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Moral Dilemma please help.

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posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 08:15 AM
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a reply to: Somethingsamiss

By you noticing these actions, God is sending you a direct message; Stand by and allow this to take place, or act on what you witnessed and YOU take over.

Perhaps this is your calling. The reason why you have cared for so long about the welfare of these people.
These are your people now, show them the light.




posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 08:23 AM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
The bible is very clear, judge him, firstly Christians are allowed to judge, not condemn, big difference
Also biblically, take your concern to the person who is doing the wrong thing, if he doesn't respond then to the elders, written down, get them to respond to you

Outside of doing that, if you feel like you must, take it to the law, they will judge him
If you did study theology then you know there is a biblical process, it's very clear


That is a noble process, but only if there are protective elders.

What do you do if there is only one elder, and they are corrupt?

I would NOT tell the pastor he's been found out. He may try to destroy our OP, slander his character or make it impossible for him to get work by sullying his reputation, etc.

Those willing to do wrong while pretending to be righteous often are very protective of themselves. It would be a survival instinct to destroy the person who has the power to destroy you and reveal your misdeeds.


edit on 5-8-2017 by AboveBoard because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 09:34 AM
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Pay a hooker to put him in a compromising position.
Get photos and audio.
Laugh all the way to the bank.



posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 10:38 AM
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a reply to: Macenroe82


These are your people now, show them the light.

Tempting. Tempting.

Kind of like Vernon Howell vs George Roden (1987-1989).



posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 10:41 AM
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originally posted by: AboveBoard

originally posted by: Raggedyman
The bible is very clear, judge him, firstly Christians are allowed to judge, not condemn, big difference
Also biblically, take your concern to the person who is doing the wrong thing, if he doesn't respond then to the elders, written down, get them to respond to you

Outside of doing that, if you feel like you must, take it to the law, they will judge him
If you did study theology then you know there is a biblical process, it's very clear


That is a noble process, but only if there are protective elders.

What do you do if there is only one elder, and they are corrupt?

I would NOT tell the pastor he's been found out. He may try to destroy our OP, slander his character or make it impossible for him to get work by sullying his reputation, etc.

Those willing to do wrong while pretending to be righteous often are very protective of themselves. It would be a survival instinct to destroy the person who has the power to destroy you and reveal your misdeeds.



I don't know if you are a christian ir not, if the op is a christian or not, but there is a du process according to scripture
What you say might happen, but there is a process

If the op doesn't accept scriptural direction, that's not my buisness
I just pointed it out

Maybe the minister will unload a full mag from an ak47, force the op in to a plane and drop him from 10000 feet, maybe even resign and give the op all the money

I don't know, I am just offering scriptual advice, simple?



posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 10:51 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

I was just thinking what a bad person would do if there was no one there to check their behavior, no higher authority than the individual themselves (no elders).

I don't know what this leader would do or not do if confronted, but I wouldn't assume he would be anything other than defensive, which could easily blow back on the OP. That's all I'm saying.

I'm certainly not trying to deny anyone their principles, their faith or their established procedures.

peace,
AB



posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 11:46 AM
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originally posted by: namelesss

originally posted by: Somethingsamiss
Hey ATS I'm facing a little bit of a moral dilemma. Long story short ... I am open to suggestions.

You most certainly are in the throws of a 'moral' dilemma.
Here's the problem;
(and you are not going to want to hear it. You have been warned.)
First, a bit about 'morality';

From a religious Perspective (and a dictionary), 'morality' is judging people/stuff as 'good' or 'bad/evil'!

This is exact manifestation of the stolen Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Sin of Pride/judgment) in the Garden!

As a Xtian (or any other religion), we are warned against 'judging' others;
"Judge not lest you be judged!"
Such judgment (good/evil) is the sin of 'pride'!
'Pride' is the only sin (from which all others spring), yet the hypocrites flaunt their practices, joyfully, proudly, in the face of their god!

You are told that;
"If you judge, judge with righteous judgment!"
Yet goes on to say that;
"None are righteous, no not one!"

While you are busy judging your preacher, busy finding dirt, did you ever wonder what might life be like if you put all that energy, all that passion, all that focus on your understanding of Jesus' teachings and living examples? You might have been Enlightened by now?
Yet here you are, in the depths of your ego/thoughts being all sinful, all Prideful, feeling all self-righteous and justified! Such sin blinds you to the damage that you cause to others, and the Universe, by such insane behavior!

