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Help me understand the Russian Collusion angle.

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posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 11:46 AM
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originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: underpass61


“The DNC had several meetings with representatives of the FBI's Cyber Division and its Washington (DC) Field Office, the Department of Justice's National Security Division, and U.S. Attorney's Offices, and it responded to a variety of requests for cooperation, but the FBI never requested access to the DNC's computer servers,” Eric Walker, the DNC’s deputy communications director, told BuzzFeed News in an email.

The FBI has instead relied on computer forensics from a third-party tech security company, CrowdStrike, which first determined in May of last year that the DNC’s servers had been infiltrated by Russia-linked hackers, the U.S. intelligence official told BuzzFeed News.

“CrowdStrike is pretty good. There’s no reason to believe that anything that they have concluded is not accurate,” the intelligence official said, adding they were confident Russia was behind the widespread hacks.


Buzz Feed


So why did the FBI not want access to the evidence themselves?

Remember, this is supposedly the biggest political scandal in the history of the country.

And the FBI decides not to look at the most crucial piece of evidnce, but to instead rely on a private firm that has contacts to the DNC?

Imagine if all of the digital devices held by say Flynn were looked at by a republican linked company, and they told the FBI that there was no wrong doing, and the FBI said "Good enough for us, we don't need to see them". The anti trumpers would be calling for blood in the streets.

Not to mention Crowd strike was WRONG in their assessment of Russians hacking Ukraine that they made just after they made their assessment of Russians hacking the DNC.


Ukraine's military on Friday denied reports claiming Russia may have hacked targeting software for its heavy artillery in a breach that could have helped Moscow track and destroy Kiev's big guns.

The cybersecurity firm CrowdStrike -- the same one that discovered the Kremlin's alleged interference in the US election -- said in December it had evidence Russispying on Ukraine's forces inan hackers might have bolstered Moscow's the eastern war zone.

CrowdStrike said the malware was installed on software used to aim Ukraine's D-30 howitzer guns that were the backbone of the government's forces fighting Russian-backed insurgents for 31 months.

The conflict has claimed the lives of nearly 10,000 people and was one of the main factors why Moscow's relations with the West are at a post-Cold War low.


Ukraine's defence ministry blasted the report's claims and rejected any allegations that a hack led to a majority of its howitzers being destroyed during the conflict.

It stressed that "artillery losses were many times smaller and not caused by the reason" given by CrowdStrike.

Ukraine's rebuttal came a day after high-profile US Senate hearings in which the heads of three intelligence agencies all pointed the blame at Russia's most senior officials for hacking into the Democratic National Committee during the presidential campaign.


www.yahoo.com...

So they were wrong about the very next report they had where they blamed Russia, but the FBI is still willing to just take their word for it and ignore the physical evidence that they could easily obtain.

How are you not outraged by this?




posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 11:47 AM
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originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: network dude

Fusion GPS is an American firm originally hired by Never Trumpers in the GOP. When Trump won the nomination, Fusion was dismissed and took their research to the DNC. In June 2016 Russia hacked the DNC and Wikileaks began publishing emails. That is when Fusion hired Christopher Steele, to investigate possible ties between Trump and Russia. The election happened soon after and when Trump won the research job was over but Steele decided to continue on his own and turned his research over to the FBI and the media.

So the difference is... the Clinton campaign never hired Fusion or Steele, whereas members of the Trump campaign willfully met with a Russian citizen claiming to have dirt on Hillary.


Problem is Fusion GPS was working with the Russians and the Magentsky Act before the RNC and DNC hired them.

This means that they knowingly paid an organization that they knew was also being paid by the Russian government to dig up dirt about Trump and Russians.

Trump Jr. knowingly met with a russian woman who he did not no (nor do we at this point) if she was a kremlin agent or not to hear dirt of Hillary.

Its the exact same situation, except the DNC and some of the RNC PAID a known russian employee for dirt on Trump, and Trump jr. did not pay the lawyer.


I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly or if you're confused. Christopher Steele isn't Russian and as far as I know only the Russian lawyer was working the sanctions angle.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 11:48 AM
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originally posted by: VictorVonDoom
I wish there were this much investigation into election tampering committed by the CIA, MSM, and Israel.


