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The capitalist spectacle of LGBT* Pride is the death cry of radical politics

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posted on Jul, 28 2017 @ 11:13 PM
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a reply to: TacSite18

It is a logical fallacy to attack the person making the argument rather than addressing the argument though.

Instead of thinking about the merits of the subject being discussed, you simply dismiss it because you think the person making it is without merit as a person.

That is a logical fallacy and loses the debate for you because you have no argument.

Sir Isaac Newton devoted a great deal of time to researching the End of Days and Biblical Prophecy and alchemy - subjects many would today dismiss as lunacy, and yet, I doubt you would use that fact to summarily dismiss his discovery of the three laws of motion or the discovery of his law of universal gravitation. But that is essentially the equivalent of what you are attempting here.

You want to prove the argument in the article is fallacious or nuts? Discuss and show us why.




posted on Jul, 28 2017 @ 11:20 PM
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We once HAD to be proud of ourselves for what we were, simply to counter the hate and abuse heaped on us. Do not confuse that with the modern bullsht. You stated, or quoted and it is correct that it is not business which has hijacked this sentiment but it is the same people who virtue signal to the other virtue signalers who have.

The whole thing was born out of hardship and it was a well-won war. The marches were initially real battles. Even existing was was a struggle - it was against the law to be what you couldn't help being and doing what you were naturally attracted to do.

The victors have been usurped by people foreign even to us - a demographic barely any of us understand or grasp the concept of because they are not us. They are the perpetually outraged and they do not speak for me and this is what most gay people will tell you as well.



posted on Jul, 29 2017 @ 05:11 AM
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a reply to: GusMcDangerthing



The victors have been usurped by people foreign even to us - a demographic barely any of us understand or grasp the concept of because they are not us. They are the perpetually outraged and they do not speak for me and this is what most gay people will tell you as well.


As an average guy who just happens to be solely attracted to men I agree. They are foreign to me as well and do not speak for me. I went to London Pride in the 80s and early 90s as there was something to stand up for - equal rights. In the UK we now have those rights.

In my opinion the Pride march should be about 2 things: remembering the historical fight for freedom/equality and demonstrating against the inhumane treatment of homosexuals in parts of the world. We don't need a celebration parade or demanding the validation of the majority. We are NOT special.



posted on Jul, 29 2017 @ 08:30 AM
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okay i think this topic requires a bit more nuanced discussion than it's likely to get remotely close to on ATS, but what the heck i've got a bit of time so let's try this;

have you thought about the way that you're a self confessed 'average guy who just happens to be attracted to guys' and the commodification of pride culture are actually totally linked?
not you personally, i mean, but it's a fact that if you're otherwise unremarkable, demographically speaking - if you're white, educated, and not totally poverty stricken - it's now socially completely acceptable to be gay [so long as you're not TOO loud about it]. and with that, you've become a valid niche market for the corporations to explore.
Now that it's fine for average dudes [and average girls if they're pretty] to be gay, the pressure has come off pride and it's become one big happy carnival of being sold the same # as everyone else but with rainbows on.

the REAL ironic thing is that pride - the original pride, the battle - is still sorely needed in this world.
i get the distinct impression from your posts that You've Got Yours, Screw The Rest
but have you seen, for example, the way trans people are being talked about on this very website right this minute?
that's just the first [and most personal] example off the top of my head.
i don't want to get bogged down in that, point is we've got a long, long, loooong way to go before there's any sort of real equality.
and i totally agree, the capitalist spectre wearing rainbow pyjamas is unnecessary and a little on the nose
but you gotta remember, it's LGBT..... not just G.



posted on Jul, 29 2017 @ 09:05 AM
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a reply to: continuousThunder

How dare you speak to us like we didn't suffer and fight and work hard for what we have? We faced real opposition and real battles. Don't you dare compare what we fought for with this new version of poncy, uptight virtue signalers who wouldn't recognize real struggle and hardship if it slapped them in their snobbish faces.

Do you know that these people called for the 'G' to be removed from LGBT because it represents males and males are privileged? You know what? That's actually fine by me because they have taken my struggles and appropriated it for themselves and their own bizarre little game.

It has nothing to do with us having got what we wanted and then just walking away and everything to do with the movement having been hijacked insidiously and then very blatantly by scumbags and cretins. The good thing is it's actually very easy to recognize them so I'd say wipe your glasses if you haven't noticed it.

Why must anyone be loud about being gay these days? There's simply no need for it in most places. Are straight people loud about being straight? Here in Australia we are yet to pass same sex marriage into law but it's not far off. If you feel that strongly then may I suggest you take your concerns to places like Uganda or one of the muslim theocracies where yes, it really is needed. You can have a chat with them about gender equality while you're at it.







edit on 29-7-2017 by GusMcDangerthing because: my spelling



posted on Jul, 29 2017 @ 09:10 AM
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a reply to: Morrad

While any "politics" can go to extremes (and become that which it hates at its origin) your "excellent article" is little more than rehashed, garden-variety right-wing nonsense.

