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Astral Projection/Self-brainwashing?

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posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 09:46 PM
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Originally posted by JoeyC
Obsidian 468:

Did you discover how to project yourself? did you use intructions from other websites? Did you read any books on astral projection?

It sounds like you discovered it for yourself whilst in a deep meditation session, did you use any websites/books to learn how to meditate?

thanks- JoeyC


After my spiritual awakening at age 16, I sort of knew how (though I didn't realize it at the time). I have flipped through a few books on the subject, but really didn't find anything more than good meditation techniques... nothing that really helped me achieve an astral state. More or less I figured it out on my own, after sorting through knowledge gained with my awakwening. My techniques are vastly different than most peoples, though they do still involve meditation, though not to the exent that most people use.

I also never read anything about it on the web (when I was 16, the year was 1991, and the web still wasn't the massive being that it is now - I didn't even have access then). Since I've learned to do it, I never felt the need to research others techniques, since my own work perfectly for me every time.

I'm guessing that you probably won't learn the same way I did, nor could you use the techniques I use. My spiritual self is a little.... different... from most everyone else.




posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 10:11 PM
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Originally posted by Sign Related 2
Those that can astral project were born that able. No one else can do it. But if someone's astral projection makes you think that you once (or more than once) astral projected, then they are just fooling you.

Those that astral project will pay a price alright because they were born hellbound for good reason. These people who do astral project never tell you what all their astral body can do because then you would see that they are evil beings.


I see that you live with much fear of the unknown. Just because a person can astral project does not mean that they are evil. I myself strive for a balance. Some of the things I do, both in mortal life and astrally, may seem evil, but they are to ensure a balance of forces in the universe. Upon reading your further responses to this, I've gathered that you're most likely a Christian (probably non-denominational), so you would understand that without evil, there is no good, and without good, there is no evil. In order for things to exist harmoniously, there must be a balance between extremes. Many that travel astrally believe in a balance. There are, however, those that tend towards evil, and those that tend towards good. All three of these types of travellers are important in maintaining a balance.

Astral travel itself is not inherently evil. It depends on the soul travelling astrally. Just as in the mortal world, people are good, neutral and evil, so it is in the astral. Your tales of having another astral form within your body don't speak of the astral... they speak of possession. Possession is an evil thing, unless invited by the person being possessed. Don't confuse telepathic communication with possession, however.... they're two very different things. I myself have never "possessed" another person. On the other hand, I have given people much desired energy, or certain communications astrally.... though never without permission. My girlfriend and I, for instance, both have very busy schedules, and as such, while we lack time together in the mortal world, we do spend time together astrally. That's certainly not evil. That's something we do so we can still be together, even when we can't.

Perhaps you should dig a little deeper into what is happening to you, so you can realize the truth of the matter. I'll even offer my services to help you.

Astral travel is not evil. It's a form of enlightenment. Only some of the people that use it are evil.

Besides, the fact that you believe people can do these things to you is the only reason they can. The human mind contains many untapped facets, and belief is one of the strongest, and least understood facets of the mind. Belief can move mountains and change reality.



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by Sign Related 2


I want JoeyC to see this.

( RG:why would he not?)

What other person can hear your astral communication without your astral body being in them (streaming communication into, say, their very mind)?

(RG:lol other people allready IN the astral planel, I never once said I go INTO other people to comune within them)

You've just prooved to JoeyC and others, I would think, (because you know I already know of the evil) that beings as yourself are liars.

(RG: prove that......without name calling, so far your comunication is the ONLY Evil thing I have encountered dealing with this issue)

I even spoke of that fear of death in a reply in another person's post who would experience that very kind of fear-

(RG: all humans are born with the survival intstinct, hence a fear of death...at least normal human beings)

So, when you release that fear of death-- though you wouldnt dare tell me--I bet there is some victim that has to put up with it. In the sense department of the body they can take over it--make one in their sleep see their dreams for instance. They can cause sleep paralysis with dreams--if that's not counted as taking over a body, then what is in your falsely flawed opinion?

(RG: um, I wouldnt dare to tell you WHAT exactly? no matter how many times I read this paragraph, I cant understand it.....though I try)

You say all my selves when you mix yourself in other selves for communicating?
(RG: hu? YOUR the one saying ALL MY SELVES...I was quoting you...)

You know, some people are obvious hypocrites who be evil indeed ...

(RG: I begin to wonder if English is the langauge you speak?)

O yeah, NOT inherantly Evil? You are indeed right on that because they "be" evil (O yes, this matter concerns something before being born here in the world). Something one simply "be" is not given. For they are chosen of their own self. But they do try to make those not evil inherit evil things.

(RG: once again Im wondering WHAT this means???)

Speaking of communication... You know their are people that astral project so that they can cause someone else a mental problem of hearing voices. That aint even a question because I know you know of this (tell-hell-is).

(RG: no, this is NEW to me.....being able to OOBE has evertything to do with my Spiritual growth, and NOTHING to do with other people...and try as I might to UNDERSTAND what your trying to convey, I feel lost, thinking English is not your first language)


[edit on 9-2-2005 by Sign Related 2]


I say "very interesting" as I peek out through a plant..................

I know I cant be the only person finding this comunication to be really strange....



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 10:58 PM
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Originally posted by obsidian468

Originally posted by Sign Related 2
Those that can astral project were born that able. No one else can do it. But if someone's astral projection makes you think that you once (or more than once) astral projected, then they are just fooling you.

Those that astral project will pay a price alright because they were born hellbound for good reason. These people who do astral project never tell you what all their astral body can do because then you would see that they are evil beings.


I see that you live with much fear of the unknown. Just because a person can astral project does not mean that they are evil. I myself strive for a balance. Some of the things I do, both in mortal life and astrally, may seem evil, but they are to ensure a balance of forces in the universe. Upon reading your further responses to this, I've gathered that you're most likely a Christian (probably non-denominational), so you would understand that without evil, there is no good, and without good, there is no evil. In order for things to exist harmoniously, there must be a balance between extremes. Many that travel astrally believe in a balance. There are, however, those that tend towards evil, and those that tend towards good. All three of these types of travellers are important in maintaining a balance.

Astral travel itself is not inherently evil. It depends on the soul travelling astrally. Just as in the mortal world, people are good, neutral and evil, so it is in the astral. Your tales of having another astral form within your body don't speak of the astral... they speak of possession. Possession is an evil thing, unless invited by the person being possessed. Don't confuse telepathic communication with possession, however.... they're two very different things. I myself have never "possessed" another person. On the other hand, I have given people much desired energy, or certain communications astrally.... though never without permission. My girlfriend and I, for instance, both have very busy schedules, and as such, while we lack time together in the mortal world, we do spend time together astrally. That's certainly not evil. That's something we do so we can still be together, even when we can't.

Perhaps you should dig a little deeper into what is happening to you, so you can realize the truth of the matter. I'll even offer my services to help you.

Astral travel is not evil. It's a form of enlightenment. Only some of the people that use it are evil.

Besides, the fact that you believe people can do these things to you is the only reason they can. The human mind contains many untapped facets, and belief is one of the strongest, and least understood facets of the mind. Belief can move mountains and change reality.



I'm not in any religion. Though I read the gospels and see a truth different than what religion or religious folks would try to persuad me to see. Since you know of Christianity, then why dont you tell people about the certain kind of people that were and be behind God and the devil? Certain of the people who originally wrote books that are in the bible were inspiried by their ability of astral projection (the power of God--Yes, indeed if the shoe fits, it fits perfectly). Why dont you tell people that people that atsral project are behind that Holy Ghost they may have felt while in church?


