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Help me understand the Russian Collusion angle.

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posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:01 AM
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First it went from Russia hacked the election, to collusion, to meddling, to still under investigation, to now searching the law books to see if there was any crime committed.

All the while the other side tried to hack the election, "colluded" with Russia, meddled in others elections, is under investigation and has commited many, many crimes..




posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:02 AM
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originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Dudemo5

originally posted by: UKTruth

I am not making an argument.


That much is clear.


Of course it is.
It is not an argument to ask for evidence.
The onus is on you to back up your argument, which you have failed to do.

I will refer you back to the OP and the challenge to provide the details of any crime that was committed.
Good luck.


Already done.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:08 AM
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originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Flatfish

If Putin himself delivered a box full of pictures of Hillary humping the corpse of Stalin to Trump Jr, there is still no crime. There is dirty politics. Unless you can explain the illegality to me, which is what I asked for to begin with.


OK, let me go a little deeper.

The $230 million dollar money laundering scheme that was allegedly being perpetrated by Prevezon Holdings, (the company whose owners sent Natalia to meet with Don Jr) was originally uncovered by a Russian lawyer named Sergei Magnitsky in 2008, while working for an investment advisory firm called Hermitage Capital.

Yes, the very same Sergei Magnitsky who ended up dead while in Russian custody and for which the "Magnitsky Act" was named.

Yes, the very same Magnitsky Act that Putin protested by halting all adoptions of Russian children by American families.

Yes, the very same Magnitsky Act that Don Jr himself stated was the only thing Natalia wanted to talk about during the meeting.

So, Donald Trump fires Preet Bharara, the U.S. Attorney bringing the case in the Southern District of New York.

Then we have Jeff Sessions, our U.S. Attorney General who had to recuse himself from the Russian probe because of the fact that he lied to Congress during his confirmation hearings. Lied about what you ask? Meeting with Russian dignitaries during the campaign, that's what.

Well, that very same Jeff Sessions settles a $230 million dollar suit against the very people who sent Natalia to meet with Don Jr and he does so for a lousy $6 million dollars and no admission of guilt.

One would almost be inclined to think, or at least wonder if Natalia may have ask for Trump to make the Prevezon Holdings case disappear in exchange for the folder of dirt on Hillary.

And I haven't even mentioned the role played by Deutsche Bank in this scheme or how they were recently fined over $630 million dollars for their role in another Russian money laundering scheme, or how they are Donald Trump's primary lending source because American banks won't do business with him anymore due to all the bankruptcies.

I'm not a lawyer who knows what relevant statutes will come into play here, but I'd just bet that numerous laws have been broken and perpetrators will be named.

Just the same, this is one deep rabbit hole and it's gonna take a while to get to the bottom.

For our POTUS, the crime will obviously be Obstruction of Justice. A crime that he has basically admitted to on more than one occasion. He's just too stupid to realize it.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:08 AM
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originally posted by: knowledgehunter0986
First it went from Russia hacked the election,

Russia absolutely sought to interfere with American democratic processes. That argument has never waned. It only appears to be disputed by the most hardcore zealots. A woman is going to go to prison for leaking a classified NSA document showing the extent of the Russian meddling into U.S. voter rolls and targeted Russian propaganda.
So yeah, that happened.



to collusion,

The collusion angle is STILL BEING INVESTIGATED. This implies collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russian government and is the subject of multiple ongoing investigations.



to meddling,

"Meddling" and "Hacking the election" both refer to the same thing.



to still under investigation,

Yep. It's still under investigation.



to now searching the law books to see if there was any crime committed.