There was!!!

www.cnn.com...



Washington (CNN)The FBI monitored social media on Election Day last year in an effort to track a suspected Russian disinformation campaign utilizing "fake news," CNN has learned. In the months leading up to Election Day, Twitter and Facebook were the feeding grounds for viral "news" stories floating conspiracies and hoaxes, many aimed at spreading negative false claims about Hillary Clinton.

On Election Day, dozens of agents and analysts huddled at a command center arrayed with large monitoring screens at the FBI headquarters in Washington watching for security threats, according to multiple sources. One year into the FBI's Russia investigation, Mueller is on the Trump money trail That included analysts monitoring cyber threats, after months of mounting Russian intrusions targeting every part of the US political system, from political parties to policy think-tanks to state election systems.

On this day, there was also a group of FBI cyber and counterintelligence analysts and investigators watching social media. FBI analysts had identified social media user accounts behind stories, some based overseas, and the suspicion was that at least some were part of a Russian disinformation campaign, according to two sources familiar with the investigation.

The FBI declined to comment for this story. Here's some of what Mueller might look at if he investigates obstruction For the FBI, this was uncomfortable territory, given the First Amendment's free speech protections even for fake news stories.

"We were right on the edge of Constitutional legality," a person briefed on the investigation said. "We were monitoring news." As the hours ticked by on Election Day, teams at the FBI, Homeland Security Department and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence held conference calls every three hours with a team at the Situation Room in the White House to discuss possible problems, according to multiple sources. Who's who in Trump-Russia saga Minor issues popped up in far-flung parts of the country, from Alaska to Georgia.

At the end of day, top officials exchanged congratulations for an election day that was completed without disruptions of the vote. One Obama White House official responded to the messages of congratulations with the opposite view, saying the US government response to the Russian operation was "a failure of imagination." "Are you kidding?" that official recalled saying to others at the White House as they celebrated a successful election. "What they did worked!"

edit on 7-8-2017 by iWontGiveUP because: Link



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 11:54 AM
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a reply to: Grambler




So why did the FBI not want access to the evidence themselves?


A question they will never answer. I suspect this whole conspiracy hinges on it.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 11:56 AM
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a reply to: Grambler

There's a huge dis/mis information campaign with Ukraine and Russia, who the hell knows what is what.

ETA: The FBI has looked at what they have and the DNC has met with the FBI several times I believe.
edit on 8/7/2017 by Kali74 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 11:57 AM
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originally posted by: Kali74

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: network dude

Fusion GPS is an American firm originally hired by Never Trumpers in the GOP. When Trump won the nomination, Fusion was dismissed and took their research to the DNC. In June 2016 Russia hacked the DNC and Wikileaks began publishing emails. That is when Fusion hired Christopher Steele, to investigate possible ties between Trump and Russia. The election happened soon after and when Trump won the research job was over but Steele decided to continue on his own and turned his research over to the FBI and the media.

So the difference is... the Clinton campaign never hired Fusion or Steele, whereas members of the Trump campaign willfully met with a Russian citizen claiming to have dirt on Hillary.


Problem is Fusion GPS was working with the Russians and the Magentsky Act before the RNC and DNC hired them.

This means that they knowingly paid an organization that they knew was also being paid by the Russian government to dig up dirt about Trump and Russians.

Trump Jr. knowingly met with a russian woman who he did not no (nor do we at this point) if she was a kremlin agent or not to hear dirt of Hillary.

Its the exact same situation, except the DNC and some of the RNC PAID a known russian employee for dirt on Trump, and Trump jr. did not pay the lawyer.


I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly or if you're confused. Christopher Steele isn't Russian and as far as I know only the Russian lawyer was working the sanctions angle.


Fusion GPS was the go between for the Steele dossier. Just like the Russian lawyer, they worked with her to help end sanctions on the Magentsky act.

The DNC (and some RNC) paid Fusion GPS who then hired Steele for the research.

This means that the DNC went to a company that they knew had been paid by russians to find dirt on Trump and russian collusion.