And no, I do not live with fear of the unknown. Belief aint got anything to do with it. Do you not exist? If so, then belief aint got anything to do with the fact that astral projection can come upon another person. If you claim you ask for permission then you're omitting by that alone that you can do so without some other person having to believe in the first place. Tisk tisk.

A "try" at possession is something your kind can do now. Huanting is something your kind can do.

Matter of fact, why dont you tell people that only those humans that astral project become full ghosts after their human death? These other people, including myself, dont become ghosts after our human body dies. It must be hell trapped as a full ghost with no human body. I've experienced even a full ghost of your kind before. And you know what? That person did evil things to me only at the time. And do you know where that angel went some time after physically hurting me? Got taken on into the sun. And to hell becomes unto hell soon, watch.

You know I surely reject the notion of your services. This aint a matter of action concerning evil, it's a matter of evil being the self itself. I tell you, if it were possible the devil could act holy and good and balanced--But the truth remains that they are hellbound no matter what. I sure know for a simple fact that if someone is hellbound, then they are evil as of how (not why, but how).



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 11:01 PM
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Originally posted by theRiverGoddess

Originally posted by Sign Related 2


I want JoeyC to see this.

( RG:why would he not?)

What other person can hear your astral communication without your astral body being in them (streaming communication into, say, their very mind)?

(RG:lol other people allready IN the astral planel, I never once said I go INTO other people to comune within them)

You've just prooved to JoeyC and others, I would think, (because you know I already know of the evil) that beings as yourself are liars.

(RG: prove that......without name calling, so far your comunication is the ONLY Evil thing I have encountered dealing with this issue)

I even spoke of that fear of death in a reply in another person's post who would experience that very kind of fear-

(RG: all humans are born with the survival intstinct, hence a fear of death...at least normal human beings)

So, when you release that fear of death-- though you wouldnt dare tell me--I bet there is some victim that has to put up with it. In the sense department of the body they can take over it--make one in their sleep see their dreams for instance. They can cause sleep paralysis with dreams--if that's not counted as taking over a body, then what is in your falsely flawed opinion?

(RG: um, I wouldnt dare to tell you WHAT exactly? no matter how many times I read this paragraph, I cant understand it.....though I try)

You say all my selves when you mix yourself in other selves for communicating?
(RG: hu? YOUR the one saying ALL MY SELVES...I was quoting you...)

You know, some people are obvious hypocrites who be evil indeed ...

(RG: I begin to wonder if English is the langauge you speak?)

O yeah, NOT inherantly Evil? You are indeed right on that because they "be" evil (O yes, this matter concerns something before being born here in the world). Something one simply "be" is not given. For they are chosen of their own self. But they do try to make those not evil inherit evil things.

(RG: once again Im wondering WHAT this means???)

Speaking of communication... You know their are people that astral project so that they can cause someone else a mental problem of hearing voices. That aint even a question because I know you know of this (tell-hell-is).

(RG: no, this is NEW to me.....being able to OOBE has evertything to do with my Spiritual growth, and NOTHING to do with other people...and try as I might to UNDERSTAND what your trying to convey, I feel lost, thinking English is not your first language)


[edit on 9-2-2005 by Sign Related 2]


I say "very interesting" as I peek out through a plant..................

I know I cant be the only person finding this comunication to be really strange....




You're see through to the point I need not comment statement for statement with you.



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 12:18 AM
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Originally posted by Sign Related 2
I'm not in any religion. Though I read the gospels and see a truth different than what religion or religious folks would try to persuad me to see. Since you know of Christianity, then why dont you tell people about the certain kind of people that were and be behind God and the devil? Certain of the people who originally wrote books that are in the bible were inspiried by their ability of astral projection (the power of God--Yes, indeed if the shoe fits, it fits perfectly). Why dont you tell people that people that atsral project are behind that Holy Ghost they may have felt while in church?


I am not a Christian. In fact, my free thought caused me to be excommunicated at age 14 (that's a different story for a different thread). Christians won't listen to my views on religion any more than you would seem to. I don't believe in the Christian concept of "God", and I don't believe in the Christian concept of the "Devil". I acknowledge they exist, if only as an entity formed from belief. I don't herald their teachings or existence as gospel. They are inconsequntial to my knowledge of the world and beyond.



And no, I do not live with fear of the unknown. Belief aint got anything to do with it. Do you not exist? If so, then belief aint got anything to do with the fact that astral projection can come upon another person. If you claim you ask for permission then you're omitting by that alone that you can do so without some other person having to believe in the first place. Tisk tisk.


I never stated who I ask permission from. Always, it is a person who has a similar belief structure to my own, and has previously asked for help from me regarding whatever issue may be important to them at the time. Never have I tried to infringe upon the mind of someone who does not believe in the good that can come from my actions in the otherworld. Often, when I have helped someone who has asked for my assistance, it is through their *belief* that I can do some good for them that it has happened. A person's perception of reality is 100% of their belief in reality. This is a well known psychological fact. If a person does not believe in the same things as I do, I will never impose my beliefs on them (and that does include through astral travel). It is a person's right to believe what they will. People only believe what they are comfortable with, and therefore typically won't (not can't) believe outside of their current realm of belief. To them, this is their reality. They are the only ones that can change that. To illustrate my point: Look at any given wall in your house. It's smooth (maybe a little texture from the paint), right? Now take a lamp, flashlight, whatever, and shine it on a wall from a low angle (holding the light source right next to the wall, and projecting it along the wall). See how many imperfections you now see that you didn't see before? This has just changed your belief, and therefore your reality of the nature of that wall. Previously, you had regarded it as a wall, smooth and flat. Now you see the imperfection inherent in that wall. You now believe that wall to be full of imperfection, and therefore have changed your reality.

To conclude that thought, belief has everything to do with reality.


A "try" at possession is something your kind can do now. Huanting is something your kind can do.


Yes, it is possible from astral projection. It is not the same however. Astral projection is a form of existence in a plane that parallels our own. The biggest difference in the Astral plane from our primary material plane is that of time/space. Time and space have little to no meaning in the astral plane, and therefore is it possible to travel great distances within the astral in a fraction of the time it would take in our mortal, material plane. Given that lack of space constraint in the astral plane, it also virtually eliminates time from that plane. The astral plane is formed much like a wheel, where time loops upon itself. Therefore spacial travel in the astral plane can also be travel through time. Any experienced astral traveller will confirm this. It is this reality of the astral plane that explains phenomenon such as premonition. However, the astral plane is also subject to the multiverse theory in that no time is set in what can happen, which explains why many of those giften with premonition often turn out to be wrong.

[The multiverse theory explains the relativity of free choice to time. Every choice that any one of us makes changes the time line. In essence stating that the time line as we know it splits many trillions upon trillions of times a day]

Possession and hauntings are possible from the astral plane through finding a gateway back to the material plane, and not re-entering ones own body. Often this is a very dangerous route to take for any but the most experienced astral travellers, as stepping through that gateway will often sever the "silver thread" that links a soul with its mortal body. Once that thread is severed, it's difficult, though not impossible, to once again find ones mortal body on the plane, since it encompasses so many different times, places, and realities. I have heard of hauntings that don't fit in their locations, per the history of an area. It is often hauntings such as these that are caused by someone not being able to find their way back after attempting a less-than-honorable action. Often, the hauntings of this type will begin at the same time that elsewhere a body is found, suddenly dead of unknown causes. Entities that meet their mortal death in this way deserve what they get. They toyed with things they were not ready for.