Several laws HAVE in fact been violated, no searching of the law books required:
1) Flynn violated federal code 1001 when he willfully lied about his meetings with the Russian ambassador. Charges could also be brought under the Logan Act.
2) Trump and Trump Jr. also violated federal code 1001 when they orchestrated a lie about the purpose of their meeting with the Russian lawyer
3) There is enough in the campaign finance statute to bring charges against Trump Jr. for "solicitation of something of value from a foreign actor." I doubt such charges would be brought. But the point is that this doesn't require "searching the law books." That statute says what it says. The only question is how the courts would rule.



edit on 7-8-2017 by Dudemo5 because: (no reason given)

edit on 7-8-2017 by Dudemo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:09 AM
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originally posted by: theantediluvian

Are you not concerned with the lying? Are you not troubled by the obvious demonstration of weakness from Trump? Do you really want the new standard for US elections being that adversarial nations pick a candidate and work as hard as they can to get that person elected? What happens if next time they actually hack the election itself?



Are you seriously going to pretend you don't understand that all governments at least try to manipulate other countries electoral processes?

And you can even manufacture some faux outrage over this, and in the same damn post, make the statement that not enough evidence exists in the public eye to make any conclusion.

I am not only not concerned with politicians lying, I'd be #ing flabbergasted to find one that didn't. But then, I'm a realist, where as you seem to reside in some anti-trump Utopian pipe dream.

This is a witch hunt as facts appear today. Perhaps that will change, then again perhaps not. And if they don't, then the world's time would have been wasted for months over a soiled diaper and dirty politics. Go #ing figure.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:09 AM
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originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

so all of your hate and anger at the moment is based on hope and conspiracy theory?


For me personally, a lot of my hate (that's a pretty strong word, but sure, we'll go with it) and anger is because I think Trump is a horrible leader and a terrible representative of the US to the world. If, on top of that, he and/or his team colluded with Russians to gain his power, then that's like gasoline on a fire.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:12 AM
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originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Dudemo5

Do you think of fusion GPS is russian, and the dnc and some republicans paid them to spread dirt on trump, that this is a crime?


How is Fusion GPS "Russian?" Because they were contracted to assist Veselnitskaya's anti-Magnitsky Act lobbying efforts? I'd say it makes them sleazy and mercenary-like but Russian?

I do find it concerning that they were working with Veselnitskaya's team and that Veselnitskaya is almost certainly a Kremlin agent. Regarding the dossier, I think there are serious questions about whether or not the Kremlin knew it was being compiled and intentionally fed Steele information they wanted to be in the dossier.

Was Russia hedging its bet? Playing both sides? I don't know.

As for the legality of it. If Fusion GPS and Ron Dellums weren't registered as foreign agents while assisting Veselnitskaya, they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Regarding the DTJ meeting, it doesn't seem any laws were broken and I'm not sure that any laws would have been broken even if they had gotten the goods they were seeking.

The Steele dossier is further removed than that. There's no evidence that's been brought to the public about involvement with the Clinton campaign. Nor has there been anything that indicates that Fusion GPS was coordinating with the Russians or using Steele to receive anything from the Russian government. So if DTJ wasn't violating any laws, it seems even more unlikely that whatever the identity of Fusion GPS's clients, that those people would be guilty of any crimes.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:19 AM
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a reply to: network dude



Show me where in our laws, it states that political opponents cannot receive intel on their opponent from Russia, or other sources.


This is where the entire issue gets very tricky, as we stand on unprecedented ground. Trump Jr admitted that he attended that meeting with the intent of getting damaging info on Clinton. He even brought people with him that were part of his father's campaign.

11 CFR 110.20 states that "A foreign national shall not, directly or indirectly, make a contribution or a donation of money or other thing of value,or expressly or impliedly promise to make a contribution or a donation, in connection with any Federal, State, or local election."

I think it's reasonable to say that Russia would of had to spend a little money to dig-up that damaging info on Clinton, which they were offering to Trump Jr and he was willing to accept, and that info could be considered a "thing of value".

As far as what we know as the general public, this issue appears to be the most damning and pressing for the Trump team. But like I said, this is unprecedented. I'm not sure how the courts would view something like this. It would be interesting to see how it was argued from both sides.

Anyway, that appears to be the law that covers that particular situation.
edit on 7-8-2017 by introvert because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:25 AM
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originally posted by: redtic

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

so all of your hate and anger at the moment is based on hope and conspiracy theory?


