Protesters pull down Confederate statue at old Durham County courthouse

a reply to: Blaine91555

History? You mean the sanitized history, rewritten by those who think hiding it is rational? A history written by less than honest people with an agenda to make change by force? People who never work with others to improve things?

So you would have no problem with LA putting up a Rodney King statue? Or how about if one of those cities considering tearing down/moving a Confederate statue instead put up another statue next to it that made it look like Confederate soldier statue was watching a lynching? I mean both those things are history. We shouldn't sanitize it.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: butcherguy

Jefferson didn't write the Constitution.

Perhaps we could immortalize something at each of these monuments and buildings that clearly states that the United States of America has for what ... 152 years ... declared slavery illegal and established Amendments to our Constitution to enshrine the promise of our founding documents which state that all are created equal? Or that we have for the last 50 years or so have created a system of laws which address continuing inequalities and that we acknowledge that where inequality exists that we will be on CONTINUAL guard against it?

Sounds like a good start.

Thanks for the correction.
But he did have a hand in it, through correspondence.

I don't have a problem with that good start.

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: butcherguy

Jefferson didn't write the Constitution.

Perhaps we could immortalize something at each of these monuments and buildings that clearly states that the United States of America has for what ... 152 years ... declared slavery illegal and established Amendments to our Constitution to enshrine the promise of our founding documents which state that all are created equal? Or that we have for the last 50 years or so have created a system of laws which address continuing inequalities and that we acknowledge that where inequality exists that we will be on CONTINUAL guard against it?

Sounds like a good start.

Thanks for the correction.
But he did have a hand in it.

I don't have a problem with that good start.

We agree.

(Should we be worried?)

a reply to: Gryphon66

The Civil War was about land rights at its core and slavery was used as the conduit for the North to justify taxing and taking land that was not theirs. If someone came to your house and said pay me or I burn it down I would hope you and your neighbors would do what the Southern States did. I would.

Southern Pride is not racism but is it ALWAYS associated. Don't fool yourself. If someone has a rebel flag they are immediately labelled a racist redneck just like a black youth with gold teeth and a Malcolm X shirt is immediately considered a thug N'word. Those images come from movies, media and music.

I wonder how Native Americans would feel about all of this? I mean, there are statues of men who killed generations and entire tribes of Native Americans and vice/versa. Don't see them pulling down statues....

Like I said in my OP...this is a slippery slope. I just hope it does not end up in DC at the Capitol because if it does it will not be a man with a random car it will be guns and a lot of death. There is no new Civil War coming but 15 years ago if you asked me if the streets would look like some 3rd world country protests with burning cars, buildings and masked people assaulting innocent people while the police stood by I would have laughed at you.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

Only if it had him arm in arm with Reginald Denny.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

I don't think I want to enter the silly zone in this conversation.

All history, good or bad should be preserved to learn from. How it's presented can be either divisive or enlightening and I prefer enlightening, but to get there may require a bit of compromise. Clearly acts of vandalism and trying to force ones own views on everyone is not a path to anything of value. It's just immature nut jobs doing what they do, so they can have their little video to post online.

a reply to: matafuchs

I'm a native Georgian. Most of my family has been here and in North Carolina since before the Civil War when some of them came here from Texas.

I have said many times that there were a set of economic and political issues at the heart of the Civil War.

Sadly, Southern Pride is associated with racism ... because all too many times it is made equivalent BY US SOUTHERNERS.

Don't pretend that it isn't. As I noted, I'm a native Georgian. I grew up proud of the Stars and Bars in our State flag and on the side of the gym at my high school, where I was a proud Rebel.

THEN I found out that the Confederate Battle Flag was raised to become state flags in the late 1950s as part of an effort to combat the Civil Rights movement.

I haven't worn my class ring since.

Let's not deny racism when it exists or that it is a prevalent component of some people's "Southern Identity."

When we accomplish that, we'll have a lot more justification when we point out "Northern Identity Politics."

IMO

well apparently the Sheriff is looking to charge the vandals that tore down the statue,we will see how far that goes.

ABC

Protesters will face felony charges for toppling a nearly century-old Confederate statue in front of a North Carolina government building, the sheriff said Tuesday. Durham County Sheriff Mike Andrews said some of the protesters who tore down the statue Monday had been identified, and investigators were preparing arrest warrants. "Let me be clear. No one is getting away with what happened yesterday. We will find the people responsible," Andrews said, declining to specify the charges. Law enforcement officers took video throughout the protest but didn't intervene as protesters brought out a ladder, climbed up to attach a rope and then pulled the bronze Confederate soldier from its pedestal. After it fell, some began kicking the statue, while others took photos standing or sitting on it. The protest was in response to violence and a death at a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, over the weekend. Andrews said his staff met with community leaders before the Durham demonstration, and he was aware of the potential for vandalism. But he said he used restraint because of the risk of injuries if deputies moved in. "Had I ordered my deputies to engage a hostile crowd, there would have been serious injuries," he said. "Statues can be replaced. Lives cannot."