Matter of fact, why dont you tell people that only those humans that astral project become full ghosts after their human death? These other people, including myself, dont become ghosts after our human body dies. It must be hell trapped as a full ghost with no human body. I've experienced even a full ghost of your kind before. And you know what? That person did evil things to me only at the time. And do you know where that angel went some time after physically hurting me? Got taken on into the sun. And to hell becomes unto hell soon, watch.


I do not tell people what to do. We, as humans are gifted with free will, and in my opinion, it is far more evil to force a person to do something, thereby going against our free will, than anything else anyone could muster.

I have a lot of experience with ghosts, non-corporeal entities, shadows, and other of the like. Only once have I met another entity that has been a ghost trapped due to their astral travel. Most of the spirits I have met while treading in haunted places don't even know they're dead, let alone have ever astrally travelled. I know of a soldier that I spoke of in another thread that didn't realize he was dead until I showed him. All he wanted in life, and all he wants in afterlife was to protect those important to him - in his mind, all fellow Americans. He had no experience with the occult, didn't believe in astral travel, and simply lived to do the best he could. He remains here after his death to try and help those that he couldn't in his mortal life. He is truly a good soul.

I know that I myself will not become a trapped ghost upon my death (how do I know this? Find the current thread on old souls, and read my post). Most of us that travel astrally will not become trapped here after death. As I stated previously, astral travel is a form of enlightenment - a means to see beyond the physical world. Astral travel, for those that use it properly, is a gift to further enlightenment - to commune with ancestors - to ask guidance from other spirits. It is not primarily a means of harrassing others, though it is possible to do this, if the gift is misused. Those that astral travel are simply a step closer to the spirit world. Astral travel is a gift used to show that death is not something to be feared, but rather something to be cherished, and looked forward to as our mortal years end. There are many realms of existence besides the material world that we share. Astral travel is simply a glimpse into one of them.

I hate to burst your bubble, but evil spirits are allowed to remain, just as good and neutral spirits are. It is only in extreme cases that a spirit is condemned to destruction. By extreme, I don't only mean extremes of evil, but also extremes of good. Upsetting the balance is something that cannot be tolerated by the creators or those of their direct lineage. "Hell" as you call it is not only for those of evil, but those of good that go far beyond tolerable means. As I stated previously, the balance must be kept, and it is those of my generation, my father's generation, and the generation of the creators that deem what it acceptable and what it not.


You know I surely reject the notion of your services. This aint a matter of action concerning evil, it's a matter of evil being the self itself. I tell you, if it were possible the devil could act holy and good and balanced--But the truth remains that they are hellbound no matter what. I sure know for a simple fact that if someone is hellbound, then they are evil as of how (not why, but how).


I expected you to decline my offer, but it remains valid should you ever choose to take me up on it. On your words of the devil, isn't it the devil whom was cast out of heaven because he chose to exercise free will? Satan was nothing more than an advocate of the human race. Read the bible again if you doubt my argument. Satan was cast out of heaven, after questioning God's will, and acting against God's wishes. He was a humanist. Name me one person that has *never* acted against God's will (ie: commit a sin), and I will cease this debate, with you as the winner.

Hell is not a place that exists, nor is heaven. After death, it is the astral realm that accepts us, good or evil. The astral realm is a place of spirits, those that have lived, those that never lived, and those that defy explanation. Because it is so much more than human consiousness, I have taken to calling it the Otherworld. Semantics aside, however, we all end up in the astral sooner or later, whether through astral projection or death, and we all await our next lifetime, advice from others, and lessons to be learned.

Also, define evil for me. To you, is evil an act against humanity? Is it an expression of free will (that may or may not go along with "God's way")? Is it an act that you define as unjust within your perception of reality? Evil is a concept, never well defined. The creators don't view things in a means of good and evil. To them, life exists, and every spirit living a mortal life just needs more lifetimes to learn the truths before being able to transcend. To them, a living spirit cannot be "good" or "evil", but rather in need of more lessons, or in need of fewer lessons. There is no good or evil. The definition varies between every person or entity. Do you believe that David Koresh was not doing what was "good" in his own eyes? To us, he may be "evil", but to himself, he was good. It's all a matter of perception and belief, which brings me full-circle to conclude my arguments.



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 02:49 AM
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nicely stated, obsidian.
I find it interesting, after 30 or so years as a traveller and investigator into anomalous experiences, that an inordinate number of we like-minded, like-experienced, individuals are "recovered" christians

Couldn''t be a co-ing-kee-dink, eh?
bubbabak



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 03:03 AM
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I have tried Robert Bruces methods of AP and it did work for me. One method that worked extremley well was the "rope method" of getting out of body.Those interested and have tried and failed at AP should try this method.
Parker



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 03:47 AM
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Robert Bruce is a pretty great guy. I recommend his books. At his website you can even listen to some of his interviews with folks like George Noory and Whitley Strieber.

Anyway, as far as I'm aware, anyone can astral project. It's a natural ability that we all possess because we all have a spirit (or whatever you want to call it). I got into it on accident, because I was consciously aware during a random projection in which I found myself floating down the stairs from the second floor to the first floor of my house. I was sleeping on the third.

From there, I began to research again (I had begun to a few months earlier, but got bored with it because I was always too scared to follow through with it (and still am, but I'm sometimes forced out anyway)). I have Robert Bruce's Astral Dynamics and his more recent Mastering Astral Projection. Very good techniques and what have you.

Oh: I'm also an ex-Christian and am just now getting back into 'mastering' the astral.

Also, I forget whoever said it, but Robert Bruce doesn't claim that anything we travel to in the astral is in a separate dimension. He describes them as 'planes' also.

It's not evil to astral project, by the way. That's a pretty ignorant presumption. If you've ever wondered what it would be like to soar through the clouds (at any speed) and fly wherever you want to, astral project to find out. In a word: beautiful. My next goal is to go into outer space.

It's all very innocent. Like anything, however, it's what you choose to do with it.

You can sleep on a pillow, or you can suffocate someone with it. What's in your heart?



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by Bubbabak
nicely stated, obsidian.
I find it interesting, after 30 or so years as a traveller and investigator into anomalous experiences, that an inordinate number of we like-minded, like-experienced, individuals are "recovered" christians

Couldn''t be a co-ing-kee-dink, eh?
bubbabak


I think it goes beyond coincidence and into the realm of logic and reason. Those of us that have seen the illogical nature of the Bible, and the contradictions and half truths listed in its pages, tend to reject the faith as a whole, and look beyond it for greater truths. Personally, I think the Bible is a nice morality tale, and a fascinating work of fiction. There is some truth in it, but no more than I would claim that the "MiB" films contained truth (you know, small basis in fact, but mostly just fiction). It's the longest urban legend known to man.



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 02:14 PM
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Obsidian468:

Why must there be a balance kept between good and evil? Surely it would be beneficial to everyone if the truly evil are outcast and the most benevolent souls are kept.

You said that very good people and very evil people both upset the balance. You say they are sent to 'hell'? is this place one for punishment or a place for those that someone (God?) has chosen to exile- a sort of soul time out, because to me it sounds like the latter.

