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Help me understand the Russian Collusion angle.

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posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:32 AM
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originally posted by: Dudemo5

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Dudemo5

the other cases seem to be individual, non-related instances of regular business coupled with stringent requirements to document any and all activity with foreign entities. (unless there is more to them than released so far)

Remember, this has been linked to Russia from the start, so everything has been investigated with that in mind and with the end goal of tying it to Russia in some form or fashion.

As I have said many times, when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.


Flynn was working as a Foreign agent on behalf of Turkey, which means he was being paid to seek outcomes beneficial for Turkey at the same time he was working on behalf of the American people.

As far as those conversations he failed to report, he may have violated the Logan Act.

The lies he told about the meetings were also a violation of federal law (U.S. Code 1001) related to making false statements.



Are we moving on to Turkish collusion now?




posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:35 AM
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originally posted by: network dude

I asked for the crime to be explained. You were happy to explain the conspiracy theory to me, and others were trying to tie this to campaign finance, which was a good effort, but already known and explained away.


The campaign finance angle has not been explained away.

I've said I don't think that would be levied as a sole charge, but that doesn't mean what he did was legal. The most commonly cited exemption from the law (the volunteer exception) clearly does not apply in this situation.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:35 AM
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originally posted by: Dudemo5

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Dudemo5

the other cases seem to be individual, non-related instances of regular business coupled with stringent requirements to document any and all activity with foreign entities. (unless there is more to them than released so far)

Remember, this has been linked to Russia from the start, so everything has been investigated with that in mind and with the end goal of tying it to Russia in some form or fashion.

As I have said many times, when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.


Flynn was working as a Foreign agent on behalf of Turkey, which means he was being paid to seek outcomes beneficial for Turkey at the same time he was working on behalf of the American people.

As far as those conversations he failed to report, he may have violated the Logan Act.

The lies he told about the meetings were also a violation of federal law (U.S. Code 1001) related to making false statements.



I understand that. Flynn spent most of his life in service to his country and nothing offered points to him being a traitor, but rather not understanding his responsibilities with regard to paperwork. If he is guilty of something sinister, I think it would be common knowledge by now, but either way, that doesn't explain the illegality of Trump Jr's meeting, which I keep seeing as some "smoking gun" evidence by some.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:38 AM
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originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Dudemo5

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Dudemo5

the other cases seem to be individual, non-related instances of regular business coupled with stringent requirements to document any and all activity with foreign entities. (unless there is more to them than released so far)

Remember, this has been linked to Russia from the start, so everything has been investigated with that in mind and with the end goal of tying it to Russia in some form or fashion.

As I have said many times, when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.


Flynn was working as a Foreign agent on behalf of Turkey, which means he was being paid to seek outcomes beneficial for Turkey at the same time he was working on behalf of the American people.

As far as those conversations he failed to report, he may have violated the Logan Act.

The lies he told about the meetings were also a violation of federal law (U.S. Code 1001) related to making false statements.



Are we moving on to Turkish collusion now?


Well, it doesn't help that Turkey happens to be one of the few countries in that part of the world for which speculation exists that the President might be Putin's puppet. There's a good write-up about this on Forbes.

In any case, certainly you can understand what a conflict of interest is.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:40 AM
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originally posted by: Dudemo5

originally posted by: network dude

I asked for the crime to be explained. You were happy to explain the conspiracy theory to me, and others were trying to tie this to campaign finance, which was a good effort, but already known and explained away.


The campaign finance angle has not been explained away.

I've said I don't think that would be levied as a sole charge, but that doesn't mean what he did was legal. The most commonly cited exemption from the law (the volunteer exception) clearly does not apply in this situation.


It will never be explained away to people over reaching to try and craft the law to fit something they want to believe is a crime. Can you show any precedent?



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:40 AM
link   

originally posted by: Dudemo5

originally posted by: network dude

I asked for the crime to be explained. You were happy to explain the conspiracy theory to me, and others were trying to tie this to campaign finance, which was a good effort, but already known and explained away.


The campaign finance angle has not been explained away.

