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Help me understand the Russian Collusion angle.

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posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 08:49 AM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: lostbook




If Putin himself had called up and said "I've just hacked the DNC and I have some info i want to share with you" that STILL would not be an illegal act.


I made the same point in one of my previous threads.

If you simply replace the name Trump with Obama and were to apply it to everything hanging over Trump regarding Russia then I do not think there is much doubt that Trump supporters would be calling for Obama to be hung as a traitor.

They have became clouded by their political views, there is a massive cognitive dissonance taking place, they support Trump yet have to face all of this stuff coming out about it.

If this were about Obama things would look very different.


I am sure a few far right wing nut jobs would be calling for Obama to be impeached under the same circumstance - similar to the left wing nut jobs calling for Trump to be impeached.



+10 more 
posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 08:51 AM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

You are irght that everything hinges on the idea thaat Russia did indeed hack the DNC.

So why won't the DNC leave the FBI look at their servers? And why hasn't the FBI demanded it?

If Russia didn't hack the DNC, then Trump Jr. meeting with Russians means nothing. Otherwise, Hillarys team meeting with Ukraine would be just as big of a crime.

Even if Russia did the hack, that doesn't remotely prove Trump or his team knew of that, or helped them or asked them to do it, or received info from that hack from Russia.

On the Steele dossier, lets not forget that both RNC and DNC paid for or supported this and used it against Trump. And it now turns out that Fusion GPS was the go to for the Steele dossier, and it now appears that they are a Russian group (who by the way refuses to testify).

So unlike the Russian hacking story which we have seen zero proof for, and the FBI is letting the most crucial piece evidence go without looking at it, we know for a fact that the DNC and some of Republicans paid a suspected Russian group to spread lies about Trump. Where is the outrage, where are the cries of collusion?



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 08:53 AM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: UKTruth

I honestly don't understand your views on this....

It is quite clear now that something went on between the Russian government and Trumps campaign team that was improper, possibly illegal.

I don't get why you keep fighting his corner.



I'll fight anyone's corner who is being tried by the media and extreme wing nuts based on no evidence of any crime.

As to "improper", well that really isn't the discussion is it?
Was Trump Jr's meeting improper? Sure - pretty stupid too if you ask me. So? It's one of 100's if not 1000's of "improper" things done during both campaigns and since.

Back to the key question in the OP:

Show me where in our laws, it states that political opponents cannot receive intel on their opponent from Russia, or other sources.


I don;t think anyone cares that much about your feelings of what was 'improper' (or anyone else's frankly).
edit on 7/8/2017 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 08:55 AM
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originally posted by: lostbook
a reply to: network dude

Russia and the US have been on opposite sides for a long time. This whole situation reeks of indirect espionage done by Russia.

If Obama had done the same thing to win an election would you feel the same way about the election results as you do with Trump?

Would you still claim he's innocent?


could you explain the actual "crime" to me? Again, Trump Jr. took a meeting and expected dirt on Hillary. At the time, it Satan himself had been the one offering the dirt, I suspect the meeting still would have been taken. It's not illegal to gather data on your opponent. If it was, all politicians would be in jail. (not that I think that's a bad thing)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 08:58 AM
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originally posted by: Grambler


So unlike the Russian hacking story which we have seen zero proof for, and the FBI is letting the most crucial piece evidence go without looking at it, we know for a fact that the DNC and some of Republicans paid a suspected Russian group to spread lies about Trump. Where is the outrage, where are the cries of collusion?



cue the crickets. They are on next.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:03 AM
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The crime in the case of the Trump Jr. Meeting is "Solicitation of Something of Value from a Foreign Entity," which is prohibited under campaign finance law. If charges were brought, it is unclear how the courts would rule -- the case law there is not at all straightforward.

One thing is certain: This meeting wouldn't fall under the "campaign volunteer" exception if the Russian actors were being paid by the Russian government, which appears to be the case.

I do not suspect charges WOULD be brought against the Trump campaign just upon this one meeting, due to the fuzziness of the law. It will be more serious charges (if any) that finally see the light of day.

Also, understand the Trump Jr. Meeting is just one more piece of evidence in a chain that's been unfolding for the last 6 months. Lots of this is now known in the public domain (all the meetings with various Russians, the Paul Manafort situation, the Michael Flynn situation -- those two guys may see far more serious charges).

And no one knows what Mueller has. Even Mueller may not know yet -- the reason he impaneled the Grand Jury was to collect, analyze, and categorize evidence.