Thanks

Also there was a bit of confusion with the quote i mentioned earlier when talking about the affirmations. That was in fact a direct quote straight out of Robert Bruce's latest book Mastering Astral Projection. He does use the word dimension but probably because it is an easier concept to grasp for beginners. His other book called Astral Dynamics which i also purchased explains EVERYTHING to do with up to date research on astral projection and out of body experiences, I assure you he does know what he is talking about.

Respect- JoeyC



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by obsidian468

I don't believe in the Christian concept of "God", and I don't believe in the Christian concept of the "Devil". I acknowledge they exist, if only as an entity formed from belief. I don't herald their teachings or existence as gospel. They are inconsequntial to my knowledge of the world and beyond.



^^^You know, everything found gets a label. "The devil" someone describes can be the hollywood version whereas "the devil" I describe can be anyone who is astral body related or evil period. That's just how labels go upon descriptions in particular. Labels mean nothing much because it's simply just as long as you get what's being described. But no one will continue on describing something over and over in full when they can just leave it summed up with a certain label.



I never stated who I ask permission from. Always, it is a person who has a similar belief structure to my own, and has previously asked for help from me regarding whatever issue may be important to them at the time. Never have I tried to infringe upon the mind of someone who does not believe in the good that can come from my actions in the otherworld. Often, when I have helped someone who has asked for my assistance, it is through their *belief* that I can do some good for them that it has happened. A person's perception of reality is 100% of their belief in reality. This is a well known psychological fact. If a person does not believe in the same things as I do, I will never impose my beliefs on them (and that does include through astral travel). It is a person's right to believe what they will. People only believe what they are comfortable with, and therefore typically won't (not can't) believe outside of their current realm of belief. To them, this is their reality. They are the only ones that can change that. To illustrate my point: Look at any given wall in your house. It's smooth (maybe a little texture from the paint), right? Now take a lamp, flashlight, whatever, and shine it on a wall from a low angle (holding the light source right next to the wall, and projecting it along the wall). See how many imperfections you now see that you didn't see before? This has just changed your belief, and therefore your reality of the nature of that wall. Previously, you had regarded it as a wall, smooth and flat. Now you see the imperfection inherent in that wall. You now believe that wall to be full of imperfection, and therefore have changed your reality.

To conclude that thought, belief has everything to do with reality.



^^^Let me show you an example: Jack doesnt believe you can astral project. But you know you can. And so you astral project Jack some communication into his very mind. Jack still doesnt believe you can.

^^^That doesnt change the "fact" that you did send Jack some communication. Jack's belief is seperate from the fact in that case. And since Jack didnt believe it, before or after, that still didnt cut your astral body off from communicating with Jack.



Yes, it is possible from astral projection. It is not the same however. Astral projection is a form of existence in a plane that parallels our own. The biggest difference in the Astral plane from our primary material plane is that of time/space. Time and space have little to no meaning in the astral plane, and therefore is it possible to travel great distances within the astral in a fraction of the time it would take in our mortal, material plane. Given that lack of space constraint in the astral plane, it also virtually eliminates time from that plane. The astral plane is formed much like a wheel, where time loops upon itself. Therefore spacial travel in the astral plane can also be travel through time. Any experienced astral traveller will confirm this. It is this reality of the astral plane that explains phenomenon such as premonition. However, the astral plane is also subject to the multiverse theory in that no time is set in what can happen, which explains why many of those giften with premonition often turn out to be wrong.



Time can be something froze, as in, still (one time). Or time can be something changing, as in, a passing of things. Different things together changing at different rates can be perceived of as time looping.

About premonitions... How they turn out to be wrong concerning premonition is the question. For astral projections can be for deceiving someone else so that that someone else thinks/believes something is going to happen. And if the one astral projecting is craft they can make whatever it is come true manipulation wise.




[The multiverse theory explains the relativity of free choice to time. Every choice that any one of us makes changes the time line. In essence stating that the time line as we know it splits many trillions upon trillions of times a day].


^^^You know every single thing found in existence can be perceived of as having it's own time. Certain things of time aren't significant, and so of course we change certain things of time. You know something significant happening in time and with time can be counted as a day (that's reguardless of the date and the light from the sun shining upon a particular section of the earth).



Possession and hauntings are possible from the astral plane through finding a gateway back to the material plane, and not re-entering ones own body.



^^^re-entering ones body can mean making the astral body regenerate again. I dont think you're implying the astral body in the sense that it enters back into the human body of the one who can astral project. I know humans that astral project tend more so toward keeping the depth of their regenerating astral self away from their human self.



Often this is a very dangerous route to take for any but the most experienced astral travellers, as stepping through that gateway will often sever the "silver thread" that links a soul with its mortal body.


^^^But one day they'll find their astral body, they'd want before them instead of in them, in their very bosom. That's when the two shall be one. Which is when the astral body as the angels turn against them. How long will that severing go on? Up until the "lest" coming.



Once that thread is severed, it's difficult, though not impossible, to once again find ones mortal body on the plane, since it encompasses so many different times, places, and realities.


^^^But surely now your kind is able to veiw their human forms from a distance.



I have heard of hauntings that don't fit in their locations, per the history of an area. It is often hauntings such as these that are caused by someone not being able to find their way back after attempting a less-than-honorable action. Often, the hauntings of this type will begin at the same time that elsewhere a body is found, suddenly dead of unknown causes. Entities that meet their mortal death in this way deserve what they get. They toyed with things they were not ready for.


^^^Deserve what they get? Are you implying they, like the full ghost that harmed my person, deserved to have gotten me?


I do not tell people what to do. We, as humans are gifted with free will, and in my opinion, it is far more evil to force a person to do something, thereby going against our free will, than anything else anyone could muster.


^^^But you're free to rome about throughout what is indeed your body (this world). So it's hypocritical in what you say there about who all's free will.



I have a lot of experience with ghosts, non-corporeal entities, shadows, and other of the like. Only once have I met another entity that has been a ghost trapped due to their astral travel. Most of the spirits I have met while treading in haunted places don't even know they're dead, let alone have ever astrally travelled.


^^^HAHAHA, that's because they "live" as a full ghost at that point. And the humans that astral project can keep their astral body (angel/ghost/spirit/Son) present somewhere else for a long time.



I know of a soldier that I spoke of in another thread that didn't realize he was dead until I showed him. All he wanted in life, and all he wants in afterlife was to protect those important to him - in his mind, all fellow Americans. He had no experience with the occult, didn't believe in astral travel, and simply lived to do the best he could. He remains here after his death to try and help those that he couldn't in his mortal life. He is truly a good soul.


^^^After human death your kind remains period. After being a full ghost for a while they become taken into another section of their body (this world--since it is your kind's true source). Where? Into the sun because of the rebirth of the soul (rebirth of the soul is the reconfiguring of the soul). The bad (or sould I say good?) news is, is that their 'self' remains in that there relocating.

"Wheresoever the body is, there will the eagles be gathered together"

^^^The main spirit portian of your kind's astral body is linked with what is of the sun's.


I know that I myself will not become a trapped ghost upon my death (how do I know this? Find the current thread on old souls, and read my post).


^^^I read through your posts in that topic. You wont be a ghost "for long" in one sence, but the Holy Ghost (even the Spirit of truth) will come unto you. And you will become as a sensative man of the sun and in the sun. You know, some wish they could just disbelief themselves out of something, but it dont go like that.