That seems reasonable to me, assuming charges are pressed it will lead to an acceptable outcome I think.

Violence and the destruction of property are not components of peaceful protest.

Period.

a reply to: Blaine91555

You're the one that brought up sanitizing history. Tell me. When have you ever seen a Confederate statue that didn't glorify the traitorous CSA?

a reply to: Gryphon66

Sorry that as not my intention. I was born in NYC and all my family is there but I was raised most of my life in Florida. I know what a racist redneck is. Our Mascot in HS was the Rebel too and in the late 80's in St Petersburg we had our share of walk outs and fights based on different views. 96 we had race riots. There was talk of not wanting the mascot anymore. Talk of why is that redneck flag in our gym, etc. I thought it was crazy because when I went home to NY you had ALL kinds of people. There were minorities everywhere. Sure there were differences in areas but it was not the hate I encountered in the South. But I did not let it make me think anyone with a rebel flag is a racist. I am glad I had parents who did not instill that in me.

I was just trying to show that appearances are not always as they seem but perception and prejudice can many times make a normal situation bad.

Again, we are on a slippery slope to a point that will be very hard to return from.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

Question is would you actually accept any suggestion?

Or would the answer be any statue glorified the confederacy?

a reply to: Blaine91555

A statue commemorating a person isn't the same as written history, or do you seriously not compute the difference?

A statue is like the go-to way to honor something, something that shouldn't have been honored in the first place.

None of that has to do with writing history, nor does removing a statue or renaming a road 'unwrite' history.

To not see this clear distinction of honorary memorabilia being accredited as 'history' is nonsense. You don't learn anything from a statue about the actual history anyway, you will have to use the same method that would be used if the statue didn't exist, books and documents, to actually learn about the event.

To me you seem angry about political affiliations, and the Confederates not being celebrated in a literal public space. One would ask why they need feel so special to have a statue for them? You see, this is the question that has nothing to do with History, and has everything to do with the problem.

a reply to: matafuchs

Appearances are not always what they seem, assuredly. There is much wrong in the South to this day ... but there is also much good. I would be the first to demonstrate that Northerners are and have been racist as well, by whatever measure you want to measure by.

I don't know if you remember the occasion in 2015 where a group of folks in Douglasville GA assaulted the birthday party of a 6-year old girl in a public park ... waving, you guessed it, the Confederate flag (as well as guns, knives) while screaming racial epithets.

That was only one group one might argue. Sadly, I know for a fact, that such incidences and the beliefs behind them, are not singular or uncommon here.


There are and have always been people of good heart here, and it is unfair to label all Southerners as racists.

That is why we must stand against racism WHEREVER we find it.

a reply to: SoDumb

Would you be okay with blowing up Mount Rushmore? How far should we go?

originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: SoDumb

Would you be okay with blowing up Mount Rushmore? How far should we go?

I wouldn't bellow that blowing up Mt. Rushmore means they were never Presidents, and that history is lost.

I think you've misconstrued my point(purposefully.), yours isn't similar or relevant.

It's pretty simple, physical monuments aren't "History", they are adoration.
The argument they ARE history is a guided argument for veiled racism etc. because no history is lost destroying a statue, only the honor. Trust me, they know and remember what he did. That's why it was ripped down.

a reply to: Irishhaf

To be fair I could care less. I think if a community wants to remove a Confederate statue they should be allowed to make that decision. Without having to deal with an out of town contingent of Nazis protesting their decision.

I just find it hypocritic that all these people arguing against removal of these statues use phrases like "sanitizing history." And yet it seems to me these statues are doing the exact same thing. They glorify the CSA without addressing the grey and dark issues associated with that rogue nation.

a reply to: thesaneone

Perhaps we could add MLK and Rosa Parks instead?

Maybe Harvey Milk too?

You'd be fine with that, right?

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: thesaneone

Perhaps we could add MLK and Rosa Parks instead?

You'd be fine with that, right?

I say give them a fresh mountain, they deserve their own recognition.

originally posted by: thesaneone

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: thesaneone

Perhaps we could add MLK and Rosa Parks instead?

You'd be fine with that, right?

I say give them a fresh mountain, they deserve their own recognition.

LOL.

Well said.

For the record, Mount Rushmore (and much of Washington DC) is a national monument.

That is unlike towns that are self-determining to take down statues on the public lands.