For me personally, a lot of my hate (that's a pretty strong word, but sure, we'll go with it) and anger is because I think Trump is a horrible leader and a terrible representative of the US to the world. If, on top of that, he and/or his team colluded with Russians to gain his power, then that's like gasoline on a fire.


If he and the Kremlin planned all the amazing political savvy that Trump obviously showed in this election, (I can't believe I was able to type that through the laughter) then prove it and impeach/arrest him. That would be a crime against America.

But if he just happened to be a loud mouth, arrogant ass, with ass loads of money, who decided to run for President, and with his genius plan of saying stupid things to get the media to give him free coverage and make his name more memorable than Hillary, and all the evidence against him with regard to Russian collusion is circumstantial and likely the normal chain of business in the high finance world, then no crime exists and the joke is on all those who wrote him off as a joke.

The most damning stuff to arise out of this, is the corruptness (with facts to back it all up) of the DNC, which did turn the election to Trumps favor (IMHO). It's looking like all that came from within the DNC, and not a Russian hack. If that is the case, there is no case to be had. Would you agree?

And on that note, as an American, I would much rather have a better option than DJT for president, but as an American I wasn't offered a better choice, so I sit here and hope for the best of our president and continually get angry at the way the left tries to disrupt the process of government with lies and deceit as they were proven to use prior to election day, and still supported by "Americans" on the left. (those whom I affectionately call Tr-Hators)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:31 AM
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a reply to: network dude


Are you seriously going to pretend you don't understand that all governments at least try to manipulate other countries electoral processes?


Are you seriously going to pretend that the level of interference in the last election is standard fare for American elections? Just business as usual?


And you can even manufacture some faux outrage over this, and in the same damn post, make the statement that not enough evidence exists in the public eye to make any conclusion.


Huh? I didn't say that there isn't enough publicly available evidence to substantiate Russian interference. I said that the DTJ meeting might be the extent of the collusion/attempted collusion revealed. Not the same thing at all.


I am not only not concerned with politicians lying, I'd be #ing flabbergasted to find one that didn't. But then, I'm a realist, where as you seem to reside in some anti-trump Utopian pipe dream.


Lmao. You Trumpkins just keep racing toward the bottom to lower the standards. Of course politicians lie. Most people do. That doesn't mean that all lies are of the same significance does it? Of course not. And when politicians tell big lies with significant impact and consequence, they should be held to task for them.

But hey, you be sure to run around and admonish all your fellow Trumpkins who are uselessly yammering about "draining the swamp" since you're such a hardcore realist all of sudden.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:31 AM
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Here's a link with easy to read charts and graphs for the terminally confused.

www.politico.com...



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:33 AM
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originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

You are irght that everything hinges on the idea thaat Russia did indeed hack the DNC.

So why won't the DNC leave the FBI look at their servers? And why hasn't the FBI demanded it?

If Russia didn't hack the DNC, then Trump Jr. meeting with Russians means nothing. Otherwise, Hillarys team meeting with Ukraine would be just as big of a crime.

Even if Russia did the hack, that doesn't remotely prove Trump or his team knew of that, or helped them or asked them to do it, or received info from that hack from Russia.

On the Steele dossier, lets not forget that both RNC and DNC paid for or supported this and used it against Trump. And it now turns out that Fusion GPS was the go to for the Steele dossier, and it now appears that they are a Russian group (who by the way refuses to testify).

So unlike the Russian hacking story which we have seen zero proof for, and the FBI is letting the most crucial piece evidence go without looking at it, we know for a fact that the DNC and some of Republicans paid a suspected Russian group to spread lies about Trump. Where is the outrage, where are the cries of collusion?



This issue has been brought up countless times in these collusion threads by Grambler and many others but if it has ever been addressed by a collusion believer I must have missed it. Would someone please explain how this GIANT elephant in the room is is so consistently and completely ignored?



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:35 AM
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a reply to: network dude

Fusion GPS is an American firm originally hired by Never Trumpers in the GOP. When Trump won the nomination, Fusion was dismissed and took their research to the DNC. In June 2016 Russia hacked the DNC and Wikileaks began publishing emails. That is when Fusion hired Christopher Steele, to investigate possible ties between Trump and Russia. The election happened soon after and when Trump won the research job was over but Steele decided to continue on his own and turned his research over to the FBI and the media.