Surely you find this at least as troubling as Trump jr.s meeting, perhaps even more so as unlike with the Trump jr. meeting we know Fusion not only was paid, but actually did dig up dirt on Trump.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 11:57 AM
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a reply to: introvert
Firstly, again please show ANY evidence or proof ANYTHING was exchanged at the meeting. That will be a prerequisite for any later argument discussion whatever you want to call it. Many on both sides of that meeting have stated publicly that nothing was given or taken.

Secondly, in the section you quoted you did not quote it properly.



or expressly or impliedly promise to make a contribution or a donation

TO MAKE A CONTRIBUTION OR A DONATION.

Was a contribution made?....nope
Was a donation made?....nope

Your selection of "legal" definitions is meaningless within the CFR. I don't know why you don't get that. The CFR sections have specific definition sections for a reason. Even your talking heads on msnbc understand that.




This is unprecedented.

It is not.
This is exactly WHY the CFR has specific definitions.
Please site any legal scholar that has stated differently.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 11:58 AM
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originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: Grambler

There's a huge dis/mis information campaign with Ukraine and Russia, who the hell knows what is what.


Yes exactly!!!!!

All the more reason to not trust private firms that are part of that campaign, and tio ibnstead have the FBI do what their job and look at the evidence themselves!



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 11:58 AM
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a reply to: network dude

I always harp on this, and God forgive me, the family and Mr Rich for being so adamant about it. I cant let it go. It could be me or someone I know next time, or someone who must do the right thing, but will shy from it if this corruption exposure is punished.

Seth Rich was the source for the leak which didnt help the Clinton campaign and definately hurt the DNC, the consequences of which we need to see as of yet.

The Russia collusion angle goes hand in hand with the Russian hacking lie.

The collusion angle was made to add weight to an otherwise outdated cold war propaganda of Russians in the shadows.

If it were not around 100% of attention would focus on the blatant assassination of a whistle blower.

WIKILEAKS has alluded with little doubt left that though they dont reveal sources, they were given the data from Rich, after his death primed the release of all those "insurance" archives.

It WILL be revealed, even if it destroys wiki's reputation that there was one sole source for the leak and it WAS NOT a Russian hack. The digital evididence proves this with little doubt left.

There is a fevered pitch that worries me. It reminds me of the pre 9/11, Iraq, WMD nonsense.

I feel strongly that if we let them lie to us again while providing nothing but conjecture and "intelligence rumors" like was done with Iraq, that we will set back international relations by decades and bring the chance of war right back to the center of our world round table.

I will NOT be quiet like I was with the Iraq, WMD, 9/11 propaganda, after it became nausiating and scary in its cognitive dissonance.

I get that people dont like Trump. Fair enough.

This is dangerous though. They can and WILL do this to the next person not chosen by the DC consensus.

That is unacceptable by any measure.


edit on 8 7 2017 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 12:01 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

No Russians hired Fusion or Steele and had nothing to do with trying to lobby anything...



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 12:10 PM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: shooterbrody



No not really. First please provide the proof that anything was given to the trump campaign at that meeting. I have seen none.


Did you happen to read section b?


(b)Contributions and donations by foreign nationals in connection with elections. A foreign national shall not, directly or indirectly, make a contribution or a donation of money or other thing of value, or expressly or impliedly promise to make a contribution or a donation, in connection with any Federal, State, or local election.


It appears only a promise need to be made for it to be in violation and disbursements are not mention in that section.



Please show me the definition of "thing of value". It is not there.



Correct, it's not there. Here is a legal definition:


Anything of value refers to any goods that have a certain utility to the recipient that is real and that is ordinarily not given away free but is purchased.


definitions.uslegal.com...

Opposition research is not given away freely. It is purchased.



You are just blowing smoke.


I'm simply discussing the issue. The OP asked what laws may have been violated and I responded with what I have read legal scholars talking about on this issue. As I said, I don't know how much weight that holds or how it would play-out in the courts. This is unprecedented.

I know what I posted may not confirm your biases and it may hurt your feelings, but this is a potential issue that may come up in the future.