The real issue for many of you is that Pride has become so mainstream; this is the whine that accompanies the cheese of your cited article.

Aside from that reality at the core of this "argument" there is little more than postmodern, pseudo-Marxist academic jargoneering here.

Glad you enjoyed it; I'm sure it strokes your own prejudices. It does little more.



posted on Jul, 29 2017 @ 11:32 AM
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originally posted by: GusMcDangerthing
The whole thing was born out of hardship and it was a well-won war. The marches were initially real battles.


Quite the hardship, being fathered by a man who hates vaginas.. Or being incubated in a mans anus. Sorry Im not sure how it works? Being born gay? A gay birth?

Or why Bill Nyience agrees with passing on those destructive genes? What will happen when the Alpha male Silverback abandons his harem and just starts humping the other males? Thank God for Nyience, they will get federal funding to implant wombs in all the male gorillas, and special re-education programs to lesbianize the females!

The answer to over population? Is that why self fornication is promoted? Is that why social security has replaced physical superiority as a breeding trait females should desire? Life is now temporary? After millions and billions of years of hard work, we need to unnaturalize the process? Stupid nature. Didn't give me a womb so i have to fork over money to adoption agencies to get my play things!



posted on Jul, 29 2017 @ 11:34 AM
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a reply to: continuousThunder

You have made false assumptions about me although I know how easy it is to do that on an online forum. I support transexuals' rights although I stopped participating in transgender threads after a 3 month break from ATS.

I believe this demographic should have its own political movement (ie severed from LGB and distanced from intersectional feminists who use them as mere puppets). GusMcDangerthing mentioned the call for G to be removed from LGBT. It is intersectional feminists who actively want this.

Sexuality and gender are not related and I think it causes confusion to joe public.

This news article from a female to male transexual explains the confusion.


I am transgender. That means I was born with female genitalia and socialised as a woman. My brain had other ideas.

Before I came out, I was attracted to women. Being ‘female’ that made me a lesbian.

Now I’m transitioning to male, I’m still attracted to women, so that makes me heterosexual.

If I was attracted to men, I’d be gay.

See how that works? See how you can be transgender and gay, or lesbian, or straight, or bisexual? One does not equal the other.


Lee Hurley points out that the LGB battle is either won or nearly won in the western world. The transgender battle is only just beginning.

Why it’s time to remove the T from LGBT

In Iran, gay men and teenagers are hung by a noose and suspended until they die. In Saudi Arabia, gay men often have their head chopped off without a fair trial. The authorities deliberately attach the crime of paedophilia to make these beheadings more acceptable to the Western world. In Chechnya, gay men are being rounded up, tortured and often murdered. This is my demographic and the one I actively chose to fight for.




posted on Jul, 29 2017 @ 11:43 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

Your post contains nothing of real value to discuss and as for my so-called prejudices, you don't even know me.



posted on Jul, 29 2017 @ 12:05 PM
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Brendan O'Neill is a controversy-whore who alights upon provocative issues and milks them for all they are worth. Generally, his schtick is to take something that has the appearance of being positive, and explain why it is in fact negative. Or vice-versa. He's like a bargain-basement Christopher Hitchens (without the alcoholic megalomania or literary abilities). He's an entertaining gadfly at times, but not worth taking very seriously, unless you value sheer contrariness for its own sake.

It's true that gay pride events have been 'mainstreamed' to a certain degree. So what? O'Neill seems to have leaped from one idea (the progress made re: gay rights) to another (the demise of radical politics) without much in the way of demonstrating a link between the two.

Denigrating a triumph for once-radical politics as representing the death of radical politics is typical O'Neill posturing. He could have written the same article 100 years ago, about the suffrage movement instead.

All this really shows, imho, is that O'Neill is completely out of touch with the radical political ideas of today - of which there are plenty.



posted on Jul, 29 2017 @ 01:26 PM
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a reply to: Morrad

Hello morrad.

thank you for IMO the most thought-provoking and salient thread i have seen on this site in ages.

i am a homo and have been increasingly at a loss to explain why i have dropped out of the "community". your article should be required reading for our modern effed-up society.

BTW, even the folks who have responded in kind to your OP don't appear to really get it. they say they "agree" and then proceed to paint their own personal narcissistic utopia.

wierd and sad.

and ugly.



posted on Jul, 29 2017 @ 02:59 PM
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a reply to: audubon

I beg to disagree. I believe Brendan cuts through a lot of contemporary progressive waffle. He also defends free speech vociferously. I think some of Brendan's views fit nicely into conspiracy theory, particularly the creeping powers of an increasingly totalitarian state in the UK.

