POLITICS: Back from Iraq: Out on the Street

Islamic extremists have nothing to do with our corrupt administration. When ever Bush ran for presidency, he did so with hidden agendas. Some of those agendas were hidden and others were not quit so hidden. As we progress into his second election we already see his war hungry pursuit.

There was nothing Bush could have done to prevent the tragedies of 9-11; however, this war over seas and his future plans for forced democracy could have been prevented. We must remember, also, majority of Bush supporters have an affiliation with the military and big business.

President Bush has plans on hurting our economy, however unintentional they may appear. His budget is unrealistic- he has increased the Military budgets while cutting back on social security and insurance. He has put a stopper on lawsuits to drug company's and put a minimization on law suits to hospital. Currently the drug company makes up about 15% of the US total budget- his budget is going to increase the amount we are paying for medical treatment and the amount we are paying for the prescription.

In addition, there is also the threat of Codex coming to the United States. We have a responsibility to try and stop that from happening as much as possible. Right now majority of the population is relying on vitamin supplements to get the required nutrition from food- if Bush accepts the Codex policy all biologicaly active agents, including vitamins, will require a prescription; boosting the drug company to a total of 20 % of the US source of income.

Bush is hurting his supporters and hurting our country. This we can not blaim on the Islamic Extremists. His underlying decision for war is his- once he sets his mind on something he will pursuit it no matter what. We the people have to make our government listen. Petition- petition- petition.

From what I read of this thread there are 2 different topics here.
Soficrow is talking about the returning vets and the trouble they face.

Meanwhile CazMedia is complaining about people making anti-bush comments, regardless of what the topic is.

Quit ya whining CazMedia.

Its plain to see where the problem lies. All the spin in the world can't hide that. If soficrow ties the problems of the vets into problems in Bush's administration and it sticks, then be man enough to admit it, instead of trying to shut people down.

[edit on 9-2-2005 by Netchicken]

Netchicken,

You know you have a point, lately things that are not looking good in our country and are links to the decisions of our top leaders whenever they are brought up to debate some immediately tag it as "bush bashing"

I am sorry but things are not looking good with some of our administrations decisions.

Veterans in our country from previous wars and our now present conflicts are a matter that we all Americans has to take very seriously.

Another issue the tax cuts Bush is trying to push in congress have nothing to do with Islamic radicals, the defense budget still look good and in one piece.

Our domestic agendas are the ones that will suffer in these proposed cuts.

The well being and proper care of social programs for our citizens should be top priority along with security.

No security first, while disregarding the well being and health of the citizens and giving them hardship while keeping them safe, that does not sounds right and it seems inmoral.

From one of the articles I posted above:


" "It's time for the government to wake up," he says. "If soldiers come back and find out they were lied to, we're going to have a rebellion on our hands."

As small waves of Iraq vets return home, organizations that offer housing, employment and counseling services expect the problems will be unlike anything the United States has ever seen. They say they're not prepared and the federal government isn't offering enough support and assistance. "


...There is a growing problem. Blaming the victims does not solve the problem - just abdicates responsibility. Pretending the problem doesn't exist does not solve the problem. Blaming past presidents or Congress does not solve the problem...

IMO - it's better to deal with the problem now, instead of waiting until it's out of control.


.

This is very sad. There are so many organizations out there set up to help in so many areas of the different branches of military. There should be a new organization set up just for the vets that are comming home and are in need of help.
The one place that seems to be helping is :

www.soldiersangels.org...

And lets not forget those war dogs :

uswardogs.org...

There alot people can do to help. Even people without alot of money. Become a letter writter. Send care packages, and if you can help these men and women comming home and very much in need of help after they have served our country.

Originally posted by Romeo
did I miss something? What's WRONG with a good Bush bash? Of all the people on he planet he seems the one most worthy of a good ol fashioned stoning.

