Meaning of Existence?

If you were the highest deity and wanted to exist, for what reasons would you exist?

I sometimes wonder: why do people think there is an "end" to time? Hasn't evolution taught you anything? Isn't the sheer longevity of the process we are involved in not evidence that, even if human beings did come together in awareness of a common spiritual source (God), what does that even mean vis-à-vis the facts of physical reality: of a world?

Why would God create a world? The Jewish answer is: so his creatures can come to know him. But that implies a strange dualism. Obviously, we cannot admit dualism - as reality is simply one. So, why would we be existing? What do we exist for? What do you/we enjoy?

I think the answer is obvious.

NBA, NHL, NFL, MLB are examples of what we live for: to have fun. Developing the sciences to get a closer idea about how reality works i.e. curiosity and a yearning to discover, underlies what we live for. We also live for the connections we make with others; in particular, family members, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, aunts and uncles: it feels good having others who recognize us and complement us - and it is indeed this first person understanding of truth and reality - and not any "God" making commands for me to act in such and such a way, that motivates my action.

When we communicate from a first person perspective about what we feel, this constitutes the sort of knowledge that builds "inter-subjective" links, and indeed, such commonly-held knowledge is what allows mind-brains to 'correlate' with each other and so feel relaxed around one another: if I know you care not to hurt me, my brain becomes relaxed, and my body "soaks into" the comfortable presence of the other.

Everyone notices this about themselves. With people were close to, our bodies respond differently. It tells us that we are either relaxed and in our bodies, or, conversely, we are "outside" our bodies, overly-thinking about what we should do, and how we should act, etc. Such rigidly enforced "social-codes" necessarily occur through the amygdala i.e. the threat/fear center of the brain, which reads the environment (context) and so "channels" perception in such a way as to produce the "right code".

They very fact that this behavior "works over" the more basic self-other equivalence that binds human body-minds together, is where the injustice lies, as if a person shows the "wrong sign" - doesn't possess the requisite "implicit relational knowing" i.e. knowing how to be with a particular group of people - they will be reflexively experienced by the other as "wrong". Such "wrongness" simply derives from the minds own ignorance about how interactions with others acts upon their own mental processing. They put their "ideas about what's right" above the feelings they provoke in Others when they look/respond to them like this. This sort of injustice happens all the time, and its an "injustice" because the other party, which sometimes is you, and other times the person you relate with, comes away feeling a badness which they then have to counter-within themselves if they are going to function with that feeling state they need to feel good: pride.

After all my reading in my still very young life (31), I have come away thinking this:



This chart shows the evolutionary progression of "connecting feelings" which emerged in mammals (reptiles did not develop any connecting emotions to conspecifics). The first one to emerge, and a very prevalent one, is play. Eventually, care begins to emerge so that most mammals who express care also come to express play, but they occur in different ways: care following birth, play in the early years.

With humans, it seems we evolved in such a way as to expand caring relations with others, with at the same time recognizing the value and pleasure in play. On top of play, the human mind comes to care about its relatedness to the world, which it experiences through the feeling of awe. Awe, or wonder, is the experience we have when we take in the natural world in such a way as to evoke awe in us. Awe, in effect, is a sense of the beauty of the natural world, the stars, the sun, and the infinite range of the universe. Astronauts, its been said, go to space girded by feelings of curiosity and interest, but come away with a profound sense of awe - of the wholeness and infinitude of space itself. Just as the mind may experience itself "dissociated" from the presence of its feeling body, I imagine the experience of going into space - visually, as well as the effect of zero-gravity on biodynamical processes - enhances that sense of "disembodiment", yet, perceiving, and being a being that knows that it knows, and knows that it is currently in what seems to be an astonishing situation - in space, above the Earth, inside a body, inside a spaceship, and there they are, looking out through the window, as Chris Hadfield did, and witnessing themselves witnessing something that, quite justifiably, seems surreal.

To be a human being who finds himself up there, above the Earth, and looking out upon the living Earth, must produce a very powerful sense of wonder.

Wonder, Love, and Play. This is what we live for, and why this universe, and this Earth, exists. Whether a God is or isn't invoked, all the phenomenological evidence of being human shows that this is what we love, and what we should, if we are coherently minded, seek to make possible for everyone, within indeed, the thought of time or the infinite depth of the universe, still being there as it should be, to promote awe in those who, later in life, seek to bask in the peace of the cosmos.

a reply to: Astrocyte

I like your thinking in your opening. Life is important.