Most of us that travel astrally will not become trapped here after death. As I stated previously, astral travel is a form of enlightenment - a means to see beyond the physical world. Astral travel, for those that use it properly, is a gift to further enlightenment - to commune with ancestors - to ask guidance from other spirits. It is not primarily a means of harrassing others, though it is possible to do this, if the gift is misused. Those that astral travel are simply a step closer to the spirit world. Astral travel is a gift used to show that death is not something to be feared, but rather something to be cherished, and looked forward to as our mortal years end. There are many realms of existence besides the material world that we share. Astral travel is simply a glimpse into one of them.

I hate to burst your bubble, but evil spirits are allowed to remain, just as good and neutral spirits are.


^^^I'm glad I wont remain here, though what I will have commanded will. Plus, death is something that your kind should fear. Your kind will live and die at the same time in hell upon a certain hour coming (and pay no mind to thinking 'hour', as in, what you read on a digital watch even though a digital watch's hour can also be when that certain hour come).


I expected you to decline my offer, but it remains valid should you ever choose to take me up on it. On your words of the devil, isn't it the devil whom was cast out of heaven because he chose to exercise free will?


^^^That's that fairy tale devil you speak of.


Hell is not a place that exists, nor is heaven.


^^^No, hell and heaven are one in the same. The energy your kind uses soul wise is the heavens that do reveal the hell in depth. Hell is a state, person, place, and a thing all rolled up as one.



After death, it is the astral realm that accepts us, good or evil.


^^^Not us, but your kind if that's what you're implying by that "us".


The astral realm is a place of spirits, those that have lived, those that never lived, and those that defy explanation. Because it is so much more than human consiousness, I have taken to calling it the Otherworld. Semantics aside, however, we all end up in the astral sooner or later, whether through astral projection or death, and we all await our next lifetime, advice from others, and lessons to be learned.


^^^So far you sound as if you know others as yourself that have yet to leave this current life time of being here in this world.

What do you think your next life time will be like? And where do you think your next life time will be?


Also, define evil for me. To you, is evil an act against humanity?


^^^Evil is dark. Evil is foundation wise how dark. That's how deep it's planted. It is as something planted before humankind's perception came into the picture period. But can and had come into perception the master of the house wise. Right now what's considered evil upon earth is scattered. But there will be a time when things are plainly revealed.



Is it an expression of free will (that may or may not go along with "God's way")? Is it an act that you define as unjust within your perception of reality? Evil is a concept, never well defined. The creators don't view things in a means of good and evil. To them, life exists, and every spirit living a mortal life just needs more lifetimes to learn the truths before being able to transcend. To them, a living spirit cannot be "good" or "evil", but rather in need of more lessons, or in need of fewer lessons. There is no good or evil. The definition varies between every person or entity. Do you believe that David Koresh was not doing what was "good" in his own eyes? To us, he may be "evil", but to himself, he was good. It's all a matter of perception and belief, which brings me full-circle to conclude my arguments.


^^^You know, if 'the self' of you transcends it will be as though independant from the very hell that shall be tormenting it? That kind of freedom is one hell of a freedom. Freedom can be a pardox, and even appear hypocritical. But nevertheless, it is how come hell in general reveals one as the hypocrites just as the parable does of the poor begger and the rich man in Luke 16 (kjv). Also the "elect" and the "children of light" mentioned in the gospels reveal your very kind. If it were possible they (the astral body) shall deceive the very elect (such as your very self).

Even though your kind as human beings can be seperate from their astral bodies, it still remains that the two are one 'self' (even 'mind') wise. And even 'soul' wise and 'body' (even 'foundation') wise. It's like that fact can't be excaped from.

[edit on 10-2-2005 by Sign Related 2]



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by JoeyC
Obsidian468:

Why must there be a balance kept between good and evil? Surely it would be beneficial to everyone if the truly evil are outcast and the most benevolent souls are kept.

You said that very good people and very evil people both upset the balance. You say they are sent to 'hell'? is this place one for punishment or a place for those that someone (God?) has chosen to exile- a sort of soul time out, because to me it sounds like the latter.


The answer to that is simple. Without evil, there can be no good. Without good, there can be no evil. If one was to be completely cast out, the other would soon crumble. The concept of good is only in relation to its opposite, evil, and vice versa. Both extremes are necessary for growth and change. Evil causes good to change and/or grow and vice versa. Because of this, both are necessary. We keep the balance so that one cannot outgrow the other, and thus keeping ourselves growing, changing, and evolving.

An extreme to either side of the spectrum offsets the balance and slows change. "Hell" itself does not exist. I simply used it as an easy-to-understand demonstrative term. There really is no central place of exile for those that disrupt the balance. Typically they are dealt with on a case by case basis, and sometimes imprisoned, occasionally (rarely) destroyed, or otherwise punished in such a manner as to restore balance. The 'someone' that has the final decision on those to be dealt with are the members of the Council, so, in essence, a god... whatever name you choose to call them by. Punishment is very much based on the entity in question, and what the nature of the balance upset was. It's a very personal thing.



Also there was a bit of confusion with the quote i mentioned earlier when talking about the affirmations. That was in fact a direct quote straight out of Robert Bruce's latest book Mastering Astral Projection. He does use the word dimension but probably because it is an easier concept to grasp for beginners. His other book called Astral Dynamics which i also purchased explains EVERYTHING to do with up to date research on astral projection and out of body experiences, I assure you he does know what he is talking about.


My apologies, then. As I said, I have not read anything by him on the subject. The quote you posted just sounded very.... trite... for lack of a better word. If his methods work for you, then by all means, practice them. As I said, everyone's methods are different, and through trial and error, you'll eventually find one that works for you.



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 03:17 PM
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^^^A must needs be you speak of. Since evil must needs be, why try to cover it up with balance? An evil tendency and evil urge speaks miles that there is a deeply rooted evil as that certain someone self wise.

I'm not doing good things, and then, to myself go, "O" dear, now I must do evil things for balance! I'd be one dark evil fool if I were like that.

But you know what? The truth of the matter is that since evil must needs be so shall revenge be likewise.

I tell you, if the master of the house had not set a trap for the evil so that the evil be sectioned off, we that are not evil would be doomed into the senseless instanity the evil ones would continually bring forth.

Why dont you, obsidian, tell us the evil you do (have done) as apart of the balance you yourself speak of? And dont let the cat hold your tongue back. Tell us the evil you do human wise and astral wise.



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by Sign Related 2

^^^You know, everything found gets a label. "The devil" someone describes can be the hollywood version whereas "the devil" I describe can be anyone who is astral body related or evil period. That's just how labels go upon descriptions in particular. Labels mean nothing much because it's simply just as long as you get what's being described. But no one will continue on describing something over and over in full when they can just leave it summed up with a certain label.


Ah, the classic "a rose by any other name" syndrome. Well, now that you've cleared up your usage of the term, I may be able to better respond to your statements. You must admit, though, your preferred terminology does already have a concept associated with it that is quite different from what you're actually trying to convey. You will unjustly shift people's views on what you speak of in doing this.




^^^Let me show you an example: Jack doesnt believe you can astral project. But you know you can. And so you astral project Jack some communication into his very mind. Jack still doesnt believe you can.

^^^That doesnt change the "fact" that you did send Jack some communication. Jack's belief is seperate from the fact in that case. And since Jack didnt believe it, before or after, that still didnt cut your astral body off from communicating with Jack.