Personally, I'd prefer to bash child rapists and maybe Molosovich Maybe some Klan members (hehe Like the honorable Robert Byrd), and maybe Koffi Annon's son for his great quotes. Though Bush does say some entertaining things...Lemme grab my Bushisms book...(the pics in this thing are hilarious) Here's a good one:

It was just inebriating what Midland was all about then

So back on topic, what, no comments about desert smink? Seems like ewveryone shirks away when I quote that guy. His blog is incredible. He was there, in Iraq, he's back now. I read through his entire archive in 2 days. Y'all can learn my real name there if you pay attention to some of the comments I made as Anonymous (didn't want to sign up for a blog) but then signed my name. He really gives an interesting viewpoint at the war, Bush's plans, and coming home after serving in combat.

OMG, there are still some who read something like this and take offense at Bush bashing. Let me tell you, the man deserves to be BASHED.

Anything that comes out of his mouth is lies. How on earth can anyone still defend him? I just dont know about some of you...

This is not a thread about Bush, its about our troops comming home only to become homeless....lets see if we can stop bashing and start helping???? Whats wrong with you people that feel such a need to place blame on someone, when you can just HELP THOSE IN NEED.
Its the whinners of this world that makes it such a pathetic place. Those with good in thier hearts often find themselves lending a hand instead of spouting off about who you believe caused the problem to start with.

Whew, I was getting worried I killed this thread. Thankfully, y'all just chose to ignore the relevant point I made to the topic and focus on people talking about Bush bashing.

Originally posted by junglejake
[ about desert smink? . He was there, in Iraq, he's back now. I read through his entire archive in 2 days. ... He really gives an interesting viewpoint at the war, Bush's plans, and coming home after serving in combat.

You got a link?


.

Originally posted by soficrow

Originally posted by junglejake
[ about desert smink? . He was there, in Iraq, he's back now. I read through his entire archive in 2 days. ... He really gives an interesting viewpoint at the war, Bush's plans, and coming home after serving in combat.

You got a link?


.

Yep...uh, mods, hope you're ok with this short post, but I don't really have anything more to add.

desert-smink.blogspot.com...

The title of his blog is


In Iraq for 365

About my experiences in Iraq... the frustrations, the missions and this country.

Really cool stuff.

All vets since Nam ( maybe before that but I do not have first hand knowledge) have been treated like dirt.

My brother in law was in nam. He was injured in combat to the extent that he is still in pain. He has not been able to hold a job. His only medical that he can afford is the VA. He would talk about how bad the treatment is. I just kinda blew his comments off as just being disgruntled.

Last month a friend of mines dad went ill and and he was hospitalized at a va hopital. He told me that during the day not one nurse came around let alone the doctor to check on him. My friend had to empty his bed pan for him. This trreatment went on for several days.

Soldiers are viewed as used parts and are discarded if they can't provide there own health care. god forbid that they are poor and need assistance. It is a shame and a disgrace on all of the past administrations.

Originally posted by soficrow

" "It's time for the government to wake up," he says. "If soldiers come back and find out they were lied to, we're going to have a rebellion on our hands."

I disagree with this. It won't happen. Maybe I should have added a link. I will now:
bonus marchers, 9,000 Google pages
The Viet Nam anti-war protests were even more severe. America is one of the many nations throughout history that calls upon its young to perform prodigious acts while ignoring or paying lip-service to the plight created.

Read a little about the WW I 'bonus marchers' for a glimmer of what lay ahead. For some reason post- Viet Nam and post Korea are forgotten.

WW II was different. For some reason America decided to treat its returning military as heroes. Perhaps it was because the volume was so large, may be herein lay the problem.

(from above link). . . many Americans applauded the government's action as an unfortunate but necessary move to maintain law and order . . .

This was 1932. Depression America applauded military force against Veterans. Think about this. The same thing happened in the 70's except for this time around massive non-veteran numbers had swelled the ranks. There was no depression and the sitting president (Nixon) was re-elected.

