Western Foriegn Policy is not to Blame for Terror Attacks

Recently I have seen an increase in the amount of people that blame the actions of Isis and other Islamic terrorist on US and European countries interventionist policies. I think that this is not only incorrect, but a dangerous claim.

THE ARGUMENT

The argument goes something like this:

The US, and to a lesser degree European countries, have been bombing countries in the Middle East. This has killed many innocent people, and so now people from those areas are angry and deciding to attack the US and Europe in response.

WHERE TERRORIST COME FROM

If this were true, then we would expect to see almost all of these terrorist attacks coming from countries that the US and Europe have bombed; Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Afghanistan, etc.

However, when we look at where the attackers are from, we see that startling few of them are from these countries. Countries such as Somalia, Trinidad and Tobago, Pakistan, the United Arab Emirates are where many of these terrorist hail from. Why would people from these countries attack the US and Europe over bombing Libya or Iraq?

The answer that many people would give is “Well they feel that they have a kinship to people from those other countries through their religion”.

But this goes against these people’s other point, that Islam has nothing to do with the attacks. Other than religion, why would someone from the UAE throw their lives away killing Germans for the US attacking Afghanistan?

It also seems like a bigoted argument to me. Would the people making this argument even dare for one minute to justify a Western country like say Poland sending civilians to blow themselves up in Egypt because Pakistan attacked France? Of course not. In fact, they would decry Poland as committing war crimes and claim there was no reason for them to attack Egypt.

And let’s not forget about the terrorist that are actually citizens of the countries they attack (like Omar Matteen). It seems it is more common that these terrorists are second generation immigrants, and are actually legal residents or citizens of the country they are attacking. This means that their parents WILLFULLY came to the country, and that country generously let them in. Often times, these parents were trying to flee the barbarism from Islamic extremist in their country of origin.

But we are to believe that their children overlook the policy of giving their parents a better life, and decide to kill people only because of the policies of intervention? It makes no sense.

This mentality of blaming interventionist policies also ignores that many of these groups commit atrocities against people in the very countries they come from. As we know, the largest victims of groups like ISIS and Boko Haram are other Muslims. Is Isis butchering Muslims in Syria and the Philippines because the US bombed Iraq? Is Boko Haram burning little boys alive and raping little girls because the UK has troops in Afghanistan? Or are we just to believe that ISIS and Boko Haram attack those people for one reason, but they have a completely different set of reasons for attacking western countries?

WHAT THE TERRORIST TELL US THEIR MOTIVES ARE

And lets not forget, the terrorists have told us exactly why they attack. Sure some of Al Qaeda claimed western policies. But Bin Laden has as the THIRD item in his charge against the west that they stopped supporting Indonesia’s genocide against the people of East Timor. So I guess Europe and the US has these terror attacks coming for the crime of not committing genocide exactly where the terrorists wanted.



And Isis has laughed at the idea that they attack because of US or European interventions. The tell us exactly what they want; a worldwide caliphate. It doesn’t matter if the US pulls out of Afghanistan and Iraq, and never sets foot in the ME again, and gives Isis people jobs and money. Their plan is a final solution, the end of civilization as we know it. They tell us, our very existence is why they kill us. But I guess the people blaming the US and Europe would suggest just killing ourselves so that we may stop offending the terrorists.

CULTURAL MARXISM

So given this, that we know many of the terrorists don’t come from regions that the west has attacked, and that the terrorists flat out tell us foreign policy is not the reason they attack; why do so many people seek to downplay the terrorists real motivation and cast blame on the western world? Its simple; cultural Marxism.

You see, these people believe that the world should not be view in terms of individuals, we are all just a series of groups. And each group is either an oppressor or oppressed. White = oppressor, others = oppressed. US and Europe = oppressor, others oppressed. And so on. And so to these people, they cannot fathom that there may be a case where violence or evil isn’t the oppressors (the Western worlds) fault.

That is why not only do they blame the west, but they actually say that the west has no right to adjust things like immigration policy to try to stop these attacks. They feel that the west has to have open borders, and the west has to live with the fact that they will be punished with these attacks for the sin of being oppressors. And furthermore, to argue for self-preservation, or against this faulty logic means that you are somehow a bigot.

CONCLUSION

Now look, I am against the regime change mindset that has permeated some western politics. I was against the Iraq war, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, etc. (As an aside, it seems like the cultural Marxist were less upset with the champion of peace Obama and his regime changing ways). And I acknowledge the stupidity of arming many of these terror groups by regime changing politicians.

But I will be damned if I am going to ignore facts and act like this somehow justifies terror attacks on the western world.

Its time to stop making excuses and virtue signaling how noble we are by blaming ourselves for these attacks, and put the blame firmly where it should be, on a radical Islamic ideology.

a reply to: Grambler Very well and put together thread. And to be honest I have spent many of hours thinking about this subject and almost came to the same conclusion. Though I didn't get in the mud of it because I have many other things I try to get to the bottom. So thank you for laying it out and doing the work for us. Great read and will be checking back often to see how the thread is going and read others thoughts. Oh and as soon as I can I will watch the video. Really looking forward to it!

a reply to: Grambler

If this were true, then we would expect to see almost all of these terrorist attacks coming from countries that the US and Europe have bombed; Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Afghanistan, etc.