But to the question;

If you were the highest deity and wanted to exist, for what reasons would you exist?

Well, as highest deity, I would be thinking I had reached a dead end as far as growth is concerned. I would be jaded towards knowledge and power.

I would be looking at the "children below" and seeing their wonder at new experiences as they live and grow. Their joys, their sorrows, falling in love for the first time, first broken heart. Creating a home. Having a family and children of their own and I would be jealous of their existence.

So I would find a nice society of Beings with potential for growth and self developement in new ways. One who is being oppressed and destroyed by "higher" Beings who are self important uncaring bastards.

Then I would disassemble myself and be born into their society and fight the oppressors.

Then perhaps stay for the ride into new uncharted ways of being.

a reply to: Astrocyte

The very idea of a highest deity seems a bit counterintuitive. The claim that there could be a being or substance that in all contexts is always complete or perfect seems to disprove itself. The moment in which the substance or being contemplates its completion or perfection begins a new moment in which the being or substance can ask the question "Can I become more?"

Once the boundaries or edges of one's state of order are perceived the door opens to the idea that something of greater order can exist.

The reality I choose to believe in includes the necessity for each being or substance to progress infinitely, growing infinitely where the existence of each being or substance, or intelligence, is exciting because it presents the possibility for a new iteration of all of reality, an incremental or exponential improvement for all reality to reorder itself on.

This is the best idea I have come up with to explain why reality exists, why it matters, and why each person matters. If there really is a highest god, a highest existence, then I don't believe he or she or it wants to continue living at that level. Just think of it, existence itself would be a boring monotony, even if the intelligence was evil. If the intelligence was evil then it seems like eventually it would get bored of the monotony and destroy itself. If the intelligence was good then it seems like it would have a desire to grow and increase. If the being judged that there really was a limit it seems like it would either seek to surpass the limit or seek to destroy all of reality in order to spare all other intelligences of the pain of existing at the same level forever, the pain of BOREDOM. The boredom would become a prison.

Do you have a better alternative? I haven't found anything as complete or compelling as what I just stated.

a reply to: Astrocyte

You are assuming a self-reflective anthropomorphic authoritarian supreme commander creator being.

Take HIM (or HER, if you are easily offended) out of the equation and there is no problem.

a reply to: FyreByrd

Dunno, Astrocyte gave me the idea that it was the highest deity in a hierarchy. That Being can do whatever it likes, as they often do.

a reply to: Astrocyte


Now that's a good thread

Your way of presenting maybe is subjected to the doubts of the reader, because the use of too much exact references. However, your thesis essence stands strong. "We're here to have fun". True to the bone. Now let me add something more from my point of view:

y=f(x)

Anything that "is" cannot "be" until it is "not" at the same time. If god (x) had the potential for his marvelous self expression, the ultimate potential, this potential was static. Ultimate, but static. Thus god created the function (f). The hologram. Maya. Light. This he had done for one single reason - to have an output number (y) in his formula of supremacy, thus giving(becoming) the birth of "not himself". By being "not himself" and looking from that perspective, he could glimpse his own(real) majesty and understand/realise himself in a way never possible before.

God so much loved his image, he saw how true and good it is, that he decided to prolong the existence of the experiment "y=f(x)". It was done... from very selfish position, just for sake of his own glory and pleasure. But heck, I think it's fine to be selfish when you are the only true thing existing. Then selfishness becomes very mild and natural concept. And from this selfish glory we and all other things sprout. The ultimate illusion. The eyes of god. Existence. The spinner on the finger of god...

However this still does not fully answer the question: Why having fun is important?

If you remember I mentioned that god was static in his supremacy. Then he created motion to counter its static state and be able to know himself. Then I said that he liked so much this experiment that he prolonged it indefinitely. That is the way and reason static things do not tend to be in our existence. Everything in Maya moves perpetually. Some faster than others, but all moves. Even black holes. Human emotion cannot be static as well. By its nature it is designed to move... to have fun, as you put it. If we simply stop the fun, stop the motion, or life - samsara, then the only thing left will be god in its true state of existence - nirvana. A true emptiness. That is why we choose to "be" and follow the Maya in its complexity of motion. We do what we are told, we follow the word. The word of the creator... "Let there be light!"

a reply to: Astrocyte

A very good thread you've written Astrocyte. You're very much aware for someone your age! Keep going the answers will come.

a reply to: Whatsthisthen

would be jaded towards knowledge and power.

