Well this is interesting....

a reply to: ketsuko

I don't want to take anything from you. My personal belief is that you don't need a boss, your work is yours and you should reap 100% of the value of that work, not the whatever percent your boss deems it's worth minus the percent again for your healthcare and minus again your out of pocket healthcare expenses.

As far as taxes go... unless we want to return to the dark ages, there's things we need to collectively pay for. By shrinking the state we can minimize what those things are.

There exists a huge chasm between the
1% having more wealth than the 99%
and bread lines in the Soviet Union.

The 1% don't want you to know it but there's
a lot of wiggle room.

a reply to: Kali74

Yes, but clearly, we have not done enough to satisfy the socialists or else they wouldn't be agitating to take ever more for ever more so-called public goods.

It's one thing to say basic infrastructure - which we already can't afford to take care of ... or out right sucks as implemented ... but they want even more on top of those crumbling or poorly done things.

And I'm running at a 50% tax burden as it is once you start totaling up hidden taxes.

How much is enough?!

Without my economic freedom, the only things left I have to indulge are the base, crass pleasures of the flesh which is where libertinism comes in. I can drink, drug, and sex myself into oblivion because I don't have two pennies to rub together in order to go see interesting things or enjoy the seaside or visit family or anything else that might make life otherwise worthwhile.

a reply to: ketsuko

You're knee-jerking and not fully taking in what I'm saying, we believe this is the truest path to economic freedom. I'm pretty miserable right now and don't have the patience or where with all to explain differently or better, I apologize. Watch the vid if you can and or search the term. Noam Chomsky is a good source too, he's like our flag ship.

a reply to: MOMof3

I agree with your first sentence because they are completely contradicting themselves. The very nature of a libertarian socialist advocated anarchism specifically opposing authority. It's an extreme left wing ideology. They are nothing more than propagandist attempting to sew the seeds of confusion as you say.

It's your last sentence I don't understand. These aren't republicans changing ideological beliefs.

These are the lost, bewildered, confused, with no-place-to go leftists desperately searching for the identity they have never had.

The DSA is garbage and this "Libertarian-Socialist" caucus is the latest nonsense strategy they are using to try and assimilate more 'radical people' to join their "party"

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Kali74

Yes, you want to basically take away my economic freedom, and if I cannot have that, then I don't have my personal liberty protected. I have no liberty in personal property for example because you will need to make massive confiscations in the fruits of my labor in order to provide all those socialized things to everyone else.

And what if the products you provide prove to be sub-standard and I see that if I were allowed to keep the fruits of my labor, that I could provide better for myself?

But - it isn't all about you. It is about WE.

I imagine you believe 'economic freedom' means the 'right to private property' that you've 'earned on your own'. What about the 'economic rights' of others that don't have private property and are unable to 'earn' on their own for whatever reason.

I think 'economic freedom' is freedom from 'wage slavery' and 'fear'. The freedom from fear that poverty is always around the next corner - that no one has your back in times of old-age, sickness and death - which come to us all.

She your idea of economic freedom is the freedom to do whatever you want to get what you can rather then the freedom to live a life of value and worth on your own terms.

Freedom, to me, is the freedom to live my life on my terms - not yours. I've been fortunate to have the skills and health to provide for myself and my family but I know that it is just that LUCK not anything special about me. I also know that it can all be gone tomorrow... I'd rather pay in taxes and higher prices to ensure basic subsistence to all - but then I don't care to watch others suffer.

Pardon my distain.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Kali74


And I'm running at a 50% tax burden as it is once you start totaling up hidden taxes.

PROVE IT. You must have a lousy accountant.

What is your definition of 'economic freedom'. The 'freedom' to steal from We the People - sounds like.

My limited experience small business people (and about 100 small businesses) over thirty years has taught me that the more the 'owners' complain about the taxes they are paying - across the board (depending on your definition of 'taxes') are often the ones that are cheating their on said taxes (and cutting corners other places). The ones who run their businesses clean don't tend to complain that often (of course they grumble) or as loudly and - and- this is an important principle - and have a much more profitable and stable business then those that cut corners. And to top it off the honest business people have happier and less stressful lives. I bill well run businesses much less and will do more for honest client's. If the client's what to 'fudge' things, I charge more - for my stress and people pay it. I hate having to take jobs with 'cheats' but sometimes I do to make ends meet - that is not freedom. To me is the freedom to only work for those that have integrity in thought, word and deed in all areas of their lives. And I'm lucky - I do have some choice in the matter - most don't.

a reply to: Outlier13

Nah, it's pretty clear what's going on to the older crowd. You kids play the game. Should be interesting what label repubs come up with.

originally posted by: FyreByrd

But - it isn't all about you. It is about WE.

At least you admit it. Personal freedoms need to be curtailed for the greater good. Some of us don't like that.

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Kali74


And I'm running at a 50% tax burden as it is once you start totaling up hidden taxes.

PROVE IT. You must have a lousy accountant.

Since healthcare is a tax, add in what you pay for healthcare.
www.forbes.com...

There are numerous other hidden taxes as well.

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Kali74


And I'm running at a 50% tax burden as it is once you start totaling up hidden taxes.

PROVE IT. You must have a lousy accountant.

What is your definition of 'economic freedom'. The 'freedom' to steal from We the People - sounds like.