Fast forward to 2005/06. By the end of 2005 the number of returned veterans will have grown enough to have an impact. Bush doesn't face re-election. With two years ahead and no worry about electoral defeat the present day veterans have no leverage. In America, leverage is everything.

America has become a nation of political forces. Pressure (groups), influence buying and corporatism rule the day. As in 1932, even with the added impetus of a depression, America sanctioned maltreatment of dissenters.

This is one of the amazing anomalies of history- the nation supposedly built upon dissent
does not support it. What will happen is radical groups of armed 'constitutionalists' and 'patriots' will grow and emerge. The present Washington leadership will develop the old Nixonian 'siege-mentality. Statements similar to silent majority, and will of the people will be used more and more as a justification and shield against disagreement.

Many seem to forget that 1950 America created Sen. Joe McCarthty. While the G.I. Bill of 1944 is unarguably the single most important piece of industrial/societal legislation passed since 1863's Emancipation Proclamation the hopes and promises of past social legislation often get trampled in a peoples rush to forget distasteful times and events.

the hidden economic fear of banks, mortgage companies and the like is a little heard of and often forgotten veteran's entitlement called the Soldier's and sailor's Relief Act of 1940

One of the most significant provisions under the act limits the amount of interest that may be collected on debts of persons in military service to 6 percent per year during the period of military service. This provision applies to all debts incurred prior to the commencement of active duty and includes interest on credit card debt, mortgages, car loans and other debts. The provision, Lindemann emphasized, applies to pre-service debts, and the interest rate reduction doesn't occur automatically — service members must request it.

• Reduced interest rate on mortgage payments.
• Reduced interest rate on credit card debt.
• Protection from eviction if your rent is $1,200 or less.
• Delay of all civil court actions, such as bankruptcy, foreclosure or divorce proceedings.

Active personnel duty and Veterans have benefits, it is just often either not enough or hard to acquire. Frustration alone will not cause upheaval in America. Because there has never been a national rebellion (Civil War aside) it is impossible to gage what could light up the skies.
.

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Lets be clear here about what im saying about this threads

1) There is indeed a problem where SOME (as yet unshown on here) likley small % of vets are having difficulties which the government systems and private groups are not helping enough with.
This IS a good topic and certantly the vets deserve everyones help more.

2) The use of a LIE to try and link this problem, which the government and private groups involved in are having difficulties with, to the Bush buget in a manner in which to cast blame and essentially evoke an emotional anti-Bush feeling.

Now these things being said....Im NOT here to defend BUSH!!!!!
Bush is not my god nor the greatest President ever.
BUT
I cant believe how quickly so many of you are willing to swallow a bold faced LIE in your anti-Bush Zeal!!! Are you people really that stupid? (oh i hear the warn comming to erase the applause i got twice on this thread so far) Im pointing out not only BIAS, but the way that a LIE is being used to prop up an accusation that ive shown has NO TRUTH to it. Yet so many have piped up with their blind anti-B zeal like the blind and closed minded fools that ALL politicians need to stay in power.

Lets look AGAIN.
Soficrow takes a great topic (vets with problems) and taints it by imposing a LIE that attempts to tie these problems to the buget proposals of the President.
Soficrow's opening LIE,

Bush's budget is a priority list, and veterans aren't on the list.

Now why do i say this is a LIE?
www.whitehouse.gov...
Exerpts from this source,

Since FY 2001, President Bush has improved the quality of life for military personnel and their families by providing pay raises of more than 21% and increasing the quality of housing and covering housing costs for personnel who choose to live off-base.

and

Veterans: The President’s FY 2005 budget for VA medical care is over 40% larger than when he took office – enabling a million more patients to receive treatment. He has also implemented changes to ensure that veterans receive timely and quality medical care, shortened the time needed to process a veteran’s disability claims, and put VA on track to eliminate the waiting lists for veterans in need of medical care this year.