As much as I disapprove of Trump (read: A LOT), I personally wouldn't call for impeachment unless evidence comes to light of the following:
1) The Trump campaign assisting the Russian government in an attempt to subvert American democratic processes. For example, if the Trump campaign provided voter roll information to the Russians so the Russians could provide targeted propaganda via their bot farm.
2) If the Trump campaign offered any Quid Pro Quo to the Russians.

Lesser forms of involvement with the Russians may taint Trump politically, but I can't see real charges sticking unless there is some variation of the above.


edit on 7-8-2017 by Dudemo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:13 AM
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a reply to: Dudemo5

the other cases seem to be individual, non-related instances of regular business coupled with stringent requirements to document any and all activity with foreign entities. (unless there is more to them than released so far)

Remember, this has been linked to Russia from the start, so everything has been investigated with that in mind and with the end goal of tying it to Russia in some form or fashion.

As I have said many times, when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:14 AM
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originally posted by: Dudemo5
The crime in the case of the Trump Jr. Meeting is "Solicitation of Something of Value from a Foreign Entity," which is prohibited under campaign finance law. If charges were brought, it is unclear how the courts would rule -- the case law there is not at all straightforward.

One thing is certain: This meeting wouldn't fall under the "campaign volunteer" exception if the Russian actors were being paid by the Russian government, which appears to be the case.

I do not suspect charges WOULD be brought against the Trump campaign just upon this one meeting, due to the fuzziness of the law. It will be more serious charges (if any) that finally see the light of day.

Also, understand the Trump Jr. Meeting is just one more piece of evidence in a chain that's been unfolding for the last 6 months. Lots of this is now known in the public domain (all the meetings with various Russians, the Paul Manafort situation, the Michael Flynn situation -- those two guys may see far more serious charges).

And no one knows what Mueller has. Even Mueller may not know yet -- the reason he impaneled the Grand Jury was to collect, analyze, and categorize evidence.


One more piece of evidence? There is no evidence of any crime.
You mean one more piece of speculation and innuendo based on a set of facts that show nothing illegal.

As for the campaign finance law point - that was nonsense pushed for a few days in a massive over reach on what the campaign finance laws are for and no one of sane mind believes that will meet any standard of criminal activity - even you it seems.
edit on 7/8/2017 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:16 AM
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originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

so all of your hate and anger at the moment is based on hope and conspiracy theory? The facts that we know are that Trump Jr. took a meeting and it turns out the meeting was with a Russian. It has yet to be proven that she was working for the government, or that she ever had dirt on Clinton, only that they met.

You seem to think that all the good evidence is hidden away, but the MSM seems to know every detail due to leaks, I find it very hard to believe that anything in this investigation could remain secret due to all the leaks. But I do like your timeline. 6 months would be good to finally have a damn answer on this joke. If Trump is guilty, hang his ass, if it's found out that the DNC made all this up, they need to to identified, jailed, and fined for all the missed opportunities the US had to make some real progress, but was pre-occupied with boogymen.

Either way, somebody needs to go to jail.


It would also be a little easier to understand if you'd remove some of the blatant lies from your version of events.

For starters, Don Jr didn't take any meeting with unknown people. Do you really believe that's what millionaires like Donald Trump Jr spend their time doing? Really?

It didn't "turn out" to be a meeting with a Russian. It was planned and facilitated by Don Jr knowing full well that the intent was to take delivery of dirt on Clinton that was being furnished by the Russian government to help the Trump campaign.

It's all right there in the email chain and Don Jr's response was, "If it's what you say it is, I love it!" What part of that don't you understand?

If I'm not mistaken, Jarred Kushner even had the meeting written down in his day planner as being with Don Jr and Russians. Now how would Kushner know the meeting was with Russians if Don Jr didn't know?

Next, it has been proven that on numerous occasions, Natalia Veselnitskaya has and does work for and/or represent the Russian government. Furthermore, (according to those in attendance) she did in fact deliver a folder to Don Jr.. Who knows what was in it?

In this particular case, she was allegedly representing the Katsyv family who happens to own Prevezon Holdings, a Russian real estate investment firm that was embroiled in a $230 million money laundering case brought by Preet Bharara, (U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York) who Trump fired.

Oh yeah I almost forgot, it's the same Prevezon Holdings case that Jeff Sessions unexpectedly settled for $6 million a little over a month ago. The case alleged that Prevezon Holdings was laundering money in both, the New York and London real estate markets.

Well what do you know, Trump is a New York real estate mogul. I wonder if any of that dirty money was laundered via purchases of Trump properties?

If I were you, I wouldn't hold my breath expecting this to be over in 6 months. This is just getting started and 6 months may be a little bit conservative.

