Why Do I Post Here?

a reply to: Astrocyte

I believe that if we can situate the suffering of one another before one another, we can bring such a healing to ourselves that we will realize that healing STARTS with the human – not God. God may indeed be true, for now, let us move according to science and NOT MYSTICISM, as the latter, it seems, provokes intense existential feelings of alienation.

How does it provoke that? ....... Mysticism is about attempting to understand the reality of life's mysterious forces and their psychology / spiritual effects on human life..... Even if you eliminated "mysticism" you can never eliminate the mystics... they live in every person who has found true love... which can cause alienation between those who have experienced it and those who have not.... but you need to recognise something... this alienation, actually inspires others to seek that true love for themselves.... some find it, some do not... but it's a natural process... so you cannot move people away from mysticism... it's part of human nature...

Religion on the other hand, is the attempt to enfranchise mysticism, and is not part of human nature... this is something we can and should move away from.... and people do all the time... they move towards rationality, but they also move towards mysticism... there's not conflict of interest between the two, infact rationality i believe is essential for navigating the many challenging experiences mysticism can present... without rationality in mysticism you get religion... and without mysticism in rationality, you get nihilism.

originally posted by: 0racle
a reply to: Astrocyte

I believe that if we can situate the suffering of one another before one another, we can bring such a healing to ourselves that we will realize that healing STARTS with the human – not God. God may indeed be true, for now, let us move according to science and NOT MYSTICISM, as the latter, it seems, provokes intense existential feelings of alienation.

How does it provoke that? ....... Mysticism is about attempting to understand the reality of life's mysterious forces and their psychology / spiritual effects on human life..... Even if you eliminated "mysticism" you can never eliminate the mystics... they live in every person who has found true love... which can cause alienation between those who have experienced it and those who have not.... but you need to recognise something... this alienation, actually inspires others to seek that true love for themselves.... some find it, some do not... but it's a natural process... so you cannot move people away from mysticism... it's part of human nature...

Religion on the other hand, is the attempt to enfranchise mysticism, and is not part of human nature... this is something we can and should move away from.... and people do all the time... they move towards rationality, but they also move towards mysticism... there's not conflict of interest between the two, infact rationality i believe is essential for navigating the many challenging experiences mysticism can present... without rationality in mysticism you get religion... and without mysticism in rationality, you get nihilism.

I think that with alienation/isolation (unhealthy state of being) those human needs which are felt as important (physical/social/psychological/spiritual - conscious or unrealized subconscious) would be sought after via religion/cult/unhealthy offline or online activities; not necessarily social forums, but that would depend on intent.

How rationality can be utilized within these realms may be a daunting task as rationality is based on facts, and facts can be right one day then wrong the next due to other perceived facts (repeatable studies) as we see here on this forum with every day discussions and arguments.

As for mysticism in rationality, we so far have come up with rational mysticism which appears to be the marriage of religion and science, excluding paranormal, psychic and all other altered states of being.

@ Astrocyte...as for relationality, I believe you are on the right track and we may want to look deeper here.

wiki.p2pfoundation.net...

a reply to: InTheLight

I think that with alienation/isolation (unhealthy state of being) those human needs which are felt as important (physical/social/psychological/spiritual - conscious or unrealized subconscious) would be sought after via religion/cult/unhealthy offline or online activities;

Yeah.... actually, I was thinking to replace "religion" with "obsession"... or relgion / obsession... because.. actually religion is obsession with the essence of mysticism... or "God"... you know?

Whether you have experienced true love directly or indirectly, through the mystics and lovers themselves, we know it exists... And, it can lead to obsession... for both the lovers, and the seekers of love... i think that leads to religion... or the many forms of nihilism we see in culture... When the lover has too much mysticism (emotional obsession) rational thinking is atrophied.... and when the seeker of love has too much rationality (logical obsession), mystical thinking is atrophied...

Rationality in mysticism is simply a counter-balance to the pitfalls of emotional obsessions...
And mysticism in rationality is simply the counter-balance to the pitfalls of logical obsessions...
Everything is about balance and harmony.
But...
It's never easy...

I dont think.

a reply to: 0racle

Yet, how can balance and harmony be achieved when those religious mystics' believe they were created in the image of God, and nobody knowing what the image of God (not physical) really is, and, therefore, what we are suppose to be striving/stumbling and falling towards? Obsession from confusion and/or letting others' lead the way?

As for nihilism, I think that comes with the realization (or belief) that without possessing great political/financial power, an individual is helpless in affecting change. But is this really true? Do we as individuals, once no longer divided/separated from each other, still lack power to affect change? Perhaps the lack of desire is the prevailing reason with most of us, or that inner voice/programming keeping us in our place, due to isolation, confusion, exhaustion, and emotional escape?

a reply to: InTheLight

Hmm those are good questions... The reality is, we create karma... and extremes do exist.. we create them... and unfortunately, some humans are born into extremes... actually... it's extremely common... and rarely recognized...
The frustrations it causes though are widely acknowledged, studied and talked about...

What i mean is... sometimes we are born so far in one extreme that the natural forces... (and they are natural forces) that provide counter-balance are rarely encountered.. so we don't even perceive how imbalanced we are, or recognize the extreme karmas we and / or others create around us.

Obsession from lack of discipline... or integrity... or honest intentions... It's easy to over analyse from a sociological perspective the very basic, very common, subjective mistakes that impact us on a societal level, when in truth they are originally the mistakes of lone individuals whose karma had a larger impact than most.
For example... if an anorexic mother wanders out into a desert, where there is barely any food or water.. her obsession with food has led her to think this situation is acceptable.. but if she gives birth to children in this place... and they too become extremely underweight...
It is the karma of her obsession they are experiencing... not their own... but it still affects them...