Why would you be jaded about knowledge and being?

I think, given we exist within our own heads, in a world with others who also have their own minds, the parts/whole thing seems difficult to appreciate for me from this sort of cosmic perspective, but I doubt the deity would have a problem with that. The fact that large and small could be made so intimate, is paradox - not to mention too bright for the individual mind to handle without a sense of a corresponding counter-pole i.e. God.

God, of course, is being, and being is made possible through the stuff that creates us. The Godhead, or in the kabbalah, "kether", is a sort of perception of reality that makes the yin-yang rhythm make sense. Up there, reality seems absurd - ergo, I either go cookoo-for-coco-puffs bat-# crazy, or, I accept the wisdom of the creator, i.e. that the purpose of creation is coherency i.e. to move towards an awareness of the importance and necessity of love. Love binds us together. Love - and beauty - binds humans to the world. Its because I accept the wisdom of the "higher part" beyond me, that reality takes on a relaxed, easier tone.

Its absurd that people should suffer i.e. in ignorance about their own condition - or semiosis. I am a person who enjoys understanding and writing about the dynamics or reality, but I do not doubt that worlds lie beyond me. Humans can be made far more sensitive to things which would, probably, blow their minds. Trauma - or having a brain-stem which holds the memories of your past, speaks to the issue of perception in people. Some people simply 'push" meaning through a damaged brainstem that makes them think/act like psychopaths.

Of course, I am assuming that reality is determined by chance processes on Earth, but perhaps the organization is more extensively connected than I realize.

a reply to: FyreByrd

No, not really.

Do the details matter, or no?

originally posted by: Astrocyte
If you were the highest deity and wanted to exist, for what reasons would you exist?

1) Because it's better to be something than nothing at all.

2) To share and have some fun. Creativity is a form of play.

3) To enjoy untold, manifold experience, and to appreciate the multiplicity of the creation ie: to go BIG or go home as they say.

4) To become self aware, but with an infinite series of points of view. To get to look in a mirror.

5) To always have good company in one form or another ie: to have a place at the head of the table enjoying the fellowship of koinonia or an intimate, participatory sharing. For good times.

6) As a joke.

7) seven left intentionally blank.

8) There was nothing else to do.

a reply to: Astrocyte

Why would you be jaded about knowledge and being?

Because I feel like that now.

In the scenario presented, as the uppermost diety, I wonder if it would be unbearably worse.

To explain:

In the inner worlds, the Beings I know of, including deities, procreate by mitosis. There, when a Being grows weary of living (Being) and tires under the weight of their memories, they refresh themselves by going though a process of division. They devide their Being and thus create multiple child versions of themselves. There the experience that weighed so heavily recedes to just memories of another existence. I don't yet understand this process completely as it works in the mother, yet she is refreshed too.

The children have their ancestor's complete memories going ALL the way back.

A dear (non-human) friend went through this process and created eight beatiful little replicas of herself. All exactly the same. They are very child-like and adorable. In their first moments they were exactly alike, and as they experience being for themselves, the differences will cause them to diverge from each other and become true individuals.

Their mother's ancestrial memories are far older then the earth itself.

So the original ancestor of whom I speak, had a small number of children, each of those who survived had eight children. Dunno why, but eight seems to be the number of division in this universe. The original ancestor came (quote) from another place.

My friend has devided multiple times. So one can get an idea of multiple progression in the complex hierarchy of these Beings. Thus hierarchies are a fairly natural process and structure in this universe of life.

This is so also of wood-nymphs such as Nimue of Arthurian Legend fame. Nimue is still an impetuous girl even after all this time, as are her sisters. Nimue's grandmother is (obviously) far older and knows great patience, is wiser and looks to her descendents future. Nimue is a lovely girl, her grandmother's knowledge is scary.

So anyway, were I a deity, I would, from my perspective now, choose self disassembly and go join the younger ones having fun.

By the way, humans were originally, and maybe still are, "deities" themselves.

Hmmm . . . Trauma, I gotta think that through, that is something I want to understand. If memories reside in the body's life-force then one should be able to erase them maybe. But that is not a solution really. It would destroy one's Being.

Perhaps a trauma understanding thread one day . . . .




afterthought

After writing the post above, I wondered about my friend who divided and if she exists as I assumed. Basically she told me that she "stood back". One could say she changed "levels" and not be wrong in occult terms, but the idea of "levels" does not seem right to me.