The link is the change from the pursuit of liberty to a need for external validation. Identity politics is considered radical although I agree with Brendan, it isn't politics, its therapy.

I also like Christopher Hitchens. If I recall correctly, he is one of Les Misanthrope's favourite writers.



posted on Jul, 29 2017 @ 03:09 PM
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a reply to: tgidkp

Thank you for the compliment, someone on my wavelength.




posted on Jul, 29 2017 @ 03:21 PM
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originally posted by: Morrad
a reply to: audubon

I beg to disagree. I believe Brendan cuts through a lot of contemporary progressive waffle. He also defends free speech vociferously.


Anyone can cut through waffle. The distinction comes from having something useful to show at the end of the process. If you don't have something useful to show for it, then you're a butcher rather than a brain surgeon.

You're right about him being passionate about free speech, and in principle that's a good thing. Although I can't help feeling that this might be a 'crybully' tactic in that Mr O'Neill sometimes claims he is being censored or silenced by people who actually just disagree vehemently with what he's arguing at any given point.

Which is ironic when you consider that perhaps the defining moment of Mr O'Neill's career came just weeks after the Jimmy Savile scandal first broke open, when he published a column telling Savile's victims to just shut up about the whole thing.

The more you think about the implications of what he is saying there, the more toxic it gets. Give it five minutes for the true awfulness to soak in.



posted on Jul, 29 2017 @ 08:01 PM
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originally posted by: BigBangWasAnEcho

originally posted by: GusMcDangerthing
The whole thing was born out of hardship and it was a well-won war. The marches were initially real battles.


Quite the hardship, being fathered by a man who hates vaginas.. Or being incubated in a mans anus. Sorry Im not sure how it works? Being born gay? A gay birth?

Or why Bill Nyience agrees with passing on those destructive genes? What will happen when the Alpha male Silverback abandons his harem and just starts humping the other males? Thank God for Nyience, they will get federal funding to implant wombs in all the male gorillas, and special re-education programs to lesbianize the females!

The answer to over population? Is that why self fornication is promoted? Is that why social security has replaced physical superiority as a breeding trait females should desire? Life is now temporary? After millions and billions of years of hard work, we need to unnaturalize the process? Stupid nature. Didn't give me a womb so i have to fork over money to adoption agencies to get my play things!


What?



posted on Jul, 30 2017 @ 05:17 AM
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a reply to: audubon

I have been following O'Neill since 2015 so was not aware of this article. I know he can go off the rails sometimes and I don't agree with everything he writes. I wrote in an earlier thread that he often challenges my thinking, as do most of the writers of Spiked.

I don't want to turn my thread into the analysis of O'Neill's character as this isn't relevant to my thread (see Ketsuko's post above). If you want to start a thread on this subject I would be more than happy to participate.



posted on Jul, 30 2017 @ 07:17 AM
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originally posted by: Morrad
I don't want to turn my thread into the analysis of O'Neill's character as this isn't relevant to my thread (see Ketsuko's post above).


Just to be quite clear, I have no idea whether Brendan O'Neill in person is like the "Brendan O'Neill" persona presented in his columns. Frankly I hope not but sometimes it's difficult to tell. At any rate I was looking at his output, not at his character.



posted on Jul, 30 2017 @ 08:08 AM
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a reply to: audubon

I was referring to his online character and I believe you are being both pedantic and condescending. You are also contradicting yourself.



At any rate I was looking at his output, not at his character.




Brendan O'Neill is a controversy-whore who alights upon provocative issues and milks them for all they are worth.




He's like a bargain-basement Christopher Hitchens (without the alcoholic megalomania or literary abilities).


Your opinion of O'Neill is just a value judgement, not a statement of fact. I respect your opinion but do not agree with it.




edit on 30-7-2017 by Morrad because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 30 2017 @ 09:08 AM
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originally posted by: Morrad
a reply to: audubon

I was referring to his online character and I believe you are being both pedantic and condescending. You are also contradicting yourself.


That's just a value judgement and while I can respect it, I do not agree with it.




posted on Jul, 30 2017 @ 09:12 AM
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originally posted by: Morrad
a reply to: Gryphon66

Your post contains nothing of real value to discuss and as for my so-called prejudices, you don't even know me.







I don't have to know you personally, I know what you wrote here, which is what I commented on.

You choose not to comment in return (aside from a snivelling little "I'm not going to comment" comment) because you realize that I cut to the heart of the several issues with your cited article to wit: it's the same old right-wing talking points rehashed in academic jargon.

As long as you are using politically-charged buzzwords, you're not getting past anything: you're participating in the "waffle."

Drop the narrative, and the dismissive tone, and perhaps you'll make some progress.

/shrug
edit on 30-7-2017 by Gryphon66 because: Noted



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