Apparently, you missed my point here. I will not go astral simply to prove to someone that it exists. Whether or not someone else believes it exists is wholly unimportant to me. I know it exists, and that is all that matters to me. If I have communication for Jack, I will communicate it to him just as every other human does so, by use of spoken or written word, completely mundane. Also, I'm not sure if you're insinuating here that I cannot control who I communicate with when I am astral. I assure you, in the astral, I can control my communication just as easily as I can in the mundane world. I do not send telepathic messages to people while astral unless it is someone that accepts and desires it. As I previously stated, that acceptance and desire is stated in the mundane world before an attempt at astral communication is ever made.



About premonitions... How they turn out to be wrong concerning premonition is the question. For astral projections can be for deceiving someone else so that that someone else thinks/believes something is going to happen. And if the one astral projecting is craft they can make whatever it is come true manipulation wise.


Premonition is wrong more often than it is right. This is because the person having the premonition is perceiving the future alongonly one timeline. By the time the event perceived actually happens, the timeline has split trillions upon trillions of times, and more likely than not, the event doesn't happen in the percieved timeline. The percieved event does happen somewhere, on one of the virtually infinite parallel timelines that exist. Premonitions being wrong is simply a matter of quantum physics regarding time, not a matter of harrassment or misinformation by an astral traveller.

On the off chance that an astral traveller does implant a false premonition into someone's head, and then manipulates events to cause the premonition to come true, is it then any less valid a premonition? Event is percieved, and then happens. Sounds like a basic premonition to me. Granted, the method of causing things to happen in this way is not something that I agree with, and is typically very frowned upon by anyone with respect for astral travel.




Possession and hauntings are possible from the astral plane through finding a gateway back to the material plane, and not re-entering ones own body.



^^^re-entering ones body can mean making the astral body regenerate again. I dont think you're implying the astral body in the sense that it enters back into the human body of the one who can astral project. I know humans that astral project tend more so toward keeping the depth of their regenerating astral self away from their human self.


I think you've missed my point here. Gateways between the astral and physical plane exist everywhere. An astral traveller can return to the physical world through a different gate than he entered from. This will cause his spirit to exist, without a physical form in the physical world, much like a ghost. This is a dangerous thing for the unexperienced, however, as it can sever the cord that ties one's soul to their physical body. If that cord is severed, the physical body dies.

Also, astral forms don't need to regenerate. They draw upon energy available from natural sources in the physical and spirit worldto keep themselves sustained, much like our physical bodies eat food that is widely available in the physical world.

Finally, you state that people who astrally project tend to keep their astral selves away from their physical bodies. Quite the contrary. The astral self is nothing more than one's own soul. It's something that's very important to keep within oneself. Without your soul, you can't have a physical body. Without your soul, you die.

If you're speaking of "astral forms" that possess a living body that is not their own, then you're not talking about the same thing I am. There are entities that do this. Your average astral traveller is not it. My soul (astral form) is as much a part of my physical body as my own arm is. By learning to travel astrally, I have learned to project my soul into the spirit world, and temporarily seperate my physical and spiritual bodies. In practice, it's little more than dying without my heart stopping. I am not a body jumping "devil" as you would say. I am a human that has learned a degree of enlightenment that allows me to seperate spirit from body. The two are one. Every human astral traveller is the same way.



^^^But one day they'll find their astral body, they'd want before them instead of in them, in their very bosom. That's when the two shall be one. Which is when the astral body as the angels turn against them. How long will that severing go on? Up until the "lest" coming.


If the cord is severed, they remain permanently in their astral body, because, as I stated previously, the astral body is the same as the soul. As far as the remainder of what you say here, I'm sorry, but you have lost me. Astral body = soul. Soul = astral body. They are one in the same.


^^^But surely now your kind is able to veiw their human forms from a distance.


Most cannot, actually. Only the most experienced of astral travellers can find their body without the silver thread. This is because most astral travellers don't know enough about the workings of the otherworld to be able to locate their body on the physical plane through time and space. One step in the astral world could take you from your home to the other side of the galaxy, a number of years into the past or future. Without that silver thread to guide one back to their body, they may as well stop trying. Even if their body did survive without a link to the soul, it would be long dead of natural causes by the time they found their way back to their original point of entry. Just because time and space don't really exist astrally, doesn't mean that astral travel ceases time in the physical world.



^^^Deserve what they get? Are you implying they, like the full ghost that harmed my person, deserved to have gotten me?


That is not what I am implying at all. If you were harmed by a spirit, that is indeed tragic, and I am sorry to hear that. What I mean by "deserving what they get" is that the person that tried to explore farther than his knowledge would allow is suffering the consequences of their actions, thereby deserving what they got, as far as having their silver thread severed, and losing their physical body. If the spirit is trapped here, it's quite possible that it is being either punished or taught a lesson. If it is harming the living, then it's obviously not learning its lesson. If neither of these are the case, then it has simply lost sight of whatever gateway it used to appear in the physical realm, and is possibly quite upset for having gotten himself trapped. Whatever the reason is, this spirit is suffering the consequences of his actions.



^^^But you're free to rome about throughout what is indeed your body (this world). So it's hypocritical in what you say there about who all's free will.


I am free to roam in my own physical body because it is a part of me. I am the only one I have control over. I do have influence on this world, the same as any other human. I vote. I speak. I exist here. I do not force anyone to do anything against their will. I exercise my free will, and allow those that exist in this universe with me to exercise their own free will. Such is the way of my kind.



^^^HAHAHA, that's because they "live" as a full ghost at that point. And the humans that astral project can keep their astral body (angel/ghost/spirit/Son) present somewhere else for a long time.


There's no "living" about it. They exist here. Not all ghosts are astral travellers (in fact, very rarely is a ghost an astral traveller). The vast majority of ghosts exist in the physical world for one of a few reasons. First, they might not even be an entity that exists here, but rather a shadow of events past, that keep replaying over and over again. Residual energy, if you will. Second, a spirit caught here may have unfinished business that they are trying to complete in death, since they weren't able to in life. The soldier I spoke of is one of these types. Once they have completed whatever task they need to, they will finally allow themselves to pass on. Third, a sprit entity here may have never lived as a mortal. Their reason for existing here are as varied as humans are. Some are benign, some are malignant, some are just curious. Some want to be known, while others just wish to observe. Poltergeists are typically of this third type.

Contrary to your apparent belief on this, the average astral traveller does not possess the skills or knowledge to "hold" a spirit anywhere. Most aren't even inclined to do so, regardless of possessing the skills or knowledge. Typically, the abilities of holding, trapping, or detroying souls are only allowed to the Creators, their children - the Watchers, and the children of the Watchers - my generation - the Guardians. For the Watchers and Guardians, our knowledge and skill to do this comes and goes, as the Creators see fit for us to have it. We are only granted this knowledge when the Creators have ordered for a spirit to be held, trapped, or destroyed... and this is only ordered in the most extreme of cases.



^^^After human death your kind remains period. After being a full ghost for a while they become taken into another section of their body (this world--since it is your kind's true source). Where? Into the sun because of the rebirth of the soul (rebirth of the soul is the reconfiguring of the soul). The bad (or sould I say good?) news is, is that their 'self' remains in that there relocating.