Now when you look at Sofi's opening volley, and then to the facts
HOW IN THE HELL CAN YOU SAY HE WAS TRUTHFUL?
In what dimension can you show some counter information which will refute the evidence ive provided to counter my info or support Sofi's accusation? Come on people give me a break here and USE YOUR BRAINS FREE FROM BIAS CLUTTER!
OR continue to provide amusment to others reading this thread when its OBVIOUS that even when given the FACTS, your still willing to express total assinine opinions while attempting to iongore, disbelieve or sidetrack away from the facts staring you in the face.

Wyrdeone asks,

Why do we have to do all the work to prove you guys wrong?

Because when you make an accusation like the one Sofi opened this thread with, you BETTER be able to back it up, or you throw away your own credibillity. This is especially true when someone like me follows, with information they took the time to research and provide to all that clearly shows the accusation to be untrue. PROVE ME WRONG, ILL ADMIT IT!
Unlike Wyrdeone here,

You want us to admit that we're wrong about this one piece of data? No way.

How ignorant this statement was...i wasnt asking for any of the other sidetracking things you tried to obfuscate the LIE with...IF you cant accept the info that ive shown to counter the LIE with, or you cant provide something tangible that provides other counter and relavent info for consideration, that you blow smoke up your own wazoo and its OBVIOUS to others as well. You CANT admit to the opening line to this thread as being a LIE because it prevents you from bashing with no proof.

Romeo asks,

What's WRONG with a good Bush bash? Of all the people on he planet he seems the one most worthy of a good ol fashioned stoning.

This followed by dgtempe, similar spew,

OMG, there are still some who read something like this and take offense at Bush bashing. Let me tell you, the man deserves to be BASHED.

NOTHING! There is nothing wrong with criticizing any administration or policy. I say question everything.
The BIGGEST problem i see when trying to deny ignorance tho is when the "bash" is based off of a false premise to start with. When there is NOTHING to back up the LIE but emotional non truths.
It worrys me that soo many of you seem to think "oh well" on this concept...willing to swallow a LIE because it fits your need to believe it is the sign of a weak mind. Be lemmings if you want, but dont cry when someone tells you how they see you.
dgtempe says,

Anything that comes out of his mouth is lies. How on earth can anyone still defend him? I just dont know about some of you...

Well im saying the same thing about the LIE in the first sentance of this thread, and i still sit here wondering how anyone is still defending it.

This means you netchicken.
Come off your high horse netchicken and answer the questions i posed in my last post if you think you can. Ive stated MANY times in this thread that the issue of "vets in trouble" IS a worthy topic, but DO NOT make the connection that Sofi's opening line asserts, and when i show verifyable info counter to this accusation, you pipe in with NOTHING TANGIBLE to counter it and claim im whining? PLEASE try harder to avoid the questions i raise chicken...and then we can all talk about how we can find a solution to the vets issue.
Netchicken says,

If soficrow ties the problems of the vets into problems in Bush's administration and it sticks, then be man enough to admit it, instead of trying to shut people down.

I have NOT tried to shut anyone down, saying many times this topic is good, yet im still waiting for someone to show where my info, which counters the LIE that started this thread is invalid. To me NOONE has shown where this initial LIE is sticking on the administration. until someone does, you know where to stick this LIE. This is like the 3rd time ive asked. This is hardly shutting people down by challenging them to back up a wild claim, im giving them the opportunity to shine.

Now this being said...YES the "government", meaning the layered burocracy federally, millitarily and privately has problems with the mechnisims of assisting vets,
BUT
How does this translate into Bush's budget and record of INCREASING benifits to millitary personel? Just because Sofi says so?
Put up or shut up...please.
NOTE: ALL of these programs existed before BUSH got here, and all ive seen since he's arrived is increasing the budget on this issue.
Yet,

Bush's budget is a priority list, and veterans aren't on the list.