I've said I don't think that would be levied as a sole charge, but that doesn't mean what he did was legal. The most commonly cited exemption from the law (the volunteer exception) clearly does not apply in this situation.


I am not an expert in that field, but as I understand it, a monetary value would have to be associated with the information provided in the meeting, (which may or may not even exist) and then it would still be very questionable if it could be construed to fit with this case. Short version- it's a long shot based on desperation.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:41 AM
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originally posted by: Dudemo5

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Dudemo5

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Dudemo5

the other cases seem to be individual, non-related instances of regular business coupled with stringent requirements to document any and all activity with foreign entities. (unless there is more to them than released so far)

Remember, this has been linked to Russia from the start, so everything has been investigated with that in mind and with the end goal of tying it to Russia in some form or fashion.

As I have said many times, when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.


Flynn was working as a Foreign agent on behalf of Turkey, which means he was being paid to seek outcomes beneficial for Turkey at the same time he was working on behalf of the American people.

As far as those conversations he failed to report, he may have violated the Logan Act.

The lies he told about the meetings were also a violation of federal law (U.S. Code 1001) related to making false statements.



Are we moving on to Turkish collusion now?


Well, it doesn't help that Turkey happens to be one of the few countries in that part of the world for which speculation exists that the President might be Putin's puppet. There's a good write-up about this on Forbes.

In any case, certainly you can understand what a conflict of interest is.


Ah I see, so Turkey it is then because they might be Putin's puppet.
Do you even stop to review what you write?


Your arguments are like a statistical model with 1,000 degrees of freedom - it can fit anything you like, but falls flat on it's face in the real world.
edit on 7/8/2017 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:41 AM
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a reply to: network dude

That's my understanding too. And the value would have to be based on real evidence that Russia hacked the DNC. Bringing us back to the beginning....



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:44 AM
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a reply to: Dudemo5

Do you think of fusion GPS is russian, and the dnc and some republicans paid them to spread dirt on trump, that this is a crime?



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:45 AM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin




While the document has in no way been verified I would not be so quick as to dismiss it as a bunch of lies as its been treated very seriously by the intelligence community. 


Much in that document has indeed been verified.
This is just another ducking your head line pushed by the right.

www.quora.com...


The Trump operation was both supported and directed by Putin

TRUE say 17 intelligence agencies who have come to this conclusion


Russia has an extensive state sponsored offensive cyber program that targets foreign countries, large corporations especially banks.

TRUE through both the IC as well as our I- Balls (sorry, couldn't resist)




Evidence of extensive conspiracy between Trump campaign team and Kremlin

TRUE - Flynn, Manafort, Kushner, Page, Trump Jr…by the time you've read this answer very likely this list will be incomplete, perhaps laughably so




Trump’s campaign manager Paul Manafort and foreign policy adviser Carter Paige were in seemingly continuous contact with various Russians from the upper echelon of the Kremlin

TRUE - Manafort did not dispute this when asked about it. His explanation for the fact that he was communicating with Russian spies: "it's not like these people wear name badges that say I’m a Russian Intelligence Officer.” Mr Common R. Sense was also being interviewed along with Mr Manafort and could be seen shaking his head during Manafort’s Tour de Force response before volunteering “and why would they wear name badges Pauly Walnuts? You're on a first named basis with each of them.”



There's a lot more at the link.
So while not all of it has been verified there is much that has been. It's a lie to continue to say it has in no way has been verified because that simply is not true.

Now Mueller is following a money trail. I can't pretend to know what he's looking for there but he's not doing it because he wants to stress trump out. He's an investigator who's been proven to be straight and narrow.
Despite the idiotic claims from the Whitehouse about political donations.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:46 AM
link   

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: Dudemo5

originally posted by: network dude

I asked for the crime to be explained. You were happy to explain the conspiracy theory to me, and others were trying to tie this to campaign finance, which was a good effort, but already known and explained away.


The campaign finance angle has not been explained away.

I've said I don't think that would be levied as a sole charge, but that doesn't mean what he did was legal. The most commonly cited exemption from the law (the volunteer exception) clearly does not apply in this situation.