I'm going to share a little known secret with you, here it is;
It is your 'thoughts' and 'feelings' (feelings are thoughts) that is the little red devil perched on your shoulder whispering into your ear! THAT is the devil!
Your blindness didn't know this, the ego doesn't want to confront/admit this, but 'believing' thoughts/feelings is insanity, inspiring such people to do unLoving (insane) things! Just look at what you are wanting to do just to suck down some warm fuzzy 'feelings'!
Even the Bible gets this right when it warns to NEVER 'believe' anything that you 'think' or 'feel'!

No one ever deliberately harms another unless he is infected with some 'belief' or other!

Jesus taught that the ONLY way that he could recognize a follower is by their unconditional Love!!

You sound as if you yet have to experience/Know that Love!

True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS Known by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (Charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!

From this unconditional Love one does not deal in sinful morality, but from Love comes 'ethics'!
'Ethics' is; "Do NOT do to others what you don't want done to you!"
And everyone and everything is 'others', and 'others' is Self!!

“Your task is not to seek for Love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” - Rumi

tat tvam asi (en.wikipedia.org...)





What a judgemental post full of hypocrisy 🙄



posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 11:47 AM
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OP ... you need to find a way to take this clown posing as a pastor down.

Do whatever it takes to expose greedy scum like him.



posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 12:03 PM
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Don't confront him. If he's into criminality this far, you might not be safe.

Leave. If this becomes a scandal in your area, your name and reputation will be associated with it.

Leave and then speak to the . of the board of directors. Let him tape it.

Leave it to the board of directors as to how to handle it. (Besides, they will want to fire him, and maybe make you the new director).



posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 01:31 PM
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a reply to: angeldoll

Well theres a problem with that. He is the board. He is a very shrewd man.



posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 02:15 PM
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Dilemma is misspelled ...there should be a silent "n" at the end, but that's for another thread.

As far as the tainted "man of god," there are many, many evil s.o.bs hiding under religion's skirts... doing the right thing is frequently the hardest thing one can do in this world. Most scoundrels fear an audit over a pillory. Good luck and I hope the unfortunates get back the charity stolen from them.



posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 02:31 PM
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a reply to: Somethingsamiss

While it is really good to get people off the streets and feed them and clothe them, the purpose is to help feed their souls too.

If the pastor is twisting scripture, that is not being done. Be in the world, not *of* the world.

So while they are getting their worldly needs cared for, they aren't being set on the path of the spirit properly at the same time. And if the mission pretends to be Christian, this is a part of its job.

Either it needs new leadership, or if this will utterly destroy it to take this man down, you maybe need to take the time and effort to see if there is another place that can do the work this place should be doing, a place these people can be directed to. At least then, you have given them an alternative to what was being provided that will feed them well in all ways, not just worldly ones.



posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 03:08 PM
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a reply to: Somethingsamiss

Is there a board of directors? If so, I would give them the info and let them decide what to do about the pastor.

Or if you want to really start a storm...send all your info to an investigative reporter, put it out into the public.



posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 05:12 PM
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a reply to: Somethingsamiss




(I'm and ordained minister seminary and everything, though not practicing. I realized that it was not what I wanted to do.)

Think of yourself as an off duty cop. You know what you should do.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understandings. In all your way acknowledged him an He will make your path straight. Proverbs 3:5-6

Gods good work is being done inspite of this clown. Trust that God can sustain this good work without him.
edit on 5-8-2017 by Observationalist because: Added biblical reference



posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 06:18 PM
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Another way to look at this:

All it takes for evil to win is for good men to do nothing.



posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 06:34 PM
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originally posted by: Somethingsamiss
a reply to: angeldoll

Well theres a problem with that. He is the board. He is a very shrewd man.


Oh shoot. Is there another board member you could speak to in confidence?



posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 10:14 PM
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If he is the entire board then he probably isn't the president of the company. Go to them, or the police. If he's breaking laws there are options.



posted on Aug, 5 2017 @ 11:01 PM
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a reply to: Somethingsamiss


He is the board. He is a very shrewd man.


Here you go: FBI Field Offices. Drop a dime on him.

FBI even has a brag story.
Oklahoma Pastor Embezzled Nearly $1 Million from Community Center


The long-time pastor of the Greater Cornerstone Baptist Church in Tulsa, Oklahoma was recently sentenced to 37 months in prison for embezzling close to $1 million from a community center he helped establish to aid the church’s struggling neighborhood.

Willard Leonard Jones essentially had an “open checkbook” for the church and community center accounts, said Special Agent Kevin Legleiter, who investigated the case with Forensic Accountant Janetta Maxwell from the FBI’s Oklahoma City Division. The two have partnered on financial fraud investigations for 20 years, and after following the paper trail in this case, there was no doubt of the reverend’s criminal activity.