Soficrow,
Your post #1157675 reiterates things about the vets problems. None of which i dispute, and none of which eliminates your opening LIE which you tried to slant this piece with. This is the 2nd time on this thread youve tried this tactic of providing NOTHING to dispute the info that counters your opening whammy. Yes the rest of the vet issue is worth discussion, but can it be more that a hidden bush bash is all i ask.

Originally posted by CazMedia

Bush's budget is a priority list, and veterans aren't on the list.

Now why do i say this is a LIE?
www.whitehouse.gov...

Veterans: The President’s FY 2005 budget for VA medical care is over 40% larger than when he took office – enabling a million more patients to receive treatment. He has also implemented changes to ensure that veterans receive timely and quality medical care, shortened the time needed to process a veteran’s disability claims, and put VA on track to eliminate the waiting lists for veterans in need of medical care this year.

Now when you look at Sofi's opening volley, and then to the facts
HOW IN THE HELL CAN YOU SAY HE WAS TRUTHFUL?

Bush started a war. Of course he increased the budget for veterans. Did he increase it enough? No.


BTW - I hardly think a short sentence can be considered a volley. Also, I am a she, not a he.

...You are posting rants, generally without links - and then you accuse anyone who disagrees with you as being a Bush-basher. Get real. Bush is a big boy - but if he can't take the heat he should get out of office. Bush has billions of dollars propping up his image - I'm a sick, broke single mom who cares enough to fight for a decent world for my daughter. But according to you, I don't have a right to criticise, think for myself or God forbid, to speak out. Spin on it sport. I'm getting mighty sick of you neo-Nazi BUSH-BULLIES.

.

Soficrow, dont take critiques soo hard.
Or dont post things like

Bush's budget is a priority list, and veterans aren't on the list.

and expect people not to show contrary facts and call you out on it.

Sofi says,

I hardly think a short sentence can be considered a volley. Also, I am a she, not a he.

SORRY, who knew? Arent we all eunics when we post anyway?
As to your first sentance, ive already pointed out on this thread where it SETS THE TONE for the rest of your post. It is a clear accusation. It was shown to be untrue. Just fess up and lets discuss the merits of the rest of the issue. Moveon.ugh!

SHE says,

You are posting rants, generally without links - and then you accuse anyone who disagrees with you as being a Bush-basher.

Hmm how do you figure when in my very first post about your thread i cited a link and then raised questions about your allegations truth?
As to accusing people of being Bush bashers, your only 1/2 right...i accused you of LYING in order to support a bush bash opinion. When SOMEONE comes up with something that disproves my allegation that you LIED to start your thread, ill appologise openly, until then the LIE remains in public view...you said it, i didnt.

Sofi says,

according to you, I don't have a right to criticise, think for myself or God forbid, to speak out. Spin on it sport. I'm getting mighty sick of you neo-Nazi BUSH-BULLIES.

OH REALLY? lets review...

CazMedia says in his first post here, 1rst sentance,

The threads you create are indeed decent talking issues

Caz's third post,

Ive agreed his position about vets not getting help is valid, yet i have yet to see how he can level an accusation like this

yes yes he is a she...
Caz's 4th post,

all i can say is this was a great idea which was hijacked to become a veiled, subtle, bush bash, which attracts similar minded fools that cant back up the allegation....can you? Can sofi?

Caz #5,

1) There is indeed a problem where SOME (as yet unshown on here) likley small % of vets are having difficulties which the government systems and private groups are not helping enough with.

and this,

Now these things being said....Im NOT here to defend BUSH!!!!!
Bush is not my god nor the greatest President ever.

and this,

There is nothing wrong with criticizing any administration or policy. I say question everything.

Yet SOMEHOW you claim im a Bush-nazi?
You make yet another baseless claim that im saying you have no right to speak critically even after ive said,

This is hardly shutting people down by challenging them to back up a wild claim, im giving them the opportunity to shine.

or this,

Ive stated MANY times in this thread that the issue of "vets in trouble" IS a worthy topic, but DO NOT make the connection that Sofi's opening line asserts

WHATEVER GIRL!