So the difference is... the Clinton campaign never hired Fusion or Steele, whereas members of the Trump campaign willfully met with a Russian citizen claiming to have dirt on Hillary.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:36 AM
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a reply to: theantediluvian

Yea, I just took off my rose colored glasses last week.

But fantastic steps in your dance around the idea that all countries including the US meddle in other countries election process for their benefit. Your shoes may need new taps installed. (or it's possible that you really do need things written in crayon to comprehend them)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:38 AM
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originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: network dude

Fusion GPS is an American firm originally hired by Never Trumpers in the GOP. When Trump won the nomination, Fusion was dismissed and took their research to the DNC. In June 2016 Russia hacked the DNC and Wikileaks began publishing emails. That is when Fusion hired Christopher Steele, to investigate possible ties between Trump and Russia. The election happened soon after and when Trump won the research job was over but Steele decided to continue on his own and turned his research over to the FBI and the media.

So the difference is... the Clinton campaign never hired Fusion or Steele, whereas members of the Trump campaign willfully met with a Russian citizen claiming to have dirt on Hillary.


fantastic rendition of facts. Bravo. Now, in the spirit of the OP, where is the crime?



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:45 AM
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a reply to: underpass61


“The DNC had several meetings with representatives of the FBI's Cyber Division and its Washington (DC) Field Office, the Department of Justice's National Security Division, and U.S. Attorney's Offices, and it responded to a variety of requests for cooperation, but the FBI never requested access to the DNC's computer servers,” Eric Walker, the DNC’s deputy communications director, told BuzzFeed News in an email.

The FBI has instead relied on computer forensics from a third-party tech security company, CrowdStrike, which first determined in May of last year that the DNC’s servers had been infiltrated by Russia-linked hackers, the U.S. intelligence official told BuzzFeed News.

“CrowdStrike is pretty good. There’s no reason to believe that anything that they have concluded is not accurate,” the intelligence official said, adding they were confident Russia was behind the widespread hacks.


Buzz Feed



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:51 AM
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a reply to: network dude

Possible crime...



§ 110.20 Prohibition on contributions, donations, expenditures, independent expenditures, and disbursements by foreign nationals (52 U.S.C. 30121, 36 U.S.C. 510).

(a)Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following definitions apply:

(1)Disbursement has the same meaning as in 11 CFR 300.2(d).

(2)Donation has the same meaning as in 11 CFR 300.2(e).

(3)Foreign national means -

(i) A foreign principal, as defined in 22 U.S.C. 611(b); or

(ii) An individual who is not a citizen of the United States and who is not lawfully admitted for permanent residence, as defined in 8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(20); however,

(iii)Foreign national shall not include any individual who is a citizen of the United States, or who is a national of the United States as defined in 8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(22).

(4)Knowingly means that a person must:

(i) Have actual knowledge that the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national;

(ii) Be aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to conclude that there is a substantial probability that the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national; or

(iii) Be aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to inquire whether the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national, but the person failed to conduct a reasonable inquiry.


Link

edit on 8/7/2017 by Kali74 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:52 AM
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a reply to: Kali74


CORRECTION
January 5, 2017, at 2:09 a.m.
The article has been updated to reflect that CrowdStrike first discovered Russia-backed hackers had infiltrated the DNC in May 2016. A previous version of the article incorrectly said the group first discovered it in March.




Perfect.

www.buzzfeed.com...
edit on Mon Aug 7 2017 by DontTreadOnMe because: SOURCE ADDED Using Content From Other Websites



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:55 AM
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a reply to: Kali74

You're ok with the FBI relying on third-party info in the most crucial (to the democrats) investigation of our time? How exactly would that hold up as "proof", especially when these third-party forensics were paid for by the DNC?



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:57 AM
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Everything "Russia" happened under the watchful eyes of the Obama Administration.




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