“People trusted him and assumed he was doing the right thing,” Legleiter said. Instead, Jones used approximately $933,000 of community center money for his personal benefit—to pay his mortgage, buy luxury items like a Rolex watch, and to live a lavish lifestyle that included gambling and expensive hotel accommodations.

In 2004, Jones had the idea to build a community center not far from his church in a disadvantaged West Tulsa neighborhood called South Haven. The center would bring health care, a food and clothing bank, and other resources to the community. As the executive director of the Greater Cornerstone Community Development Project, Jones solicited donations from foundations, corporations, churches, and individuals—and raised about $7 million.



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 07:18 PM
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a reply to: Somethingsamiss

I have seen lots of men and women who use ministry as a job and they usually get paid by the organization. there must be an organization on file and it sounds like from what you described that it is a some sort of 501c Organization.

Does he hold a position in the organization that Pays him a salary?

Is it your normal Job to do book keeping that allows you to access the organizations IRS Statements?

From my experience if he is a saved man ( there are sometimes people who claim to be pastors but they are not saved individuals.

One of the best ways I have seen men like this get investigated and even charged with wrong doing is by giving it all to the Lord Jesus Christ in intercessory prayer. start praying for this man every minute you have even after you leave. You will see our Lord do a quick work on him if he is saved. If he is not saved the Lord will bring him down without the need of you even telling the IRS.

You can leave or you can stay because if this man goes down there will be the need for someone to continue the work in helping the homeless and hungry.

I have seen Prayer really work especially in situations like this.

I will be praying for the Holy Ghost to do his work on him to be convicted of his sin and that the whole thing will be revealed openly and he will have to resign repay and do time if necessary. But God knows just what to do in this situation we'll put it in his hands. So be prepared to take over if necessary.

God bless you and give you strength to stay and help those poor and down and out people.

Praying with you.


edit on 7-8-2017 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2017 @ 10:18 PM
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originally posted by: Sheye

originally posted by: namelesss

originally posted by: Somethingsamiss
Hey ATS I'm facing a little bit of a moral dilemma. Long story short ... I am open to suggestions.

You most certainly are in the throws of a 'moral' dilemma.
Here's the problem;
(and you are not going to want to hear it. You have been warned.)
First, a bit about 'morality';

From a religious Perspective (and a dictionary), 'morality' is judging people/stuff as 'good' or 'bad/evil'!

This is exact manifestation of the stolen Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Sin of Pride/judgment) in the Garden!

As a Xtian (or any other religion), we are warned against 'judging' others;
"Judge not lest you be judged!"
Such judgment (good/evil) is the sin of 'pride'!
'Pride' is the only sin (from which all others spring), yet the hypocrites flaunt their practices, joyfully, proudly, in the face of their god!

You are told that;
"If you judge, judge with righteous judgment!"
Yet goes on to say that;
"None are righteous, no not one!"

While you are busy judging your preacher, busy finding dirt, did you ever wonder what might life be like if you put all that energy, all that passion, all that focus on your understanding of Jesus' teachings and living examples? You might have been Enlightened by now?
Yet here you are, in the depths of your ego/thoughts being all sinful, all Prideful, feeling all self-righteous and justified! Such sin blinds you to the damage that you cause to others, and the Universe, by such insane behavior!

I'm going to share a little known secret with you, here it is;
It is your 'thoughts' and 'feelings' (feelings are thoughts) that is the little red devil perched on your shoulder whispering into your ear! THAT is the devil!
Your blindness didn't know this, the ego doesn't want to confront/admit this, but 'believing' thoughts/feelings is insanity, inspiring such people to do unLoving (insane) things! Just look at what you are wanting to do just to suck down some warm fuzzy 'feelings'!
Even the Bible gets this right when it warns to NEVER 'believe' anything that you 'think' or 'feel'!

No one ever deliberately harms another unless he is infected with some 'belief' or other!

Jesus taught that the ONLY way that he could recognize a follower is by their unconditional Love!!

You sound as if you yet have to experience/Know that Love!

True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS Known by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (Charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!

From this unconditional Love one does not deal in sinful morality, but from Love comes 'ethics'!
'Ethics' is; "Do NOT do to others what you don't want done to you!"
And everyone and everything is 'others', and 'others' is Self!!

“Your task is not to seek for Love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” - Rumi

tat tvam asi (en.wikipedia.org...)





What a judgemental post full of hypocrisy 🙄

Look up; 'projection'.
Too much Truth for the ego to handle at the moment? No problem, the seeds have been planted, the rest is no concern of mine. What you needed to hear has been said.


Have a nice night!



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