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Three Years Ago, California Decided To Go Easy On Crime. The Results Of Their Experiment Are In.

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posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 06:01 AM
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originally posted by: Kandinsky
A lot of people on ATS make the point that rising incarceration rates in the USA are bad. Some argue something must be the matter to have (by far) the largest prison population in the world. How can the USA have more prisoners than countries we view as considerably more oppressive and corrupt? Anyway yada yada...

The point here is Cali has had a go at changing the system. They've gone down the route (favoured by many ATSers) of making possession of drugs a slap on the wrist offence. Shoplifting isn't a straight-to-prison crime and its links to addiction are being addressed by rehabilitation instead of sentencing. They've tried to move 'victimless crime' to misdemeanour. On top of that, it's possible to appeal to have felonies reduced to misdemeanours once they've served their sentence. Obviously it's dependent on the nature of the crime. The upshot is not being defined as a felon for life over something stupid they did when young.

The savings they hoped to make by not sending someone to prison were funnelled into the community level with literacy programmes and schemes to help people out of poverty. These are the major factors that lead to crime.

Setting aside the right/left (Cali hates Trump etc) political BS, isn't it good to see some place trying to find a way to break the incarceration problem? If it's failed, at least they tried. The next thing is to cut their losses and find a different way or see what parts of Prop 47 worked and focus on them. Three years isn't long enough to change generational problems, but changing stuff every 3-4 years is a quick way to cause problems through confusion. Same in Europe where we switch systems every 3-4 years on political grounds.


Let's say that the lawmakers had all good intentions at heart for these changes and no lobbying or special interests were involved (always are everywhere, and is not a left or right thing).

All of what you said makes sense and for the most part I agree with. Especially coming from someone that could have been tainted as such for the rest of my life when I was in HS for something really dumb... but I did the right things and got everything removed completely.

Now, I think this could very well be expanded upon instead of scrapped. But it will mean taking a firm stance. Such as three strikes you're out for nonviolent crimes, you have a minimum... I don't know 5-10, fines, and rehab depending on severity.

If violent crime is rising, then make the punishment harsher and required. No deals.

But seriously though, if you don't discipline your kid and you never really punish them where it means something to them, or get through to them why it is wrong, what do you think is going to happen. "Well, I did this and it wasn't so bad, and maybe I will just get away with it. And if not oh well."

Lawmakers already treat us like children, how did this slip by? Lol

On the surface, I agree with the way you put it, but let's see what they actually do now to correct it.




posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 06:05 AM
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a reply to: neutronflux



The government is to provide the frame work for a civil society through equal and blind enforcement of laws.


Should people be in prison for smoking weed? Or petty shoplifters labelled as felons for life? Laws aren't always fair or civil and are subject to change and review. If you look into it, many laws have been changing and adapting for centuries. Upside is they're dynamic and not cast in stone; downside is politics is often involved.

Cali's tried to change the system and maybe they failed. I don't know for sure and it looks too early to say from where I'm standing.



posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 06:12 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 06:16 AM
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a reply to: GraffikPleasure

Wow! Are you one of the rumoured 'reasonable folk' that are alleged to exist on the internet? Pleased to meet you.


You make balanced points. Laws and law enforcement are a necessity for a safe and fair society. Access to good education is arguably equally as important seeing as low attainment is a universal factor in crime/prison stats. Charting a course through these pillars of society is tough and there's no escaping the need for punishment being built in to the system.

Cali looks like they want to alter the 'graphic equalisers' of social mobility, criminal charges, education and so forth to see if they can find a better balance. So yeah, I tend to share your view that the controls still need more fine-tuning to get it right.



posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 06:30 AM
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meanwhile... Cali's never been more calm... I live in OC
many towns getting the "gentrification" treatment, homicides down (socal), high speed police chases used to be at least 3 a week, now hardly any, petty crimes are down, felonies down, the only rampant felonies are still corruption, money laundering and fraud... check OCregister....
edit on 11-8-2017 by odzeandennz because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 06:37 AM
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I really can't wait for them to #CALEXIT the hell out of here.



posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 06:52 AM
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Prop 47 was very successful in saving money and reducing prison population. Some interests do not want to reduce prison population.

There are two sides to every story:



In some ways, Proposition 47 has accomplished what it was designed to do. It helped reduce the prison population, allowing the state to comply with a federal court order that found overcrowded prison conditions in California violated constitutional standards.

Nearly 4,700 people have since been re-sentenced and released from state prisons, and the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation estimates 3,300 fewer individuals will now be incarcerated each year. The new law also lowered the state’s daily average jail population by about 8,000 people, according to a report from Californians for Safety and Justice.

But Proposition 47 was written in a way that attempted to avoid an unfunded mandate, and three years passed before savings could be calculated and allotted to community and social services, criminal justice advocates and defense lawyers said, causing many former inmates to end up on the streets with no safety net or support system. Law enforcement officials and others have said the measure has allowed offenders to continue breaking laws with little consequence.

Political debate has centered on whether Proposition 47 is causing crime rates to rise in several cities. In some areas, local law enforcement statistics show, street officers are making fewer drug arrests, and police and retailers point to increasing property theft, prompting state legislation this year to propose a ballot measure that would amend parts of the law, making it a felony to steal $950 worth of property in a year. Under Proposition 47, any single theft under $950 in property value is considered a misdemeanor, even for repeat offenders.