My understanding is that she now experiences mainly through her children as they experience. Though if she decided to act independently to say, protect her children, she would cause some direct damage.

You will never know more than you know.

a reply to: FyreByrd

That sounds like what I read in The Death of the Mythic God: The Rise of Evolutionary Spirituality by Jim Marion.

A couple of links

mythic consciousness
evolutionary spirituality

It is nice to see that you have come to that conclusion and that is your reality.

On my end, it seems that we all have the ability to choose for ourselves what our reality is - the interpretation of the why's at least. If you are not consciously coming to this choice yourself, it is being delivered to you either forcefully or naturally from other beings on the planet. Either obey yourself or you will obey another, this is what human nature seems like.

On the question of why do we exist - if we were to simply boil it down, I believe we could just say "because we do." We're here, and each person on earth has a different interpretation and answer to the question of "Why?".

If I were the highest deity with a declaration of my reason to exist - I think it would be similar along the lines of what you talked about - I enjoy it! Although I'm sure my mentality would be a heck of a lot different if I were the highest being... haha . Perhaps my answer would be different then... perhaps it would be necessity?

a reply to: Astrocyte

The meaning of existence is a stupid question.

If it was a good question it would be answered by now.

We need to find a better question.

originally posted by: Astrocyte
a reply to: FyreByrd

No, not really.

Do the details matter, or no?

You are looking at a 'first cause' and so no - the details that follow do not matter.

originally posted by: desert
a reply to: FyreByrd

That sounds like what I read in The Death of the Mythic God: The Rise of Evolutionary Spirituality by Jim Marion.

A couple of links

mythic consciousness
evolutionary spirituality

Never read it - I'll look it up - thank you.

originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar
a reply to: Astrocyte

The meaning of existence is a stupid question.

If it was a good question it would be answered by now.

We need to find a better question.

I've found better question a long time ago...

It states: "With milk or without milk?"

I ask myself this profound question every single morning

I am going to run with your title , Meaning of Existence, as opposed to premise question. I too have pondered this question and perhaps the answer(s) are ultimately ineffable. I have three ideas and they are just that, ideas :

1)To live(via sensory experience)
learn
love

for the purpose of training to become gods throughout the universe. The universe is a training ground for gods to learn to create, and then….well perhaps that answer is beyond our limited mind at this stage of our existence, beyond the scope of our imagination entirely.

2) Another idea I have pondered is the notion of oneness, which I have two thoughts about. The first is result of my experiences in life throughout mediation and altered states of consciousness where I experienced oneness with all things around and inside of me, both macro and micro in all directions. This oneness made me wonder if everything here is part of a whole living organism and we are tiny vessels, like meaning seeking amoeba, swimming around in cells of a larger organism. Consciousness , along with fun, meaning experience, joy, creativity are but mere innate drives to assure our survival and propagation.

I think the 'fun and excitement mentioned could also be described as novelty and novelty is food for our growth and a defense against boredom, which is stagnation, which is unhealthy and can lead to death, or the end. So we may just be photonic micro organisms following some type of programming for a whole.

My second thought about this "oneness" is, what if we are from a collective of some sort, a single entity and each of us are like bees gathering pollen(experience through senses) to bring back to the collective. Not necessarily like the Borg from STNG, but similar, only benevolent, loving and altruistic. Perhaps an advanced society that is millions or not billions of years older than we are, that has evolved into a hive like entity or 'god' or pure energy. All of our experiences are for the betterment of the whole.


3) I personally believe in the power and awe of love and feel that if there is a god,higher power, energy, or aliens, that we are it's children of and it does love us. I admit I may need to believe this to validate my existence as meaningful and with purpose., but I do feel love is the most powerful force in our realm. I also value hate in a sense, because there can be no creation(birth) without destruction(death) it seems, so everything has it's place. However, ultimately, it is light that penetrates the void of darkness, and light that gives life. So, I feel that light is more of an active process, with momentum and growth, whereas dark is stagnant, regressive and devoid of sustenance, almost like a backdrop, or setting if you will.

Finally, I will return to the notion that as vast as the 'known' universe(s) is/are, there is much beyond our knowledge or capacity to know at this point and that certainly leaves the book open and unfinished…

Thanks for another thought provoking thread Astrocyte