Can we wean Elon Musk off government support already? (opinioin piece)

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: luthier

There are 5,000,000,000 reasons that prove otherwise.

What does that even mean?

Are you paid to write this stuff?

What percent more than the other leaders in the industry does musk take for his ventures.

What no answer?

How much did Boeing get to design the fuel cell for the space shuttle?

What are you talking about that musk isn't an actual super hero and uses government money to develop his products which you in accurately state already exist.

How about try defending your argument then being poetic.

a reply to: luthier

I am not in favor of this sort of crony capitalism, you can have a different opinion.

And of course any other corp should not receive corp welfare in one hand and then pay stock holders every quarter with the other.

I would rather see the government subsidizing electric cars...... everytime an electric car gets charged...... that's 50 bucks that wont find its way to finance some form of jihad.

Enough electric cars on the road..... and soon we have people more worried about food than they are about Israel existing

a reply to: Zimnydran

Ever hear of the petro dollar?

Judicial Court Services Inc. for people fulfilling a court requirement for supervision seems to me more like crony capitalism than Tesla's subsidies ever will. They clearly have not been given an unfair advantage over any other US company.

a reply to: seasonal

So what percentage more corporate welfare does musk take beyond his competition?

Or is it a percentage less?

Is a government contract or ability to use the patent a consideration?

Do you write articles about the auto industry in general?

Or are you targeting someone using new technology to advance civilization who is disrupting the industry?

a reply to: luthier


I do not think any corp welfare is a good idea. So your many hard hitting questions are immaterial.

a reply to: seasonal

Oh, but you just decide to write an article about musk, when it's a systemic problem.

Does musk or gm take more welfare?

Do you write articles about gm?

Or GE?

Intel?

Just seems strange that his competitors are making smear campaigns because they are failing this quarter and you seem to have picked up on it as some kind of cause.

a reply to: luthier

Do you really think I wrote this article?

a reply to: seasonal

I don't know why pick on musk? At least he is moving the needle forward. You say it's already available mundane tech but it's not. The manufacturing process to get it mass produced cheap has been stifled by the crowd y system. This guy played their game and beat them at it.

The gigafactory is an advancement. It may not be 100 percent private but it's a step forward as far as design tech.

a reply to: luthier

Affordable is a objective term.

I am not picking on anyone, this is not a fight in a sand box over the blue match box car.

With a tax payer check being delivered every business day for the last 10 years each over $1,800,000 I would hope something would come out of it.

And with under 200,000 cars being built, it is too soon to say a giga factory is a success.

a reply to: seasonal

Again your numbers are totally out of context.

And yes you made it a fight when you singled out the guy producing more for less

You argument is irationally based on an article which was literally used to try and discredit a competitor.

It's too soon to say if the gig factory is a success?

In which regard?

Political, Economic, or Engineering?

It fit's at least one without question that is important to human survival. Efficiency.

It isn't a perfect hippy dippy save the world machine, it's a step forward in a field stagnated for nearly 70 years.

I agree with you no subsidies. No loby power.

In that market IMO musk would do even better.

But your making an argument based off of non reality. With space x musk delivers rides cheaper and develops new and better technology with less hand outs. R and D of any complex new technology is massively expensive. I don't see musk taking a portion out of bounds with the status quo.

We should change the status quo not demand tesla hold a losing business model in a crony system.

a reply to: luthier

Ok, I am not a fan-you are.

I can leave it at that.

a reply to: seasonal

so because Obama insisted on subsidizing the electric car industry by giving rebates to auto buyers that therefore is musks fault.....

to oppose a piece of legislation, target the authors, not the ones that benefit, (which btw is the auto buyer primarily, musk secondly)

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: luthier

There are 5,000,000,000 reasons that prove otherwise.

The old guard (Ford, GM, Chrysler et al) could give you a LOT more reasons than that why we shouldn't give to them either.

At the end of the day, they had the opportunity to develop the electric car. But they choose not to. They dabbled in it then killed it off (remember that doco called 'who killed the electric car' per chance? You should watch it again.

Geez, all you people defending Musk are probably the same people who rip "capitalism", when we don't even have capitalism, we have crony capitalism, which Musk personifies. Ok, so maybe his competitors benefit even more from crony capitalism, so what, how about we end all of it? If you love what Musk is doing, then donate your own money to him, don't have the government steal from me to give it to their cronies!

a reply to: TruMcCarthy

Exactly end it all so he can compete he has said the same thing.

Musk does not personify crony capitalism he personifies an inventor who wants to get his product out and has to face reality.

a reply to: seasonal

Sure but some day you should learn to defend your argument rather than the ad hominems or deflection.

If you could show me a national level car manufacturer that doesn't take subsidies and government loans you may have a point.

By the way how many loans has tesla paid compared to others in his induatry....

Yeah I am a fan. I am the son of an inventor with his own business, so a guy like musk who takes massive risks with his investors and his own money is impressive.

What you don't get is his net worth is tied to his companies as well. If they fail his wealth will drastically diminish. It's not like there isn't risk and that he doesn't have massive private investors.

originally posted by: LogicalGraphitti
Its just a matter of time before some other company takes hold with a reliable and affordable product. GM has been at it the longest and will be the affordable one. Porche and Mercedes will fill the luxury slot and Tesla will either be sold or close its doors.

The Chevy Bolt outsold the Model X last month (tho not the Model S). That's the most affordable electric car that normal people would buy.

(The Mitsubishi i-Miev was cheaper, but it was a pathetic glorified golf cart with something like a 60-mile range. Mitsubishi finally discontinued it this year, after years of monthly sales which usually didn't even reach double digits.)

Musk is just One of the new Business Model, Fascist Industry Giants the Technocracy Government is using to build and diversify a 'new-world' of socio-economic foundations...

the likes of Tesla, facebook, Netflix, google, Amazon, snap/twitter.... (just to cite a few)
are the principal parties which will be supported either publically or covertly by tax-dollars and creative Fed Funding

to be the Industry Incubators for a new approach to joint Govt-Mega Corp partnerships and population control in all areas of the re-invented business community/Technocrat Social 'Organism' (think Borg here)




I came across a news blurb the other day... where some huge Mega-Corp, perhaps even Google itself...had some $51 Billion of US Treasuries in the corporate Treasury.... exactly how I imagined...the Gov't both funds & creates conditions for an economic Hydra to arise and in return the mega-corp signs up to amass USA Treasuries which the rest of the world governments shy away from buying...

So the Fed/Treas cabal has a dozen TBTF Banks and now a slew of 1/2 Trillion $ valued mega-Corps to buy up the Debt destroyed Paper issued by Uncle Sam for a decade or so more