With so much at stake, criminal justice groups and community members say they have lobbied, written letters to lawmakers and filled legislative hearings in Sacramento to attempt to counter the negative publicity about the measure and promote a public safety approach that balances prevention with treatment and incarceration.

Their first battle came over calculation of the state’s fiscal savings from Proposition 47. The independent Legislative Analyst’s Office had initially estimated between $150 million and $250 million in annual savings.

Gov. Jerry Brown’s newest budget estimates the savings at $42.9 million after accounting for a temporary increase in the number of parolees and the court workload that comes with resentencing. State officials say they expect to distribute a total of $103 million over the next three years.

“Most Californians today agree that we need a set of investments that provide options beyond prisons, and many of those options work better to stop repeat crime,” said Lenore Anderson, executive director for Californians for Safety and Justice. “That is going to be good for public safety but also good for saving the state money.”


www.latimes.com...


edit on 11-8-2017 by dfnj2015 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 07:53 AM
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a reply to: StoutBroux

They treat their citizens like children.

All these criminals need is to let out all that energy and after they'll be productive citizens.



posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 08:06 AM
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California's not underwriting the prison industry with public money?

Communists.




posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 08:14 AM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015
Prop 47 was very successful in saving money and reducing prison population. Some interests do not want to reduce prison population.

There are two sides to every story:



Every victim knows.




posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 08:45 AM
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a reply to: StoutBroux

The short answer is not going to be liked. From my experience in central Texas and several trips to Mexico, I've decided that the Mexican/Hispanic attitude toward criminal activity of all types is several off of what normal Americans regard. That means is the urge to do crimes is greater among that population. Then when the laws are less restrictive that situation gets compounded.



posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 09:02 AM
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a reply to: Kandinsky

The problem is cultural, but no one wants to address that.

If you try, you are racist because the worst of the cultural rot often centers itself on one or two races even though the problems afflict members of all races.



posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 09:48 AM
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This is real Democracy in action.
It's the reason why our founders chose a Republic instead.



posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 09:51 AM
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a reply to: StoutBroux

This is one of the reasons why I hate living in California and I want to move out of the state.



posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 09:53 AM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015
causing many former inmates to end up on the streets with no safety net or support system.



The average citizen can just as easily end up on the streets since the public doesn't have a safety net either.
We need to make prisons self-sufficient, they work or don't eat.



posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 10:09 AM
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originally posted by: odzeandennz
meanwhile... Cali's never been more calm... I live in OC
many towns getting the "gentrification" treatment, homicides down (socal), high speed police chases used to be at least 3 a week, now hardly any, petty crimes are down, felonies down, the only rampant felonies are still corruption, money laundering and fraud... check OCregister....


Saving who money? Reduction in prosecutions does not mean reduction in crime.

Spike In Shoplifting Blamed On California Prop 47’s Reduced Penalties

May 14, 2016 11:41 AM
www.sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2016/05/14/shoplifting-california-prop-47-reduced-penalties/amp/

An explosion of California property crimes — due to Prop. 47
By Marc Debbaudt |
www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/amp/An-explosion-of-California-property-crimes-6922062.php

Unintended consequences of Prop. 47 pose challenge for criminal justice system
www.latimes.com/local/crime/la-me-prop47-anniversary-20151106-story,amp.html



posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 11:21 AM
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I'm not the smartest man in the world. But the way California does some of these things is just mind boggling. It's one thing to give normal folks extra privileges but give criminals that...well that is just plain stupid.



posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 11:28 AM
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Southern California resident here. If crime is up, no one is noticing. Life is pretty mellow and always sunny. Places where crime has gone up, per the OP article, are actually Republican leaning, families, and run down suburbs, as well as desert. You don't want to be anywhere near those places.



posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 02:31 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Kandinsky

The problem is cultural, but no one wants to address that.

If you try, you are racist because the worst of the cultural rot often centers itself on one or two races even though the problems afflict members of all races.


Maybe, maybe not. Wouldn't you agree it rather depends on the definition of culture and which one is being held responsible?

For instance, the poor areas of urban centres in 18th and 19th Century England, Australia and France were high on crime and low on education. This is back when the populations were almost entirely white. It was before drugs were produced and sold at industrial levels so alcohol was the main addiction.

The late 19th is famously documented in Mayhew's London Labour and the London Poor. He was a sort of rational prototype for Orwell in the way he got out and lived amongst the poor. Some of his accounts are bloody funny and others grim enough to make us count our blessings for the times we live in. It also reminds me of Elizabeth Fry and John Howard who spent their lives looking at prison reform, overpopulation and aiming for rehabilitation as an equal part of justice.

A common denominator is lack of education even when race (or skin tone) isn't a factor. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not playing the victim card and appreciate that some folk choose not to work whatever the social climate is.



posted on Aug, 11 2017 @ 03:20 PM
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a reply to: StoutBroux

We have people in my city that commit felonious battery and get let out on $500 bail. With a rap sheet. Then shockingly commit more crime. t's no wonder people are leaving in droves, the violence and carjackings are just out of control. But we don't want to disproportionately affect those minorities so we let them out on the streets.

It's part of the Justice 2000 system and it's useless.
edit on 11-8-2017 by thegeneraldisarray because: (no reason given)



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