I am not an expert in that field, but as I understand it, a monetary value would have to be associated with the information provided in the meeting, (which may or may not even exist) and then it would still be very questionable if it could be construed to fit with this case. Short version- it's a long shot based on desperation.



If actual charges were brought, with nothing else to support them, I think I'd agree. But like I said, I don't think that will happen. If charges along this vein see the light of day, it will be part of something bigger.

As far as the smoking gun angle, it's because the Trump campaign has denied any involvement whatsoever with Russians, and here we have an email chain from Trump Jr. where he is expressing excitement at the prospect of gathering dirt on Hillary directly from the Kremlin as part of "the Russian government's support of Mr. Trump." After Trump worked WITH his son to craft a carefully orchestrated lie about what happened at that meeting.

At the very least, it's a smoking gun that Trump has been lying for months and has no compunctions whatsoever about continuing to do so.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:47 AM
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a reply to: network dude


It turns out the person he met with was Russian.


No. It didn't "turn out" the person he met with was Russian anymore than they were meeting to discuss "adoption." Let me remind you of what the email said:


Emin just called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting.

The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.

This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin.


A different nation, in another context, this still would not be a good look but this is something that occurred while Russia was seeking to influence the outcome of the election in other ways. This happened what? Less than two weeks before the DNC hack was revealed?

As with the lies about Flynn's communications with Kislyak, this is clearly something the administration thought was worth lying about repeatedly.


To date, this is the entirety of the Russian Collusion angle, and it was fully admitted by Trump Jr.


No it wasn't. It was something that was deliberately kept secret, omitted from Kushner's security clearance forms and lied about even as it was being exposed by the media. As with Flynn, they lied about it until the bitter end.

Nor is it the entirety of the "Russian collusion angle." It's the only compelling evidence of collusion that has been made public.

Maybe there's nothing else to be found regarding Team Trump and their involvement with the Russians but does it seem reasonable that any of these liars should be taken at their word? Would you take Hillary Clinton at her word? Of course not. Why wouldn't you? Because she's been proven a liar more than once and her credibility is s#.

And regardless of whether there was any successful collusion between anyone around Trump and the Russians, the Russian interference campaign certainly deserves investigating.

That's something I would expect the POTUS to agree with wholeheartedly. But he doesn't. Instead, he tweets about setting up a cybersecurity force with the Russians. He drags his feet before eventually signing a sanctions bill with a signing statement in protest. One he only signed because he knew that his veto would have been overturned by his own party.

Are you not concerned with the lying? Are you not troubled by the obvious demonstration of weakness from Trump? Do you really want the new standard for US elections being that adversarial nations pick a candidate and work as hard as they can to get that person elected? What happens if next time they actually hack the election itself?



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:50 AM
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a reply to: Dudemo5

Deciding to deny meetings with Russians in the midst of a witch hunt is understandable - though ill advised.
Certainly no evidence of any crime being committed.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:50 AM
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originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: Dudemo5

Do you think of fusion GPS is russian, and the dnc and some republicans paid them to spread dirt on trump, that this is a crime?


Fusion GPS is based in D.C., as far as I know. Did the DNC know Fusion GPS had ties to the Russian government when that work was solicited? This is an honest question. As far as I've read, it seems like D.C. politicians have used Fusion GPS for years.
edit on 7-8-2017 by Dudemo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:51 AM
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originally posted by: UKTruth
a reply to: Dudemo5

Deciding to deny meetings with Russians in the midst of a witch hunt is understandable - though ill advised.
Certainly no evidence of any crime being committed.


It WAS, in fact, a crime for Flynn to deny those "meetings with Russia."



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:53 AM
link   

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Dudemo5

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Dudemo5

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Dudemo5

the other cases seem to be individual, non-related instances of regular business coupled with stringent requirements to document any and all activity with foreign entities. (unless there is more to them than released so far)

Remember, this has been linked to Russia from the start, so everything has been investigated with that in mind and with the end goal of tying it to Russia in some form or fashion.

As I have said many times, when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.


Flynn was working as a Foreign agent on behalf of Turkey, which means he was being paid to seek outcomes beneficial for Turkey at the same time he was working on behalf of the American people.