My limited experience small business people (and about 100 small businesses) over thirty years has taught me that the more the 'owners' complain about the taxes they are paying - across the board (depending on your definition of 'taxes') are often the ones that are cheating their on said taxes (and cutting corners other places). The ones who run their businesses clean don't tend to complain that often (of course they grumble) or as loudly and - and- this is an important principle - and have a much more profitable and stable business then those that cut corners. And to top it off the honest business people have happier and less stressful lives. I bill well run businesses much less and will do more for honest client's. If the client's what to 'fudge' things, I charge more - for my stress and people pay it. I hate having to take jobs with 'cheats' but sometimes I do to make ends meet - that is not freedom. To me is the freedom to only work for those that have integrity in thought, word and deed in all areas of their lives. And I'm lucky - I do have some choice in the matter - most don't.

I couldn't agree more.

a reply to: Kali74

Noam Chomsky is a trained linguist and not someone I would look to for economic advice.

If you really want to dig into economics, try a real economist like Thomas Sowell.

Look at the guy who built stairs in Canada for the park because the government wouldn't. The problem with your theory here is that you would cede your authority to do public projects like building the stairs to the socialist commission who would be much like the Canadian officials and waste all kinds of time and money doing it while the one private citizen does it much more quickly and cheaply because it needed doing.

But your way robs him of his economic freedom to do so by vesting all of that authority into the socialist commission. He could only build what they vest in him the power to build. And they would be neither quick nor cheap.

a reply to: FyreByrd

First there is federal tax. Then there is state tax. Then there is sales tax. We also have a local earnings tax. That's isn't counting gas tax and all the hidden fees tucked into all our bills we pay on things like utilities and cell phones that are really put there by federal and state entities. Then there are the withholdings that have nothing to do with direct federal and state taxes but are for social security and similar. We might as well consider health care to be a tax these days too thanks to ACA since I will be punished with a tax for not having it.

All those things add up.

originally posted by: Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Kali74


And I'm running at a 50% tax burden as it is once you start totaling up hidden taxes.

PROVE IT. You must have a lousy accountant.

What is your definition of 'economic freedom'. The 'freedom' to steal from We the People - sounds like.

My limited experience small business people (and about 100 small businesses) over thirty years has taught me that the more the 'owners' complain about the taxes they are paying - across the board (depending on your definition of 'taxes') are often the ones that are cheating their on said taxes (and cutting corners other places). The ones who run their businesses clean don't tend to complain that often (of course they grumble) or as loudly and - and- this is an important principle - and have a much more profitable and stable business then those that cut corners. And to top it off the honest business people have happier and less stressful lives. I bill well run businesses much less and will do more for honest client's. If the client's what to 'fudge' things, I charge more - for my stress and people pay it. I hate having to take jobs with 'cheats' but sometimes I do to make ends meet - that is not freedom. To me is the freedom to only work for those that have integrity in thought, word and deed in all areas of their lives. And I'm lucky - I do have some choice in the matter - most don't.

I couldn't agree more.

Over 50% of spending is to taxes for the average American.

a reply to: ketsuko

Noam Chomsky: Well, anarchism is, in my view, basically a kind of tendency in human thought which shows up in different forms in different circumstances, and has some leading characteristics. Primarily it is a tendency that is suspicious and skeptical of domination, authority, and hierarchy. It seeks structures of hierarchy and domination in human life over the whole range, extending from, say, patriarchal families to, say, imperial systems, and it asks whether those systems are justified. It assumes that the burden of proof for anyone in a position of power and authority lies on them. Their authority is not self-justifying. They have to give a reason for it, a justification. And if they can’t justify that authority and power and control, which is the usual case, then the authority ought to be dismantled and replaced by something more free and just. And, as I understand it, anarchy is just that tendency. It takes different forms at different times.

Anarcho-syndicalism is a particular variety of anarchism which was concerned primarily, though not solely, but primarily with control over work, over the work place, over production. It took for granted that working people ought to control their own work, its conditions, [that] they ought to control the enterprises in which they work, along with communities, so they should be associated with one another in free associations, and … democracy of that kind should be the foundational elements of a more general free society. And then, you know, ideas are worked out about how exactly that should manifest itself, but I think that is the core of anarcho-syndicalist thinking. I mean it’s not at all the general image that you described — people running around the streets, you know, breaking store windows — but [anarcho-syndicalism] is a conception of a very organized society, but organized from below by direct participation at every level, with as little control and domination as is feasible, maybe none.

AlterNet

You're stuck on the idea that we are statists, we aren't. We're for shrinking the state as much as possible. So, while some degree of public space management might exist there's no reason that a public works department should exist to use for public projects rather than going to a private entity.

You know how I know people are confused about what Libertarianism is? I have heard people say Paul Ryan is "Libertarian." Yeah, and I am the freaking Easter Bunny.

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: introvert

If you think socialism can protect "liberty," your idea of liberty is limited.

Socialism is an economic ideology. Liberty is protected by constitutional principles that limits the reach of others.

We can protect liberty and still achieve goals that benefit the collective economic good.

The constitution actually demands we contribute to the collective good.

Citation, please. Contribute != Being Taxed, and 'Collective Good' is up for debate.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
Over 50% of spending is to taxes for the average American.

Say What?

Not anywhere close. The average American's tax rate is 15%.

Not to mention, several states and localities have no income taxes.

If you are paying 50% in taxes, you are living well above average.

I live in a blue state, and we don't even have an income tax. I don't know anyone who pays 50% in taxes.

a reply to: Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Your mistake is thinking the only tax people pay is income tax. There are many many taxes, some hidden. Property Tax, sales tax, gas tax .. many many taxes. The average American will spend 50%-55% of their income on taxes.