I'm not sure that I follow what you are saying here, but I will try to answer based on my interpretation of your words. When death of the physical body occurs, the soul departs from the physical world, and enters into the spirit world, also known as the Astral Plane. When a soul without a body is in the spirit world, they are free to roam the astral as they see fit, and to occasionally enter into the physical world. Some souls prefer to remain in the physical world after death because of unfinished business (refer to the second type of haunting which I mentioned earlier). A spirit can remain in the spirit world for naught but a few scant moments or hundreds or even thousands of years before being reborn. If a soul has learned all of their life lessons, then they are able to transcend, or permanently join the spirit world, taking themselves out of the life loop. When a soul is reborn into a new body, their spiritual memories are hidden from them, only to be uncovered when the time is right for them. For those that will "awaken", it usually comes during the mid-teenage years, but can also happen earlier or later. Many never will awaken, for the lessons they must learn in their current lifetimes do not require them to have knowledge of the spirit world.

As far as differentiating between "my kind" and "your kind", there really is nothing to differentiate. We are all souls living in mortal bodies. The age of our souls may differ, but we are still of the same creation. I differ a little more than most, but that's only because of the age of my soul, and the fact that very few of my generation are still within the mortal coil. Occasionally, those of my generation are called upon to exist mortally for reasons that are made known to us only when we have need of knowing. Others still have not learned all of their life lessons. My spiritual age is all that sets me apart from anyone else here. There is no "my kind" or "your kind", only "our kind". The true source of my soul is the same as the true source of your soul, a mass of energy inherent within the universe and given sentience. We come from everything that exists. A soul is not created "good" or "evil", but instead created with a clean slate. It is the choices that a soul makes that determine its alignment and the direction it takes in existence.


"Wheresoever the body is, there will the eagles be gathered together"

^^^The main spirit portian of your kind's astral body is linked with what is of the sun's.


My soul is linked with the entirety of creation, just as is yours, just as is everyone else's. We all come from the energies of the universe, the specific source makes no difference.



^^^I read through your posts in that topic. You wont be a ghost "for long" in one sence, but the Holy Ghost (even the Spirit of truth) will come unto you. And you will become as a sensative man of the sun and in the sun. You know, some wish they could just disbelief themselves out of something, but it dont go like that.


For someone who claims to not be of any particular religion, you are sure speaking of a lot of the beliefs of the Christian faith. Outside of that, I'm not really sure what you are trying to convey here. As best I can tell, your beliefs of the spirit world are based fully in faith, and not in experience. This is quite alright. People need their faith, and I won't deny them of it. I just happen to know of a different truth than the truth that you know. As I previously stated, perception and belief is what makes up a person's reality. Your reality is your truth, and therefore, what you speak is true to you. What I speak is true to me. We have different versions of reality. This is perfectly natural - no two souls have the same reality.


^^^I'm glad I wont remain here, though what I will have commanded will. Plus, death is something that your kind should fear. Your kind will live and die at the same time in hell upon a certain hour coming (and pay no mind to thinking 'hour', as in, what you read on a digital watch even though a digital watch's hour can also be when that certain hour come).


Whether or not you remain here is your choice. I won't hand you enlightenment, nor will I condemn you to remain. What becomes of you is your choice, and your choice alone. Death is not something any of us should fear. Death only means that you have either learned the lessons you were being taught in this lifetime, or conversely, have failed the lessons so horribly that you are being given another chance. I know what will become of me when I die, and you seem to know what will become of you when you die. As long as you accept your choices, that is all that matters. Your condemnation of me doesn't bother me. It is your choice to believe that. I know my reality, and you know yours. It just so happens that your reality is quite different from my reality.



On your words of the devil, isn't it the devil whom was cast out of heaven because he chose to exercise free will?


^^^That's that fairy tale devil you speak of.


The devil of which I spoke is the same one that everyone else will think you are speaking of when you refer to astral travellers as "devils." As you said, it's just a label you use. This just illustrates my point that your label confuses other people, since there's already a widely accepted meaning to that word.



^^^No, hell and heaven are one in the same. The energy your kind uses soul wise is the heavens that do reveal the hell in depth. Hell is a state, person, place, and a thing all rolled up as one.


They are one in the same because they are both the astral realm. I prefer not to differentiate between the two, because I see no difference. They are both terms for the spirit, or astral, world. Some who tread in the darker elements will see it as a hell. Others who tread the lighter elements will see it as a heaven. Those that travel in complete neutrality will see it for what it is, the spirit world.




After death, it is the astral realm that accepts us, good or evil.


^^^Not us, but your kind if that's what you're implying by that "us".


As I said previously, there is no difference between "your kind" and "my kind." We are all of "our kind." I also stated that the astral realm is the same as the spirit realm (and can also be called heaven or hell, if those are your preferred terms). It is where all souls go when they no longer have a physical body, and it where where souls that know how to temporarily seperate from their physical bodies also go.



^^^So far you sound as if you know others as yourself that have yet to leave this current life time of being here in this world.


I know living humans, so therefore I know others that have not yet left this lifetime. We are all a pairing of a soul and a mortal body. That does not change among humans.


What do you think your next life time will be like? And where do you think your next life time will be?


There is no next lifetime for me. I have earned my transcendence. I am here this lifetime only to perform a task. Once that task is complete, I can finally transcend.



^^^Evil is dark. Evil is foundation wise how dark. That's how deep it's planted. It is as something planted before humankind's perception came into the picture period. But can and had come into perception the master of the house wise. Right now what's considered evil upon earth is scattered. But there will be a time when things are plainly revealed.


That is a very vague definition. This only further reinforces my statement that a true definition of "evil" doesn't exist.



^^^You know, if 'the self' of you transcends it will be as though independant from the very hell that shall be tormenting it? That kind of freedom is one hell of a freedom. Freedom can be a pardox, and even appear hypocritical. But nevertheless, it is how come hell in general reveals one as the hypocrites just as the parable does of the poor begger and the rich man in Luke 16 (kjv). Also the "elect" and the "children of light" mentioned in the gospels reveal your very kind. If it were possible they (the astral body) shall deceive the very elect (such as your very self).


Transcendence is simply a term referring to permanently leaving the mortal coil. Once you have learned all of life's lessons, you too will finally transcend. It's a permanent freedom from the confines of mortal life. It's quite similar to the Christian notion of becoming an angel and taking one's place at God's side.

And, once again, I notice references to Christian scripture in your words. Are you sure you're not of any particular religion?


Even though your kind as human beings can be seperate from their astral bodies, it still remains that the two are one 'self' (even 'mind') wise. And even 'soul' wise and 'body' (even 'foundation') wise. It's like that fact can't be excaped from.


You have the processes all mixed up. An astral traveller does not seperate from his astral body. His astral body is his soul, present within his mortal body. When a person travels astrally, he is temporarily seperating his soul from his mortal body. The two are still linked, however, by the silver thread. Once seperated, the mortal body dies, and the soul returns to the spirit world (which, again, is the same as the astral plane).

Those of us who can travel astrally don't exist primarily in the astral realm. We exist, just as you do, primarily within our mortal body.

Considering your vehemence in thinking the other way around, I can only surmise that you are either confused, or talking about a completely different type of entity. Maybe you're thinking along the lines of the Christian notion of a "demon," which is an entity residing primarily within the spirit world, but occasionally possessing mortal bodies for their own intentions. What you think of astral travellers as seems a whole lot more along these lines, rather than a proper mortal astral traveller.