Theres your sign...

The overthrow (regime change) follows the intervention (invasion) after a multiphase operation. The terrorists (insurgents) are from outside the country as are the 'coalition' bombers. The real terrorists are the Us, EU (NATO) forces playing out the same 'multiphase operation' in country after country, again and again.

Watch video in here...

a reply to: Grambler

Its time to stop making excuses

Well... on this first part of your last sentence we do agree.

The film compares the rise of the neoconservative movement in the United States and the radical Islamist movement, drawing comparisons between their origins, and remarking on similarities between the two groups. More controversially, it argues that radical Islamism as a massive, sinister organisation, specifically in the form of al-Qaeda, is a myth, or noble lie, perpetuated by leaders of many countries—and particularly neoconservatives in the U.S.—in a renewed attempt to unite and inspire their people after the ultimate failure of utopian ideas.

Wiki - The Power of Nightmares

Deny ignorance... maybe?

a reply to: Grambler

It's true, they don't need a reason. We exist, that's enough.

But folk will try to rationalise it.

And anything to bolster the image of the big, bad, evil white man.

a reply to: Grambler

But I will be damned if I am going to ignore facts and act like this somehow justifies terror attacks on the western world.

Problem is you're creating a strawman to argue against...

Nobody says these attacks are "justified"...
Just that you cannot ignore the reality of what invasion has done to these people.


Your other point about attackers not coming from these countries means nothing.

The UK wasn't attacked on 9/11...
But we damn sure jumped into action alongside the US for a lovely bit of revenge, didn't we.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Grambler

If this were true, then we would expect to see almost all of these terrorist attacks coming from countries that the US and Europe have bombed; Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Afghanistan, etc.

Theres your sign...

The overthrow (regime change) follows the intervention (invasion) after a multiphase operation. The terrorists (insurgents) are from outside the country as are the 'coalition' bombers. The real terrorists are the Us, EU (NATO) forces playing out the same 'multiphase operation' in country after country, again and again.

Watch video in here...

I am against regime change wars, as my post history proves.

This does not however show that terrorist are somehow legitimate and have a good reason for their actions.

Again, see the OP. You attempt to justify terror attacks by someone in the UAE against France because the US overthrow Libya, or other scenarios like that.

You only do that with people in the ME for some reason. You lump all of them together as one group and say an attack on one of them is an attack on all. Why is that different than your stance with western countries?

Could it be exactly as a say; cultural marxism?

I mean, you are the person who celebrates white people having their land stolen and being kicked out of South Africa merely because of their skin color, so I can't say I am surprised by you stance here.

a reply to: Grambler

You left out the part where "but Americans/Europe/West/anybody but the terrorists are the real terrorists."

Luckily it got added, though.

originally posted by: Hazardous1408
a reply to: Grambler

But I will be damned if I am going to ignore facts and act like this somehow justifies terror attacks on the western world.

Problem is you're creating a strawman to argue against...

Nobody says these attacks are "justified"...
Just that you cannot ignore the reality of what invasion has done to these people.


Your other point about attackers not coming from these countries means nothing.

The UK wasn't attacked on 9/11...
But we damn sure jumped into action alongside the US for a lovely bit of revenge, didn't we.

Perhaps justified is the wrong word. But some people are saying the west "deserves" what is happening, or that these invasions are the reason for the attacks, and that is not true.

Thank you for exactly proving my point at the bottom there.

I too criticized the invasion of Afghanistan.

Yet you seem to allow for other Muslims in other countries to carry out attacks when they themselves weren't attacked to get revenge.

If it wasn't an excuse for the UK, why is it for terrorist from other countries?

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: Grambler

Its time to stop making excuses

Well... on this first part of your last sentence we do agree.

The film compares the rise of the neoconservative movement in the United States and the radical Islamist movement, drawing comparisons between their origins, and remarking on similarities between the two groups. More controversially, it argues that radical Islamism as a massive, sinister organisation, specifically in the form of al-Qaeda, is a myth, or noble lie, perpetuated by leaders of many countries—and particularly neoconservatives in the U.S.—in a renewed attempt to unite and inspire their people after the ultimate failure of utopian ideas.

Wiki - The Power of Nightmares

Deny ignorance... maybe?

Deny what ignorance?

Perhaps you missed where I said I condemn the regime change wars?

You can't get out of your oversimplified world view.

"The US is evil, everything is their fault!"

Yep,we have heard this song and dance before.

And you link a movie that says groups like AQ are basically not real, yet on the other thread, you called out (which I agree with by the way) the US funding Al Nursa in Syria.

So which is it? These groups are boogey men made up, or the US is financing them?

I guess the answer for you would be that you will change your opinion based on what ever makes the US look most evil, right?

