs. Those output signals are directed through an electrical cabling system to the rudder compartment. There the electrical signal is converted to a mechanical out put which drives (and things get fuzzy here) you say gears and I speculate hydraulics or some combination there of which drives the rudder.

My thought at the time was if steering is done via electronic inputs and they go through some type of computer/processor then hacking could be possible.

I see an article from a few mounts ago that all Arleigh Burke class will get a retro fit to Ethernet for all combat, steering and fire control. Sounds like it is computer controlled.

Now I read that hacking is being considered.

If someone can hack this it will have the Navy really working hard to get this under control.

The steering system on navy ships use servomotor from the bridge Servomotor in after steering with hydraulic power booster in after steering.
Turn the servomotor on the bridge one turn and the servomotor in after steering will turn one turn.
en.wikipedia.org...

Ethernet is not Internet.
Ethernet uses fiber optics to to send a signal from point to point on the ship.
This replaces big bundles of wires on the ship with a few small fiber optics cables and protects the ships equipment from EMP and RF signal interference .
Ethernet is a system for connecting a number of computer systems to form a ship wide local area network, with protocols to control the passing of information and to avoid simultaneous transmission by two or more systems.
Ethernet on a ship is never connected to the outside, this LAN is ship only.
www.militaryaerospace.com...
edit on 22-8-2017 by ANNED because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 04:04 PM
link   
a reply to: ANNED
Thanks for the reply. Super detail in the link. Thanks again.

I certainly realize that an Ethernet isn't the same as an internet. And yes the Ethernet upgrade will be good verses thousands of individual wires.

But their must be some type of semiconductor interface. Perhaps programmable logic controllers. If so the signal could be hacked even on a air gapped system.

I guess we may see what comes of the investigation.

Once more thanks for the reply.



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 04:43 PM
link   
It seems unlikely that access to the ship's electronics could be made while it is sailing at sea. And any strange electronic gear install to be accessed by a remote radio signal would be obvious to the maintenance personnel, I would think.



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 06:43 PM
link   
a reply to: roadgravel

A couple thoughts for your consideration. Could there be a traitor on board, could a malicious virus be coded on to the software when it was installed with a trigger that activates it based on timing or some physical location or activity, could a virus be inadvertently downloaded during routine maintenance. Before you say no remember the Iranian centrifuges.



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 06:52 PM
link   
a reply to: whywhynot

Sabotage is always a possibility.

So something that is triggered by a person on board?

I would hope there are controls in place to prevent it, but never say never.



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 07:33 PM
link   

originally posted by: roadgravel
a reply to: whywhynot

Sabotage is always a possibility.

So something that is triggered by a person on board?

I would hope there are controls in place to prevent it, but never say never.


The US navy is deploying the Resilient Hull, Mechanical, and Electrical Security (RHIMES) system on navy ships to protect against this.
Anyone onboard trying to hack the ships systems would have to hack each system one at a time and can not use the same hack for each system.
www.pdfsupply.com...

This may be one of those systems that will be a major help in protecting civilian plants from cyber attacks around the US and the navy holds the rights to it and can sell the rights for civilian plants of all types.

edit on 22-8-2017 by ANNED because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 08:41 PM
link   
a reply to: ANNED

Sounds pretty darn awesome.



posted on Aug, 22 2017 @ 08:48 PM
link   
To put it in perspective, in 2013, there were 10 Class A Afloat mishaps (a Class A mishap is an incident that causes $2M+ in damage, the loss of the asset, or a fatality). In 2014 there were 6. In 2015, there was a low of 1,but it bounced back up to 5 in 2016. There are 4 for this year, and we're mostly through the Fiscal Year.

With the exception of 2015, they're actually low on the accident rate this year. The accident rate is calculated per 100 ships.
edit on 8/22/2017 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2017 @ 08:02 AM
link   

originally posted by: roadgravel
It seems unlikely that access to the ship's electronics could be made while it is sailing at sea. And any strange electronic gear install to be accessed by a remote radio signal would be obvious to the maintenance personnel, I would think.


Unless we are for some reason turning 90 degrees left into traffic, both of these ships were struck at 90 degree angles, id be far more inclined to state that commercial traffic is vulnerable to a hack than the US Navy.



posted on Aug, 28 2017 @ 09:02 AM
link   
Great article posted today that explains exactly why these occurred. The Seventh Fleet operates 42 more days at sea than the "regular Navy" ships do. To maintain their operations tempo they push maintenance back, and put band aids on everything they can until they come home for overhaul.

The USS Essex returned to San Diego in 2012. She had been overseas for 12 years, and had collided with an oil tanker on the way into California. The Navy allocated 177,206 labor days for overhaul and repair. By the time they were done, they had used 364,280 labor days. That's just one example cited in the article.

www.defensenews.com...




top topics



 
8
<< 1  2   >>

log in

join