Wow, when you put it in that context, it seems the RNC and DNC folks who paid for the Steele Dosier are flat out guilty in that instance. I say hang them.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 12:10 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

I think there's a big difference there. If the report is correct it exposes a huge vulnerability for Ukraine, it seems natural for Ukraine to deny it.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 12:10 PM
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originally posted by: Flatfish

For our POTUS, the crime will obviously be Obstruction of Justice. A crime that he has basically admitted to on more than one occasion. He's just too stupid to realize it.



Still not seeing the Trump connection. So you are connecting Sessions to Trump, when it looks like Sessions is the one who lied...not that those meetings were of anything big other than the normal operations of a Senator, and the $230 million dollar suit, ok once again it looks like all Sessions , but of course it's Trump.

You are also missing key points in all this and that part is the special relationship Natalia had with the Obama administration and DNC... but then all that doesn't fit your narrative very well, so its unimportant.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 12:11 PM
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a reply to: shooterbrody



Firstly, again please show ANY evidence or proof ANYTHING was exchanged at the meeting. That will be a prerequisite for any later argument discussion whatever you want to call it. Many on both sides of that meeting have stated publicly that nothing was given or taken.


It appears that section B states only a promise to contribute a thing of value be made.



TO MAKE A CONTRIBUTION OR A DONATION. Was a contribution made?....nope Was a donation made?....nope


True. But a contribution was promised.



Your selection of "legal" definitions is meaningless within the CFR. I don't know why you don't get that. The CFR sections have specific definition sections for a reason.


Thing of value is not defined in that. Therefore they would have to revert to a definition such as the one I posted.



Even your talking heads on msnbc understand that.


Why would I care about what they say? Are you just trying to be a partisan douche? Mission accomplished.



It is not. This is exactly WHY the CFR has specific definitions. Please site any legal scholar that has stated differently.



Federal investigators might have reason to examine whether Donald Trump Jr., the eldest son of the president, broke campaign finance law when he attended a meeting with a Russian lawyer who he believed would offer damaging information about Hillary Clinton, legal experts told NBC News.

Trump Jr., who has claimed that there was nothing untoward about the meeting last summer, may have violated a federal statute that says a political campaign cannot "knowingly solicit, accept, or receive" any "contribution or donation" from a foreign national, experts said.



"I think that's the most important legal issue and where he's most legally exposed," said Ryan Goodman, a law professor at New York University who served as special counsel to the Defense Department in 2015 and 2016.


www.nbcnews.com...


Many legal commentators say Mr Trump Jr's correspondence with Rob Goldstone, who set up the meeting, and the subsequent meeting with Ms Veselnitskaya possibly constitutes a violation of US campaign statute. Specifically, Section 30121 of Title 52 of federal campaign law, which deals with "contributions and donations by foreign nationals". "It is illegal for a foreign government or a foreign national to give something of value to a candidate or campaign," says Nathaniel Persily, an election law expert and professor at Stanford Law School.


www.bbc.com...



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 12:12 PM
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originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: Grambler

No Russians hired Fusion or Steele and had nothing to do with trying to lobby anything...



Browder — a former hedge fund manager who spearheaded the passage of the Magnitsky Act after his tax lawyer, Sergei Magnitsky, died in a Russian prison in 2009 — alleged in a complaint filed with the Treasury Department last year that Fusion's work for the US law firm BakerHostetler violated the Foreign Agents Registration Act because it served Russian government interests.

The chairman of the Judiciary Committee, Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley, picked up on that complaint and wrote a letter to the Justice Department in March asking whether Fusion GPS and its cofounder, Glenn Simpson, was being investigated for a potential FARA violation.

BakerHostetler was hired last year by Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya to represent a Cyprus-based Russian holding group named Prevezon that had been accused of money laundering by the US government. Browder was targeted by Simpson, BakerHostetler, and Veselnitskaya, he claims, because he told the government that Prevezon laundered money that was stolen as part of the $230 million tax fraud scheme that Magnitsky uncovered.

Browder told the Senate Judiciary Committee on Thursday that Fusion pitched false stories to journalists about Magnitsky, including that he died of natural causes, which Browder disputes. Fusion has maintained, however, that it "did not spread false information about William Browder or Sergei Magnitsky."


www.businessinsider.com...