You have every right to speak openly and critically about the President, and specifically the budget items of this thread.
BUT
IF the first words out of your mouth are shown to be a LIE, what does this say to other readers about your motive, credibillity, and your overall post?

If anyone brings up LIES to support unfounded allegations, i will call them out on it on any topic.
You can say that Bush's budget does not give enough for this idea, that is your rightful opinion,
just dont LIE to try and prop it up is all im asking.

[edit on 10-2-2005 by CazMedia]

Originally posted by Muaddib

No, give blame where it is due....Islamic extremists.....

But of course, some people have to use any excuse to blame the current administration....

so, islamic extremists are repsonsible for homeless vets? wow.
aren't you one of thye first guys to yell, 'support the troops'? i guess that only applies when they are in actually in the field. when they come home, they are just 'homeless bums', to be swept under the media rug.

to caz media: bush is a lying cokesnorting elitist criminal with no concern for the common man. he is a moron and looks like a monkey. bashy enough for ya?

Billybob fires away,

to caz media: bush is a lying cokesnorting elitist criminal with no concern for the common man. he is a moron and looks like a monkey. bashy enough for ya?

Quite excellent as a baseless rant.
now if you could come up with some tangible facts to support your allegations, mabey you can move from the realm of spewing emotive opinion, to discussing factual and applicable reality.

Look i could say the same about you too,
does that make it true?
bring it and back it
or
stfu = shut the freek up

If all you can offer is a bash, how much intelligence have you contributed twords denying ignorance?

Originally posted by CazMedia

Look i could say the same about you too,
does that make it true?
bring it and back it
or
stfu = shut the freek up

If all you can offer is a bash, how much intelligence have you contributed twords denying ignorance?

it's not actually 'baseless', however i don't feel compelled to try and prove to preachers that the bible is not the gospel.
simple websearches will give a 'base' to my description of herr bushler.

but. that wasn't the point of my bash. the point was that you seemed to be holding against soficrow, (who has been doing an EXCELLENT job of DECIMATING ignorance with great links, facts and insightful thinking), that 'bush bashing' was implied. my point is 'WHO CARES!' if soficrow feels compelled to bash bush, that is fine. bush bashing is not a crime(yet).
beyond that, it is the facts themselves that are doing the bashing. it is the facts that implicate bush and his cronies. soficrow needn't subtlely imply anything, as bush is (mis)spelling it out for everyone in bad grammar written in fifty foot letters. some people just don't want to look up.
the bigger problem i have with your OPINION is that you think everyone must share it. much like the hive mind of the borg. this type of 'thinking' scares me more than anything on earth.
another gripe i have, is that this bush bashing has nothing to do with starving, freezing homeless vets, which is what the thread is about. if you want to discuss soficrow's subtle bush-bashing, go start a 'soficrow is bush-bashing' thread.
i'm not the 'warn' kind of a guy, but seriously, hold off on the 'shut the freak up' attitude. this is a discussion board, not your own personal soapbox.



[edit on 10-2-2005 by billybob]

Caz - IMO - you are not denying ignorance - you are pushing Bush propaganda - and trying to silence the opposition.

On the very few occasions that you bother to cite references - you link to government paper or government paid "journalists - this government has been found guilty on several occasions of using tax payers money for "covert propaganda." 'Nuff said.

IMO - you use bad sources - when you bother to provide links at all, which isn't often. Then you play the 'devil's advocate' I'm here to 'deny ignorance' and offer a 'critique' game. What a pile of bull puckey. Harassment and red herrings. Standard strategy for the neo-nazi Bush-Bullies tho - practice ABUSE, call it critique and debunking.

I'm curious - did they teach you crowd control and brainwashing in poly sci, or did you have to go to a special school?


.


[edit on 10-2-2005 by soficrow]