I'm betting on a year or more of investigations, then we'll see charges and trials followed by a whole slew of presidential pardons.

Donald Trump will never be officially charged with collusion, it will be obstruction of justice that takes him down and rightfully so.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:17 AM
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I'll admit from the beginning that I'm skeptical of anything that comes out of Washington but for me Mueller is the worst guy to take this case. Robert S. Mueller III was high up in the cover up on 9-11 so it's no surprise its him leading the thin Russian angle against Trump.

Getting that personal bias out and aside, I want to see all the information that I can out of government. Getting the DNC files and Trump's phone conversations out there makes this the most transparent our government has looked in my life. I understand that the laws are written to stop this but the secrecy in government is a huge reason to the disconnect between the people having the power and the unelected deep state hoarding it.

I will be curious to see where this all goes.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:17 AM
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originally posted by: UKTruth
[
As for the campaign finance law point - that was nonsense pushed for a few days in a massive over reach on what the campaign finance laws are for and no one of sane mind believes that will meet any standard of criminal activity - even you it seems.


It's definitely not nonsense. There is certainly enough there to warrant further investigation. At the very least, there is a potential charge -- although like I said, I doubt this would drive the case.
edit on 7-8-2017 by Dudemo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:22 AM
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a reply to: Flatfish

If Putin himself delivered a box full of pictures of Hillary humping the corpse of Stalin to Trump Jr, there is still no crime. There is dirty politics. Unless you can explain the illegality to me, which is what I asked for to begin with.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:26 AM
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a reply to: network dude

Its quite telling when you ask for some input in understanding the Russian collusion angle and then you post this:



If Putin himself delivered a box full of pictures of Hillary humping the corpse of Stalin to Trump Jr, there is still no crime. There is dirty politics. Unless you can explain the illegality to me, which is what I asked for to begin with.


It just comes across as you wanted to start a thread not to inform you but rather to start a bit of a argument about the issue.

I have gave you my explanation think I might leave it at that.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:26 AM
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a reply to: network dude



Help me understand the Russian Collusion angle.

It's quite simple.

A farbricated witch-hunt that spawned from a bitter loss, only believed by the very gullible and misguided. Nothing more, nothing less.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:28 AM
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a reply to: network dude
From my understanding it could be argued with this angle.

If they start with the "gift" angle. The gift being WikiLeaks file releases. Then go into a further manipulation, they'd have something. To me its hard to prove unless you get those servers analyzed not from Hillary's cousin.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:28 AM
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There is no angle. After Kushner's questioning the consipiracy seemed to find itself dead in the water. The people have been duped.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:29 AM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: network dude

Its quite telling when you ask for some input in understanding the Russian collusion angle and then you post this:



If Putin himself delivered a box full of pictures of Hillary humping the corpse of Stalin to Trump Jr, there is still no crime. There is dirty politics. Unless you can explain the illegality to me, which is what I asked for to begin with.


It just comes across as you wanted to start a thread not to inform you but rather to start a bit of a argument about the issue.

I have gave you my explanation think I might leave it at that.


I think the challenge in the OP was pretty clear - to highlight the reasons the meeting Trump Jr had was criminal. You've failed in meeting that challenge so I understand you wanting to leave it at that.
edit on 7/8/2017 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:30 AM
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originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Dudemo5

the other cases seem to be individual, non-related instances of regular business coupled with stringent requirements to document any and all activity with foreign entities. (unless there is more to them than released so far)

Remember, this has been linked to Russia from the start, so everything has been investigated with that in mind and with the end goal of tying it to Russia in some form or fashion.

As I have said many times, when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.


Flynn was working as a Foreign agent on behalf of Turkey, which means he was being paid to seek outcomes beneficial for Turkey at the same time he was working on behalf of the American people.

As far as those conversations he failed to report, he may have violated the Logan Act.

The lies he told about the meetings were also a violation of federal law (U.S. Code 1001) related to making false statements.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:31 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
There is no angle. After Kushner's questioning the consipiracy seemed to find itself dead in the water. The people have been duped.


I particularly liked the revelation that after the election Kusher sent an email to seek confirmation on who the Russian Ambassador was after receiving congratulations ... quite the question given he was allegedly colluding with the Russians during the election



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 09:31 AM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I asked for the crime to be explained. You were happy to explain the conspiracy theory to me, and others were trying to tie this to campaign finance, which was a good effort, but already known and explained away. My example is hyperbole to explain my point. I understand if you cannot answer the question, but don't play drama queen in the process please.




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