So Fusion GPS and the russian lawyer that Trump jr. met with were working together to try to get the Magenstky act repealed.

Apparently you missed this, but now that it is proven to you, I assume you find the DNC PAYING Fusion GPS for opposition research to be an even bigger deal than the Trump jr. meeting with the russian lawyer, and will be for an independent investigation into this.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 12:13 PM
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originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: Grambler

No Russians hired Fusion or Steele and had nothing to do with trying to lobby anything...


The FusionGPS founder has already been named on the undeclared lobbying complaint filed with the House in relation to the Magnitsky act.
There have also been accusationd of smearing political opponents of Russia as a service offered by GPS and carried out by GPS - though that is an accusation (albeit under testimony).

You would be correct in saying there is no clear evidence that the Russians hired FusionGPS for the Steele document, in the same way there is no evidence of any collusion with Russia by any Trump campaign team member to influence the election.
edit on 7/8/2017 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 12:15 PM
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originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: shooterbrody



No not really. First please provide the proof that anything was given to the trump campaign at that meeting. I have seen none.


Did you happen to read section b?


(b)Contributions and donations by foreign nationals in connection with elections. A foreign national shall not, directly or indirectly, make a contribution or a donation of money or other thing of value, or expressly or impliedly promise to make a contribution or a donation, in connection with any Federal, State, or local election.


It appears only a promise need to be made for it to be in violation and disbursements are not mention in that section.



Please show me the definition of "thing of value". It is not there.



Correct, it's not there. Here is a legal definition:


Anything of value refers to any goods that have a certain utility to the recipient that is real and that is ordinarily not given away free but is purchased.


definitions.uslegal.com...

Opposition research is not given away freely. It is purchased.



You are just blowing smoke.


I'm simply discussing the issue. The OP asked what laws may have been violated and I responded with what I have read legal scholars talking about on this issue. As I said, I don't know how much weight that holds or how it would play-out in the courts. This is unprecedented.

I know what I posted may not confirm your biases and it may hurt your feelings, but this is a potential issue that may come up in the future.


Wow, when you put it in that context, it seems the RNC and DNC folks who paid for the Steele Dosier are flat out guilty in that instance. I say hang them.


I'm not sure about that. FusionGPS is not a foreign agent. In the context of the work they did that was related to the Russian lawyer, they did not directly work for them. They were retained by a US law firm to do their work.

There is a very distinct and important degree of separation there which is why no one is claiming the DNC/RNC "colluded" with a foreign agent when hiring FusionGPS to do opposition research. Well, except the pro-Trump folks that seem to be desperate to catch the DNC is an equally perilous situation as Trump's team may be in.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 12:16 PM
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originally posted by: tadaman

I feel strongly that if we let them lie to us again while providing nothing but conjecture and "intelligence rumors" like was done with Iraq, that we will set back international relations by decades and bring the chance of war right back to the center of our world round table.



The 17 agencies came from only one mouth....Hillary's. It seems anything she says is taken as a true unquestionable fact on face value alone. Just like she started the whole birther movement by being the one person to state that Obama was not eligible.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 12:16 PM
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originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: Grambler

No Russians hired Fusion or Steele and had nothing to do with trying to lobby anything...


wait, so your rules you quoted only apply to Russia? I missed that part, could you point it out for me?



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 12:17 PM
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originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: Grambler

I think there's a big difference there. If the report is correct it exposes a huge vulnerability for Ukraine, it seems natural for Ukraine to deny it.


And now another co conspriator in the story.

The government of Ukraine must be lying, it couldn't be that Crowdstrike was wrong.

Again, why would the FBI risk the biggest investigation they have probably ever had on a private company connected to the victim (the DNC) that may or may not have been wrong about the exact same issue in Ukraine?

Face it, there is absolutely not even one good reason for the FBI to not have looked at that server, and you know that iof the roles were reversed, and the FBI just took a private firm connected to the RNC's word on looking at Trumps digital devices or servers, you would be outraged.



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