As far as those conversations he failed to report, he may have violated the Logan Act.

The lies he told about the meetings were also a violation of federal law (U.S. Code 1001) related to making false statements.



Are we moving on to Turkish collusion now?


Well, it doesn't help that Turkey happens to be one of the few countries in that part of the world for which speculation exists that the President might be Putin's puppet. There's a good write-up about this on Forbes.

In any case, certainly you can understand what a conflict of interest is.


Ah I see, so Turkey it is then because they might be Putin's puppet.
Do you even stop to review what you write?


Your arguments are like a statistical model with 1,000 degrees of freedom - it can fit anything you like, but falls flat on it's face in the real world.


You arguments aren't like a statistical model of any kind. They're more like vapor. They practically don't even exist.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:54 AM
link   

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: network dude


It turns out the person he met with was Russian.


No. It didn't "turn out" the person he met with was Russian anymore than they were meeting to discuss "adoption." Let me remind you of what the email said:


Emin just called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting.

The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.

This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin.


A different nation, in another context, this still would not be a good look but this is something that occurred while Russia was seeking to influence the outcome of the election in other ways. This happened what? Less than two weeks before the DNC hack was revealed?



You are misinformed and incorrect.

Kushner disclosed the meeting and that is how the meeting came into the light.
The meeting also happened at a time when there was no big 'Russian collusion' story.
The POTUS does agree that any campaign collusion with Russia, and any interference, should be investigated - he said so to Comey.




edit on Mon Aug 7 2017 by DontTreadOnMe because: trimmed overly long quote Quote Crash Course



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:55 AM
link   

originally posted by: Dudemo5

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Dudemo5

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Dudemo5

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Dudemo5

the other cases seem to be individual, non-related instances of regular business coupled with stringent requirements to document any and all activity with foreign entities. (unless there is more to them than released so far)

Remember, this has been linked to Russia from the start, so everything has been investigated with that in mind and with the end goal of tying it to Russia in some form or fashion.

As I have said many times, when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.


Flynn was working as a Foreign agent on behalf of Turkey, which means he was being paid to seek outcomes beneficial for Turkey at the same time he was working on behalf of the American people.

As far as those conversations he failed to report, he may have violated the Logan Act.

The lies he told about the meetings were also a violation of federal law (U.S. Code 1001) related to making false statements.



Are we moving on to Turkish collusion now?


Well, it doesn't help that Turkey happens to be one of the few countries in that part of the world for which speculation exists that the President might be Putin's puppet. There's a good write-up about this on Forbes.

In any case, certainly you can understand what a conflict of interest is.


Ah I see, so Turkey it is then because they might be Putin's puppet.
Do you even stop to review what you write?


Your arguments are like a statistical model with 1,000 degrees of freedom - it can fit anything you like, but falls flat on it's face in the real world.


You arguments aren't like a statistical model of any kind. They're more like vapor. They practically don't even exist.


I am not making an argument.
I am asking for evidence of a crime taking place.
In that sense my 'model' is rock solid.
As always it is up to the accuser to provide the evidence.
edit on 7/8/2017 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:58 AM
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originally posted by: UKTruth

I am not making an argument.


That much is clear.

I have already posted several examples of legal violations. It's pretty clear no evidence will satisfy you.

The most straightforward one is that it's a violation of federal law for Flynn to have lied about his meetings with Russian agents. I even cited the relevant legal code.

The campaign finance angle is legitimate, but not as straightforward. No doubt if I showed you precedent, you'd only prove my point by trying to argue how the precedent doesn't apply. I'm not playing that game with you. The statute stands as written.

And you dodge the fact that Flynn was acting as a foreign agent for another country by complaining that the country wasn't Russia? Seriously, what's wrong with you?
edit on 7-8-2017 by Dudemo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:59 AM
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originally posted by: Dudemo5

originally posted by: UKTruth

I am not making an argument.


That much is clear.


Of course it is.
It is not an argument to ask for evidence.
The onus is on you to back up your argument, which you have failed to do.

I will refer you back to the OP and the challenge to provide the details of any crime that was committed.
Good luck.
edit on 7/8/2017 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



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