[edit on 10-2-2005 by obsidian468]

[edit on 10-2-2005 by obsidian468]



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 05:14 PM
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Originally posted by Sign Related 2
^^^A must needs be you speak of. Since evil must needs be, why try to cover it up with balance? An evil tendency and evil urge speaks miles that there is a deeply rooted evil as that certain someone self wise.

I'm not doing good things, and then, to myself go, "O" dear, now I must do evil things for balance! I'd be one dark evil fool if I were like that.

But you know what? The truth of the matter is that since evil must needs be so shall revenge be likewise.

I tell you, if the master of the house had not set a trap for the evil so that the evil be sectioned off, we that are not evil would be doomed into the senseless instanity the evil ones would continually bring forth.

Why dont you, obsidian, tell us the evil you do (have done) as apart of the balance you yourself speak of? And dont let the cat hold your tongue back. Tell us the evil you do human wise and astral wise.


Okay, you seem to be finally losing your sense of coherent thought, as roughly 90% of this post is completely unintelligible.

I will not speak of anything I have done to either means with you, as it doesn't affect you directly, and is not to be known to have been set forth. I act in the desires of the Creators. If you wish to know more, perhaps you should seek them out. I will not comment further until I know that you are even speaking of the same thing as I am (honestly, after replying to your last post, I have serious doubts that you and I are speaking of the same concepts).



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 06:08 PM
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I for one, seriously appreciate OBSIDIENS attemptes at cominication with this SIGN RELATED person. I have been reading this thread, and find myself reading sentences by Sign Related over and over trying to understand them. I believe that in understanding another person and trying to see things from their point of view is a learning experiance worthwhile in life. Im just not 'getting' ALOT of what they are saying, and have come to think like Obsidien, that Sign Related isnt speaking of the same issues we are trying to put forth
This is the reason I was beginning to think English was not their 1st langauge, and since they refuse to clarify that issue we will never know.......
I gave you an ABOVE TOP SECRET vote Obsidien, for your fine comunication skills, and your serious attempt at trying to understand this person. You are much more elloquent than I was able to be............I lost patience with trying to comunicate with them when they said SOMETHING unintelledgable about me being SEE THROUGH, whatever they meant by that Ill never know

All in all, I wish this Sign Related person PEACE and LOVE in the life they choose to live, and all blessings they will allow themselves to recieve in life.

~CORRECT ON POINT~ the Astral body is NOT seperate from the soul, it IS the soul..... it is NOT something that is seperate from the totallity of the human being. How then, can this be in any way Evil????
Yes very few people have found this ability within themselves, but I do believe that ALL humans are born with this inate ability, and just amy not be active in them. The same as having the phychic abilities I think WE ALL have but are just not active in us all. Diferant people have differant gifts. All may choose how to use these gifts as the choice of free will. Having the gift is NOT inherantly Evil, no matter what scare tactics are put forth by the unenlightened.
I never thought I would run into OOBE predgiduce on these boards
But it takes all kinds to truly form a comunity


[edit on 10-2-2005 by theRiverGoddess]



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by theRiverGoddess
I for one, seriously appreciate OBSIDIENS attemptes at cominication with this SIGN RELATED person. I have been reading this thread, and find myself reading sentences by Sign Related over and over trying to understand them. I believe that in understanding another person and trying to see things from their point of view is a learning experiance worthwhile in life. Im just not 'getting' ALOT of what they are saying, and have come to think like Obsidien, that Sign Related isnt speaking of the same issues we are trying to put forth
This is the reason I was beginning to think English was not their 1st langauge, and since they refuse to clarify that issue we will never know.......


Thank you for your support on this. I do appreciate it. One of the reasons that I have attempted to continue to decipher and respond to "SignRelated" is because I've noticed the frustration and outright confusion of others that have responded to him (assuming it is a he), and I figured that I could at least try and gather the context of his thoughts so that I might help everyone understand him. It's been no small effort either. After the last one, I just needed a drink to get my mind to loosen back up again after getting a headache trying to understand him.



I gave you an ABOVE TOP SECRET vote Obsidien, for your fine comunication skills, and your serious attempt at trying to understand this person. You are much more elloquent than I was able to be............I lost patience with trying to comunicate with them when they said SOMETHING unintelledgable about me being SEE THROUGH, whatever they meant by that Ill never know


Still being reasonably new to ATS, I'm not sure what the significance is of an ATS vote, but I'm sure it's a good thing, and I thank you.

I always try to treat everyone as I'd like to be treated. I don't think that he and I will ever see eye to eye, but perhaps I've at least started to help him look in the direction he needs to in order to deal with whatever is plaguing him. The eloquence is just how I speak (I have always been very anal about my use of the English language), but I do feel that phrasing things clearly, and elaborating where needed is often helpful in holding a conversation. At least I know I'm being understood, regardless of whether or not I'm being agreed with.

I commend you for your efforts in this thread, and I'll admit, at times, it's been very trying, at best. You have my respect for trying at all. A lesser person wouldn't have even bothered.


All in all, I wish this Sign Related person PEACE and LOVE in the life they choose to live, and all blessings they will allow themselves to recieve in life.


I second this. Whatever may come in future correspondence with him, I do give my best to him, so that he may endeavor to be the best that he can be.


~CORRECT ON POINT~ the Astral body is NOT seperate from the soul, it IS the soul..... it is NOT something that is seperate from the totallity of the human being. How then, can this be in any way Evil????
Yes very few people have found this ability within themselves, but I do believe that ALL humans are born with this inate ability, and just amy not be active in them. The same as having the phychic abilities I think WE ALL have but are just not active in us all. Diferant people have differant gifts. All may choose how to use these gifts as the choice of free will. Having the gift is NOT inherantly Evil, no matter what scare tactics are put forth by the unenlightened.


I must have said this 15 times in various responses. Honestly, I was starting to lose hope of being understood (due to brainfry from deciphering rather incoherent text). Fortunately, I now know that at least one other person understood what I was saying. Once again, thank you.


I never thought I would run into OOBE predgiduce on these boards
But it takes all kinds to truly form a comunity


There's at least one in every community. I certainly am glad that he's here, though. At least it's making for an interesting debate and a good read.



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 07:05 PM
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Obsidien, everyone gets to have 3 votes for ABOVE TOP SECRET per month. Use them as you wish! you'll find the voting boxes on your right under avatars. It adds to your point number, I think a vote gives you 250 points....if you recieve enough votes for a month, you get nominated for the WAY ABOVE award for the month. (dunno what that IS though)
Points get you things like a colored background, kewl avatar, or even an abovetopsecret Email address........it also takes at least 1000 points to be able to enter the chatroom......points are the ATS spending unit

They dont give you points as birthday present I have found



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 07:17 PM
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Originally posted by theRiverGoddess
Obsidien, everyone gets to have 3 votes for ABOVE TOP SECRET per month. Use them as you wish! you'll find the voting boxes on your right under avatars. It adds to your point number, I think a vote gives you 250 points....if you recieve enough votes for a month, you get nominated for the WAY ABOVE award for the month. (dunno what that IS though)
Points get you things like a colored background, kewl avatar, or even an abovetopsecret Email address........it also takes at least 1000 points to be able to enter the chatroom......points are the ATS spending unit

They dont give you points as birthday present I have found


Ah! Well, thank you for enlightening me!
I'm less than 100 points from 1000 now! Woo hoo! I can chat soon! (just what I need, another online chat room, so I can suck up even more of my precious free time!
)

Thank you again, for the vote.



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