Would you be radicalized if this happened in your country by a foreign power?

a reply to: Hazardous1408

Oh and dd you watch the video on the thread?

I suppose then you agree, that the US antagonized and brought terrorism on themselves, because Bin Laden listed as his third crime committed by the west, reversing course and not allowing genocide in East Timor.

As the video says, that was the reason given for AQ bombing an embassy in Iraq, and blowing up innocents in Bali.

But I guess thats the US fault to; next time we should learn to commit genocide when the terrorist want us to, or we bring their ire on ourselves.

originally posted by: olaru12
Would you be radicalized if this happened in your country by a foreign power?

How many of the terroists attacks as of late have been by Iraqis?

So terrorist in the UAE attack the US because the US attacked Iraq?

Boko Haram is raping children in Africaa because of Iraq?

Based on this rationale, I assume you think it would be perfectly reasonable for a person in the US to starp a bomb on themselves and blow up some German children because Germany bombed the UK.

a reply to: Grambler

It's not an excuse for the terrorists at all.
You're taking what I said out of context which, granted, is easily done on a forum.

I'm merely pointing out a different perspective...
I'm not "allowing" for anything...

Just pointing out the double standard.

Terror is wrong.
Unjustified War is wrong.

There is no moral high ground for either.

But you didn't make a thread about unjustified war...
You made a thread about terror attacks...

So, as always, I play devil's advocate and show you the other side.

Whether we agree with it or not, it doesn't change the fact that this perspective exists within the minds of some, no matter how deranged they may be.



You've got to be objective in the end...

When 9/11 happened, you (America generally, not "you" personally) wanted revenge.
When Fallujah happened, they (Iraqis) wanted revenge.

I'm not fantastic with words but I'm sure you get the gist of what my point actually is, and not what you assumed it was.

a reply to: Hazardous1408

No I appreciate your comments. It is tough for me to use precise language, and for that I apologize.

My argument there is that as much as I was against a country like the UK (or any) getting involved with Afghanistan because of 9/11, I am just as against the notion that somehow this action in Afghanistan somehow should lead to Somalian (or any other country) terrorist attacking the UK.

I am not saying the western countries haven't done terrible things. I call those things out.

But I will not fall into the trap of over simplifying things and just saying that the EVIL US is the root of all problems.

Again, Isis and AQ and Boko Haram kill innocents in their own countries, this has nothing to do with the US.

And as the video I posted shows, these terrorist have blown up innocents for the crime of not supporting genocide..

And as this thread shows, some people want to ignore that (not saying you) and just scream how evil the west is.

a reply to: Grambler

I haven't watched the video as I'm on mobile at the moment.

I hope you don't believe that I feel the U.S (or anywhere for that matter) "brought terror on themselves"...
I have a bigger heart than that.

I'm just sayin man, we could all be radicalised given the chance.
Which was my point above with Fallujah & 9/11...

I'm sure you've seen the news footage of that shrill witch Judge Jeannie Perro (sp?) saying "bomb them, bomb them, bomb them and then bomb them again"...
She isn't unique, many people feel the same way as her...

And all it does is create a vicious cycle.


No I do not believe you or anyone brought it upon yourselves, we are merely workers, parents, children, charity givers, lovers, pacifists even to some extent...
We don't vote for war...
And Iraqis don't debate who is going to commit terror...


All of these things are chosen by those who rule over us.

& I think what's happened is heinous on all sides.

a reply to: Grambler

I guess the answer for you would be that you will change your opinion based on what ever makes the US look most evil, right?

Neocons don't care about nations at all. It's a very dominant group in the west, together with it's neoliberal cousins they've actually dictated the policies of the latest decades.
Thus it would be wise to take their actions into account as well, yes.

a reply to: Hazardous1408

I do not think you feel that people deserve this, and again, I appreciate the conversation.

And again, even if you look at my comments on the NK thread last night, I am very anti war in almost all occasions, and am against the interventions the US has led recently.

But what prompted me to write this thread was people making comments that not only does the US and Europe the cause of all of this terror, but they have to allow huge amounts of immigration and just accept the fact that there will be terror attacks.

This is ridiculous.

a reply to: Grambler

I actually agree with you fully, mate.

Another point is ISIS throwing gay people off of minarets...
Who would be stupid enough to believe that is because of Western foreign policy?

Nobody, surely?


But each terror attack has its own reasons...


You may have one attack where the attacker says "this is because I hate the west and everything it stands for"...
And on the next attack the attacker says "this is because of foreign policy"...

Each attack will be different.

I think it can be simplified by both sides...

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: Grambler

I guess the answer for you would be that you will change your opinion based on what ever makes the US look most evil, right?

Neocons don't care about nations at all. It's a very dominant group in the west, together with it's neoliberal cousins they've actually dictated the policies of the latest decades.
Thus it would be wise to take their actions into account as well, yes.

In other words you admit that you hate the US so much that you are willing to lie; to on one hand say groups like AQ doesn't exist, but on the other hand criticize the US for arming them or their branches in Syria.

Thanks for outing yourself!