About the image of "God" ... it's like true love... only those who have encountered the face of true love (in the face of a lover)... and the feeling, knows what it looks like... But those who have not experienced it directly, through encountering the mystics and lovers, perceive that it does exist... and through these encounters (hopefully from a young age) gain insights about what conditions lead to experiencing true love and how they must live in order to one day experience it...it requires a lot of intelligence / rationality... or amazing luck... / karma...

I don't think nihilism is about feeling powerless to change things... i think nihilism is about feeling that you do not have the power to change your experience of life... or the lives of other people... so yes it is about feeling powerless to change society, because with the realisation that you are infinitely powerful as a human being... you know that anything is possible... and there is no longer any fear about attempting to make changes in oneself or others... but it first comes from the recognition that you as an individual have the power to be free.

If one really wants to relate to the value of a religion, one need to immerse.

So to all concerned? What do you know of Jacobs Ladder...?

Jacob left Beersheba, and went toward Haran. He came to the place and stayed there that night, because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones of the place, he put it under his head and lay down in that place to sleep. And he dreamed, and behold, there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven; and behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it! And behold, the Lord stood above it [or "beside him"] and said, "I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your descendants; and your descendants shall be like the dust of the earth, and you shall spread abroad to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and by you and your descendants shall all the families of the earth bless themselves. Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done that of which I have spoken to you." Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, "Surely the Lord is in this place; and I did not know it." And he was afraid, and said, "This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.

en.wikipedia.org...'s_Ladder

Myself I am Multidenominational.

a reply to: Astrocyte


Have you ever heard of the Desert Fathers?


christdesert.org...

Your an intellectual master debater, that likes to have intelligent conversation s, whether it with others or even just yourself.

Hope your not that mad...

An issue would be whether or not matter that expresses awareness is translatable in the perspective of the wave aspect in particle/wave duality. Implied is that in respect to our matter form. That relevant wave function allows for conscious experiences due to how it replicates in exacting order that potential in relation to its particle aspect to its wave state. So that the electrical/chemical processes of the Brain. Are relevant to how our bodies function as a wave form, in respect. That allows us to interact consciously, with reality, from the perspective of a wave state.

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: Astrocyte


You seem to present that your background is consistent with that of a Clinical Psychologist. But at the same time an inconsistency in relation to your OP is relatable to why we stopped using the term Manic/Depressive and now refer to the
condition as Bipolar Disorder.


Despite your efforts to express the idea that you are well educated but, you apparently do not understand the difference and its implications.

Which is really strange to me because I do.

Its kind of like your father was a person who smoked cigarettes (you also developed the habit) and in your 50's you tell your doctor its your fathers fault you have cancer.

So is this your way of saying " I am right, you are wrong " ?

You came into the thread to criticize and attack the op instead of looking for a conversation and or to try and understand the perspective presented.

It's quite ironic considering the op is looking to create a dialogue without the restraints of religious zealotry and preconceived notions of intellect.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed



Actually a rather large mistake in interpreting history is believing that words had the same meaning.

It is a mistake made often by those who are less educated in the felids being discussed.


Actually my point is religion acts as a doorway and while there are some that would take systems of belief for how its expressed superficially? Investigating beyond such assumption bring up documentation that in and of themselves offer
a valid conclusion that presents a Developmental experience to comprehending Spirituality in an altogether way.


The OP seems to misunderstand that what we perceive of reality is completely the result of internal experiences. In that sense and in consideration as to cause that suggests that our ability experience spirituality is not really different than learning how to walk or how to talk.

Any thoughts?

I have a question Astrocyte that I'd really like an answer to; is suffering a physical state, or a mental one?

Already know how you'd answer that-- that physical and mental states are one and the same, which seems to be true. In that case, why no end to our suffering? If it's as simple as "adopt this healthy mindset, and treat your body well", shouldn't that be enough? But it's not enough, and you know that. You know the problem lies in existence itself.

a reply to: Kashai

Thoughts I have those sometimes then they disappear like money does out of my bank account.

Perhaps I may have jumped to conclusions about your stance on the subject.

I would agree entirely that our views are molded by our personal experience and circumstances.

Personally I am not at all religious ( I mean human based religion Like Christianity) , I do however believe there is far more to this life than the physical I just haven't managed to grasp what it is exactly.

a reply to: Talorc

Who says it's not enough?

People who haven't tried hard enough.

a reply to: 0racle

Fool.... tell the impoverished children or people in war-torn countries that they're just "not trying hard enough."

a reply to: Talorc

Damn right I will.. when they feel the world is against them... and they are hungry thirsty, dying... in the dirt and the dust... I will say that... but i will say it so they know that someone loves them... someone values their existence... someone cares for their survival... it takes a lot of self discipline to survive adversity... knowing that someone loves values your survival and existence in those circumstances can be very important... of course i will tell them you're not trying hard enough... so that they at least have some doubt about the overwhelming hopelessness all the negativity in this world has made them feel... and that maybe there is something more meaningful to life... something more joyful... something to feel optimistic about ... even if they don't know what is it... or remember.. they at least have some doubt about the way their life currently is... it will give them something to focus on ... to meditate on .. and feel more peaceful and emboldenned as they strive towards that goal.. trying harder can mean everything...

don't throw the word fool around as if you have any idea about what this life is about